The Future of the IS Thread

[F1 Silver Arrows]

I also haven't seen an acceleration video of the LS500. I've seen the LS500H but I want to see how fast the TTV6 goes.

 

[spwolf]

C43 is now up to 385hp and BMW has 355hp+ versions of their I6, and the list goes on. By the time Lexus introduces the IS, 400hp will be the norm for top end performance models. Furthermore, Lexus engines haven't exactly been meeting their manufacturer quoted performance numbers, so what Lexus deems as 416hp will probably be competitive with everyone else who is around 370-385hp.

i dont think IS500 would be priced the same as german "top end performance" model.

And are we really complaining that future IS500 has only 416hp? Thats silly.

 

[spwolf]

It's a standard longitudinal AWD system with a transaxle that creates a 50-50 split, all open diffs. At least that's true for the Crown Hybrid AWD. Not sure if the LS Hybrid AWD gets torsen or other devices allowing non-even/dynamic torque split.

new crown hybrid (300h) has torsen lsd:

It is full time 4WD which can demonstrate the high performance of 2.5L hybrid system in various running scenes and road conditions. With the use of the center-diff installed full-time 4WD, the power of the 2.5L dynamic force engine is completely transmitted to the road surface, further improving the unique response and smooth acceleration of the hybrid car. On the other hand, coupled with the synergistic effect with low center of gravity FR platform based on TNGA, excellent running stability has been realized. In addition, Tolsen ® LSD * 2, which has been made smaller and lighter, is adopted for transfer that distributes rich power to front and rear wheels . Normally, torque of front and rear wheels is distributed at 40:60, and torque is distributed instantaneously from 30:70 to 50:50 to front and rear wheels according to driving conditions. In any situation, it brings a natural and dynamic maneuvering sensation.

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

i dont think IS500 would be priced the same as german "top end performance" model.

And are we really complaining that future IS500 has only 416hp? Thats silly.

My thoughts exactly. I don't know why people are accusing Lexus of overrating their cars. They are usually on point for performance measurements when it comes to ideal/close to ideal conditions. And that was when they were naturally aspirated engines. Now that they have turbochargers, they can make such claims and easily hit their claimed performance numbers, or even go significantly better than their claimed numbers (they've already been doing that for most of their performance oriented models already). I am discounting the turbocharged 4-cylinder in cars like the NX or RC, because that's a first attempt in a long time to make a turbocharged engine to get the best of both worlds for performance and fuel economy. I have full trust in them that they would make their goal.

As for the LS, the 4.6 second claim is probably legitimate. It all matters down to specification, conditions of the weather (though this should affect turbocharged cars less than naturally aspirated variants), equipment to measure, etc.

416 horsepower in an IS should be able to walk away with no effort against competitors like the M340i, C43 AMG, XE35t, ATS V-Sport, S4. Even if they try to add more power and torque, it won't be able to match the engineering design of the 4IS. The engine, transmission, chassis (which includes steering, suspension, stiffness, etc.) of the new Lexus vehicles have gotten stellar reviews worldwide and are proof that it will be untouchable for the foreseeable future. You guys are also forgetting a major point. Lexus' (except for the RC) are much lighter vehicles than the competition. With the new TNGA platform under the new IS, they will be able to shred unnecessary weight while also adding crucial updates. Even if they make the 4IS close to the size of the current 4GS, with the materials that they are using for weight reduction (although expensive), they will still be ahead of the competition; just like the 2IS was.

I just hope it goes the way I mentioned......

 

[sl0519]

Lexus' (except for the RC) are much lighter vehicles than the competition.

I wouldn't make that claim based on LS's figure...
Take a look

Official figure
BMW 740i xDrive: 4361 lb; 0-60: 5.1 sec
https://www.bmwusa.com/vehicles/7-series/sedan/740i-sedan/specifications.html
Lexus LS 500 AWD: 4707 lb; 0-60: 4.6 sec
https://www.lexus.com/models/LS/specifications

Car and driver figure
BMW 740i RWD: 4385 lb; 0-60: 4.8 sec
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2016-bmw-740i-long-term-test-review
Lexus LS 500 AWD: 4977 lb; 0-60: 5.0 sec
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2018-lexus-ls500-f-sport-awd-test-review

 

[spwolf]

I wouldn't make that claim based on LS's figure...
Take a look

Official figure
BMW 740i xDrive: 4361 lb; 0-60: 5.1 sec
https://www.bmwusa.com/vehicles/7-series/sedan/740i-sedan/specifications.html
Lexus LS 500 AWD: 4707 lb; 0-60: 4.6 sec
https://www.lexus.com/models/LS/specifications

Car and driver figure
BMW 740i RWD: 4385 lb; 0-60: 4.8 sec
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2016-bmw-740i-long-term-test-review
Lexus LS 500 AWD: 4977 lb; 0-60: 5.0 sec
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2018-lexus-ls500-f-sport-awd-test-review

sadly C&D forbid EU users on their site...can you copy and paste other performance measurement and also real mpg from their test?

 

[sl0519]

sadly C&D forbid EU users on their site...can you copy and paste other performance measurement and also real mpg from their test?

complete test data uploaded​

Spoiler

740i

VEHICLE TYPE: front-engine, rear-wheel-drive, 5-passenger, 4-door sedan

PRICE AS TESTED: $96,095 (base price: $82,295)

ENGINE TYPE: turbocharged and intercooled DOHC 24-valve inline-6, aluminum block and head, direct fuel injection

Displacement: 183 cu in, 2998 cc
Power: 320 hp @ 6500 rpm
Torque: 330 lb-ft @ 1380 rpm

TRANSMISSION: 8-speed automatic with manual shifting mode

DIMENSIONS:
Wheelbase: 126.4 in
Length: 206.6 in
Width: 74.9 in Height: 58.2 in
Passenger volume: 115 cu ft
Cargo volume: 18 cu ft
Curb weight: 4385 lb

PERFORMANCE: NEW
Zero to 60 mph: 4.8 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 12.4 sec
Zero to 130 mph: 21.6 sec
Rolling start, 5-60 mph: 5.6 sec
Top gear, 30-50 mph: 2.9 sec
Top gear, 50-70 mph: 3.5 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 13.4 sec @ 105 mph
Top speed (governor limited): 156 mph
Braking, 70-0 mph: 159 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.86 g

PERFORMANCE: 40,000 MILES
Zero to 60 mph: 5.1 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 12.4 sec
Zero to 130 mph: 22.5 sec
Zero to 150 mph: 35.1 sec
Rolling start, 5-60 mph: 5.8 sec
Top gear, 30-50 mph: 3.0 sec
Top gear, 50-70 mph: 3.7 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 13.7 sec @ 104 mph
Top speed (governor limited): 156 mph
Braking, 70-0 mph: 159 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.88 g

FUEL ECONOMY:
EPA combined/city/hwy: 24/21/29 mpg
C/D observed: 26 mpg
Unscheduled oil additions: 0 qt

WARRANTY:
4 years/50,000 miles bumper to bumper;
12 years/unlimited miles corrosion protection;
4 years/unlimited miles roadside assistance;
4 years/50,000 miles scheduled maintenance
​

Spoiler

LS500

VEHICLE TYPE: front-engine, all-wheel-drive, 5-passenger, 4-door sedan

PRICE AS TESTED: $88,155 (base price: $85,215)

ENGINE TYPE: twin-turbocharged and intercooled DOHC 24-valve V-6, aluminum block and heads, port and direct fuel injection

Displacement: 210 cu in, 3445 cc
Power: 416 hp @ 6000 rpm
Torque: 442 lb-ft @ 1600 rpm

TRANSMISSION: 10-speed automatic with manual shifting mode

CHASSIS:
Suspension (F/R): multilink/multilink
Brakes (F/R): 15.7-in vented disc/14.1-in vented disc
Tires: Bridgestone Turanza T005 Run-Flat, F: 245/45RF-20 99Y R: 275/40RF-20 102Y

DIMENSIONS:
Wheelbase: 123.0 in
Length: 206.1 in
Width: 74.8 in Height: 57.9 in
Passenger volume: 97 cu ft
Trunk volume: 17 cu ft
Curb weight: 4977 lb

C/D TEST RESULTS:
Zero to 60 mph: 5.0 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 12.0 sec
Zero to 130 mph: 22.0 sec
Rolling start, 5–60 mph: 6.0 sec
Top gear, 30–50 mph: 3.5 sec
Top gear, 50–70 mph: 4.0 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 13.4 sec @ 106 mph
Top speed (governor limited): 141 mph
Braking, 70–0 mph: 164 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad*: 0.89 g
*stability-control-inhibited

C/D FUEL ECONOMY:
Observed: 17 mpg
75-mph highway driving: 26 mpg
Highway range: 560 miles

EPA FUEL ECONOMY:
Combined/city/highway: 21/18/27 mpg

 

[Gecko]

i dont think IS500 would be priced the same as german "top end performance" model.

And are we really complaining that future IS500 has only 416hp? Thats silly.

No, and these are not "top end performance" models. Germans have now moved to a strategy where the core model is a 2.0T and then there are models that bridge the gap up to C63 and RS4/5, etc.

For example, there is no longer a standard V6 Mercedes C class - "C350" or "C400" - they go straight from 2.0T C300 to C43 AMG, then up to C63 AMG.

Audi dropped the A4 3.2 years ago and now goes from A4 (2.0T) to V6 S4 to RS4.

BMW has not followed this pattern but it wouldn't surprise me if they did with how they've already introduced M550i into the 5 Series range.

So, my point here is that if Lexus was to do something like 2.0L/2.4L/2.5L turbo for "IS 300" or "IS 350" as the core IS model, then "IS 500 F Sport" with the V35A-FTS, that compares very well to what the Germans are doing. Do they have to follow that playbook? No way, but truthfully, these turbo 4 cylinder models are becoming plenty powerful for 90% of consumers so the market for a second "core" performance model - like IS 350, C350, 340i - is shrinking. There's less reason to upgrade with more power from base engines. So that's why we've seen the Germans position and market them differently, now as more dedicated performance models, which would be perfect for an IS with V35A-FTS.

Even if we have ~290hp turbo 4cyl IS and ~416hp turbo V6 IS, that still leaves a hole for IS F to compete with C63, M3, etc.

 

[ssun30]

Correct, the market is moving towards fewer engine options. With one four cylinder core model, a lite-performance model, and a true performance model. Three tiers, that's it. 2.4T->3.5TT->IS-F, throw in an economy hybrid, that's all they need.

 

[Gecko]

I also expect that in the absence of GS, the 3.5L TT V6 IS and IS F will have extended appeal beyond just the compact class (even if just for loyal Lexus buyers and return GS customers).

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

Did you take a look at your tests again? Look at the difference in weight. I mentioned that the 4.6 second range is possible. Remember when I said......

It all matters down to specification, conditions of the weather (though this should affect turbocharged cars less than naturally aspirated variants), equipment to measure, etc.

The LS tested from C&D is 270 lbs heavier than Lexus' car that they used for the 0-60 times. While, the BMW is just a smidgen heavier, accounting for the same (or even faster 0-60 time). Well duh, the weight obviously ruins everything.

This is an example where I would defend Lexus because they won't BS anybody. That claim is correct. People have gotten much closer to the claimed time with heavier weight too. Now imagine the car being 270 lbs lighter......

Also, remember that if the BMW were to be equipped as heavily as the Lexus, the LS500 would literally walk away from it like it was nothing, and you can say goodbye to the 600 lbs deficit in weight and the measly 0.2 second 0-60 time. A better driver behind the wheel could easily mitigate that. 320 hp (even if its underrated), will not be enough to go toe-to-toe with the LS if they had the same curb weight. 96 horsepower difference is no joke.

Think again. Your argument is a moot point. You even displayed the curb weight yourself. *sigh*

 

[Gecko]

Did you take a look at your tests again? Look at the difference in weight. I mentioned that the 4.6 second range is possible. Remember when I said......

The LS tested from C&D is 270 lbs heavier than Lexus' car that they used for the 0-60 times. While, the BMW is just a smidgen heavier, accounting for the same (or even faster 0-60 time). Well duh, the weight obviously ruins everything.

This is an example where I would defend Lexus because they won't BS anybody. That claim is correct. People have gotten much closer to the claimed time with heavier weight too. Now imagine the car being 270 lbs lighter......

Also, remember that if the BMW were to be equipped as heavily as the Lexus, the LS500 would literally walk away from it like it was nothing, and you can say goodbye to the 600 lbs deficit in weight and the measly 0.2 second 0-60 time. A better driver behind the wheel could easily mitigate that. 320 hp (even if its underrated), will not be enough to go toe-to-toe with the LS if they had the same curb weight. 96 horsepower difference is no joke.

Think again. Your argument is a moot point. You even displayed the curb weight yourself. *sigh*

Have you ever seen a test where the LS or LC 500 met their quoted 0-60 times of 4.6 and 4.4 seconds? I haven't.

I don't think it really matters that much because the people who buy these cars aren't caring much about a .4 or 1 second variance 0-60, but the point is real and valid: Lexus has been very optimistic when quoting their performance times. When a single real-world instrumented test cannot match the manufacturer quoted times, that isn't weather, instrumentation or testing conditions... that's proof.

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

Have you ever seen a test where the LS or LC 500 met their quoted 0-60 times of 4.6 and 4.4 seconds? I haven't.

I don't think it really matters that much because the people who buy these cars aren't caring much about a .4 or 1 second variance 0-60, but the point is real and valid: Lexus has been very optimistic when quoting their performance times. When a single real-world instrumented test cannot match the manufacturer quoted times, that isn't weather, instrumentation or testing conditions... that's proof.

Yes. I have. There has been a couple of car reviewers on Youtube who claim it hit the 4.6 second time as well. It doesn't matter, you're right, but they're not lying.

 

[Gecko]

Yes. I have. There has been a couple of car reviewers on Youtube who claim it hit the 4.6 second time as well. It doesn't matter, you're right, but they're not lying.

Links to videos?

 

[ssun30]

As I've said before BMW's straight line speed does not only come from under-rating the motor. Their expertise in drivetrain calibration is second to none. The engine, transmission, and control software work in such harmony that the car almost turn all available grip into useful acceleration. Their engines also hold a massive advantage over the competition in terms of turbo lag. All the 0.1s they shave off here and there accumulate into a notable advantage.

If you just look at the correlation between acceleration figures and power-to-weight ratio, Lexus is not lagging behind others: everyone lag behind BMW.

 

[internalaudit]

^ Sounds like with BEVs, that BMW advantage gets dwindled down significantly?

I wonder how reliable BMW BEVs are going to be. Heard from an acquaintance that his i3 is quite reliable.

 

[ssun30]

^Their future BEV battery supplier is CATL from China which builds majority of the BEV packs in the world. Their reliability records so far aren't amazing but aren't bad either. The i3 uses more expensive A123 packs which are more proven.

 

[GNS]

416 horsepower in an IS should be able to walk away with no effort against competitors like the M340i, C43 AMG, XE35t, ATS V-Sport, S4. Even if they try to add more power and torque, it won't be able to match the engineering design of the 4IS. The engine, transmission, chassis (which includes steering, suspension, stiffness, etc.) of the new Lexus vehicles have gotten stellar reviews worldwide and are proof that it will be untouchable for the foreseeable future. You guys are also forgetting a major point. Lexus' (except for the RC) are much lighter vehicles than the competition. With the new TNGA platform under the new IS, they will be able to shred unnecessary weight while also adding crucial updates. Even if they make the 4IS close to the size of the current 4GS, with the materials that they are using for weight reduction (although expensive), they will still be ahead of the competition; just like the 2IS was.

I just hope it goes the way I mentioned......

Even if the IS doesn't walk away from the aforementioned competition and is at best on par - or at worst 0.1 - 0.3s slower - it still won't matter very much to me because I'm looking for the complete package. Don't get me wrong, every car maker has their forte. For example, the S4's AWD system is really good, BMW has their turbo 6 cylinder engines dialed in and painstakingly tuned to work hand-in-hand with the rest of the drivetrain, Infiniti has massive incentives and discounts (lol).

However, the one forte that none of the above can ever hope to snatch from Lexus is reliability, and this goes for the unmentionables like the Q50, TLX and G70. I know the term 'reliability' gets peppered around here on LE and on other Lexus and Toyota forums, but it's the truth. Toyota is king of the Toyota Production System, and their party trick is making cars that don't sit in the shop every couple of months. Given proper maintenance, I think that a car should be able to do car things without fail. If a car is being repaired because of a busted water pump or because of broken timing chain tensioners (these things are NOT normal wear and tear items), then it is no longer a car but a money pit. I'm going to be owning my next car for at least 8 - 10 years or more and I want to do it right and not impulsively end up with something that looks great and drives amazing for the warranty period but suddenly explode with all sorts of problems after the warranty is done.

I read an article about the development of the new Supra, and Tetsuya Tada said that he was shocked at how much money BMW was spending on design alone. On the flip side, German engineers were shocked at how Toyota engineers would take apart components down to the last bolt and fastener, test every piece then ship thousands of parts back to Japan for further analysis. This was normal for Toyota, and clearly abnormal for BMW...which speaks volumes about BMW's quality. The actual quote is below:

The Fundamental Differences

We've learned a lot from BMW. The task list of each step in car making they expended on R&D was impressive. I almost started to think if they had an infinite budget funding to the task of design. Each step just much more extensive (and expensive) than what we would normally expend in different areas. Just astonishing. I started to doubt myself if this whole thing can be accomplished in a manner that can profit as a product sold as a Toyota. But then as development proceeded into next phases I was comforted when I saw there were later stages where Toyota would be the exact opposite, and BMW couldn't believe how extensive some of our quality and efficiency studies were as parts came into shape one by one. We would take every bit down to a fastener or rivet, and put it through our stringent quality control and a dozen other testing, we'd ship thousands of parts back to Japan for analysis. That is normal to us. Each piece we test at our level, they were now the ones surprised.​

 

[Ian Schmidt]

Lots of different factors... could be transmission mapping, weight of the LS, etc. As you note, a dyno would be a great indicator of what this engine is really putting down but I haven't found one yet. Have you?

Nope, I'm curious too, which is why I'd like to see one. Unfortunately none of the reviewers have obliged.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

As I've said before BMW's straight line speed does not only come from under-rating the motor. Their expertise in drivetrain calibration is second to none. The engine, transmission, and control software work in such harmony that the car almost turn all available grip into useful acceleration.

That also has the downside that everything's basically running on the ragged edge all the time. I saw a YouTube video recently where they picked up a recent 7 series off of CoPart (salvage auction) hoping to get it running and there were pieces of camshaft sticking through the valve covers, lifters fused to the deck, just crazy carnage. They would've needed at minimum a completely new top end for the engine, so they were gonna part it out instead.