Sources?
- Thread starter krew
- Start date
- Status
Sources?
Reason is simple - Tesla loses money on them... and big boys dont need to lose money on vehicles they sell... hence they are jumping into higher end models first, which is also bad for Tesla as thats where profits are.
I bet it will be out in 2021 MY with 416hp engine in one of the variations (not base). Dont we already have dates when job 1 starts for next IS from Carmaker1?
mikeavelli
Moderator
- Messages
- 7,020
- Reactions
- 15,590
They would invest now with projections of profits in the future.
I'll agree with the last bit. TTV6 is unlikely only on the IS line. I do believe the 2GR will remain, either that or: an IS350h to replace the IS350.
Yeah. Job #1 starts in July 2020 - I believe.
Secondly - I would bet against that. We are talking about Toyota here. A known conservative company. Everyone was excited about the 3G Lexus IS back in 2012/2013 too. Everyone was assuming Turbo charge and more power. What did we get in 2014/2015? Nothing. No changes. Then in 2016 and 2018 - engine changes. But slightly.
From someone that plays Toyota stock and invest highly in their company. Its highly likely, based off Toyota's build patterns, the AR Turbo and 2GR V6 will stay on the 4G Lexus until at least refresh - earliest they change engines there. Toyota loves to milk the engine/platform until they get the most profit from it. This is why they are one of the richest car companies.
My prediction is the TTV6 will not be dropped into the Lexus IS line. Maybe in the distance future - but not now. Few reasons why I think this:
1) Lexus IS is the brand's entry level product. Majority of their sales come from the base engine trim. A TTV6 would just not pull enough sales to justify it.
2) A TTV6 trickle drop from the LS to IS within a few years is too fast of a "trickle down". Toyota would likely want to shove the TTV6 into another model first.
3) A Lexus IS Non F model with TTV6 will only please enthusiasts - and generate questionable sales as enthusiasts make a small population of the consumer base with not all of them willing to buy a TTV6 Lexus.
4) With stronger emission laws coming from China and Europe, its possible Toyota brings the Lexus IS300h into US market and make it a IS350h to replace the IS350. A Hybrid Lexus IS will sell really well.
5) And this is my biggest reason - SUV crazed market. With an intensive SUV crazed market, it makes no sense to put a TTV6 into a Lexus IS. Sedan sales already low - especially luxury sedans. I believe the next vehicle to get the TTV6 will be the Lexus RX. It'll help the Lexus RX be a better and bigger power-house in the SUV market.
Last note: The 3G Lexus IS in 2014/2015 sold nearly as much units as the 2G Lexus IS in 2006/2007. Toyota knows the Lexus IS will sell regardless of engine changes.
Why would they bother with a V35A-FKS when they will have a turbo motor capable of taking its role?
The 200-250kW class engine is a workhorse, so it will not only be used by sports models like the IS, but one of the main purposes will be for light trucks and SUVs. The V35A-FKS is almost guaranteed to be less powerful and torquey as a utility vehicle engine than either the 1GR or 2GR. The hypothetical A24/25A-FTS will be more capable in every way imaginable. If the next Tacoma/4Runner/Prado does need a naturally aspirated V6 option they will stick to the 2GR-FKS, not developing an entirely new motor that does not offer more capabilities.
The 200-250kW class engine is a workhorse, so it will not only be used by sports models like the IS, but one of the main purposes will be for light trucks and SUVs. The V35A-FKS is almost guaranteed to be less powerful and torquey as a utility vehicle engine than either the 1GR or 2GR. The hypothetical A24/25A-FTS will be more capable in every way imaginable. If the next Tacoma/4Runner/Prado does need a naturally aspirated V6 option they will stick to the 2GR-FKS, not developing an entirely new motor that does not offer more capabilities.
they will invest now and build it in 2021... who wont buy Tesla 3 sized EV from BMW/MB/Audi/Lexus in 2021/2022, because Tesla was there sooner?
They dont have problem with Tesla losing billions before them, batteries are usually supplied by 3rd party anyway.
This is very true. The 2GR-FKS will likely stay instead of developing a N/A version of the TTV6 engine. Especially since its also already proven in reliability as well on top of saving money.
Joaquin Ruhi
Moderator
- Messages
- 1,529
- Reactions
- 2,434
The IS, perhaps more than any other Lexus line, has seen a wide array of regional, market-dependent powerplant offerings, and I suspect this will continue for the 4th generation. IS 350 has been pretty much a North America thing, with some also sold in Australia, New Zealand, Japan and possibly a handful of other markets. The IS 200d/220d diesels were a European thing. The 1st-gen IS 200s (be they 4 or 6 cylinders) never made it to North America, and neither has the IS 300h.
I think it's only a matter of time before a V35A-FKS naturally aspirated Dynamic Force engine replaces the current 2GR-FKS. With many of the so-called Dynamic Force tricks (dual Otto/Atkinson cycle, VVT-iW and so forth) already applied to the aging 2GR, it's hard to imagine how much better a V35A replacement could be. But you never know. No specs have been revealed. Don't underestimate Toyota engineers.
Yet, the Chinese market LS 350 would've been a natural to unveil the V35A-FKS. Instead, it soldiers on with the older 2GR-FKS. Given that the 2nd-gen IS pioneered the dual direct + port injection 2GR-FSE in the IS 350, might its 4th-gen successor be the first to use a naturally aspirated V35A-FKS in North America, Japan and Oceania?
I agree with ssun30 that a turbocharged A24/25A-FTS would be better suited for China's engine displacement-based laws than the V35A. and I imagine that Europe's primary powertrain lineup will continue to be hybrid, most likely the latest Toyota Crown's choice of A25A-FXS and 8GR-FXS.
Rob Grieveson
Follower
- Messages
- 184
- Reactions
- 164
Please watch on You Tube Top Gear testing the Tesla 3, it is an impressive car and is scarily fast, simple and clean.
I think we are at the start of a revolution here, and these suggestions of various power plants in different models will be history because the Tesla shows just how much torque and speed it is capable of and no one will need more, and their autonomous driving system looks impressive as well. In this same You Tube Tesla clip the Tesla tested for speed round a track against an established high end sports car and yes the Tesla is faster and wins.
I want one!
However would like Lexus to manufacture it, as I believe Tesla has had assembly problems and various teething issues after all they are now building at the rate of 7000 (up from 5000) cars a week from start up. I know Ford make that number in a matter of hours but their products along with many other manufacturers are looking boring and definitely old world by comparison to the new wave. The new Nissan Leaf recently launched now has a range on one charge of over 400 kms which for many folk would mean that the car needs to be re charged on a once a week basis. This range is likely to continue to improve as battery tech Improves.
The established manufacturers are not far away I am sure.
I think we are at the start of a revolution here, and these suggestions of various power plants in different models will be history because the Tesla shows just how much torque and speed it is capable of and no one will need more, and their autonomous driving system looks impressive as well. In this same You Tube Tesla clip the Tesla tested for speed round a track against an established high end sports car and yes the Tesla is faster and wins.
I want one!
However would like Lexus to manufacture it, as I believe Tesla has had assembly problems and various teething issues after all they are now building at the rate of 7000 (up from 5000) cars a week from start up. I know Ford make that number in a matter of hours but their products along with many other manufacturers are looking boring and definitely old world by comparison to the new wave. The new Nissan Leaf recently launched now has a range on one charge of over 400 kms which for many folk would mean that the car needs to be re charged on a once a week basis. This range is likely to continue to improve as battery tech Improves.
The established manufacturers are not far away I am sure.
in the end, i bet 2.5t will be more expensive than 2GR-FKS, so I doubt that NA will see that engine soon
TheNerdyPotato
Follower
- Messages
- 156
- Reactions
- 179
That's the only video Top Gear has posted on YouTube about the Model 3. There was no track testing in it, just an introduction and a bit of driving around. However, there is a different video of the Model S P100D smoking a Porsche 911R while drag racing.
It seems like you're misinforming people here. I say this because you made the claim that it was the "Tesla 3" ... "In this same You Tube Tesla clip" ... "round a track." It was a different car, in a different video, going down a drag strip.
I thought Toyota was skipping lithium ion batteries altogether for their solid state batteries? So I highly doubt there will be a tesla rival anytime soon. At least for the initial pre facelifted 4IS anyway.
My hopes for the 4IS are simple. A more fuel efficient flagship to replace the ageing GR engine that has roughly 250kws output (even if it was hybrid). A slightly higher output 2L turbo 4 (180kw is just fine as it is. the car just needs to be a little lighter). Maybe a slightly higher output hybrid to replace the 300h? I'm not certain about that one as the camry/ES hybrid is roughly 152kw only...
Most importantly though...a bit more practicality without sacrificing design for the interior! I mean the current one is nice but it got date pretty quickly especially in drag dark grey plastic (even if it is higher quality than Toyota). I mean yeah it's good quality. But it would be nice to look it too with various materials. Also...pretty please include a sunglasses holder!
My hopes for the 4IS are simple. A more fuel efficient flagship to replace the ageing GR engine that has roughly 250kws output (even if it was hybrid). A slightly higher output 2L turbo 4 (180kw is just fine as it is. the car just needs to be a little lighter). Maybe a slightly higher output hybrid to replace the 300h? I'm not certain about that one as the camry/ES hybrid is roughly 152kw only...
Most importantly though...a bit more practicality without sacrificing design for the interior! I mean the current one is nice but it got date pretty quickly especially in drag dark grey plastic (even if it is higher quality than Toyota). I mean yeah it's good quality. But it would be nice to look it too with various materials. Also...pretty please include a sunglasses holder!
CIF
Premium Member
- Messages
- 1,681
- Reactions
- 1,833
What demand is that exactly regarding the Model 3? The fact that the majority of Tesla 3 deposits have been for the cheaper base model which Tesla is not producing yet? We have no idea when Tesla will actually start production of the base $35,000 model. So far Tesla is only producing the much more expensive variants of the Model 3.
While you may be impressed, many others are not. The Model 3 has some massive, MASSIVE documented quality problems. Even compared to Tesla's subpar quality standards, some shortcuts have been taken and important steps have been skipped during Model 3 production so far.
Let's see how Model 3 quality holds up, and when Tesla is actually able to deliver that $35,000 base model. The Model 3 has had some massive, massive problems so far.
Not if Toyota values customer feedback. There has been some negative customer feedback so far for the 3rd gen Tacoma with the 2GR-FKS and 6 speed auto. Many feel the engine and transmission combination is a poor fit for the Tacoma. That's why used 2nd gen Tacoma values with the 1GR continue to hold incredibly. Of course the Tacoma sells no matter what, but the fact that the 3rd gen already has a negative reputation among many Toyota fans and some owners is significant.
The 2GR-FKS is a very poor fit for body-on-frame or heavier duty applications. I've driven the 4RX with the 2GR-FKS engine, and the engine is barely adequate for the unibody RX. It's not slow, but it's not fast at all and doesn't even feel powerful. It is merely adequate. Same thing with the fuel economy. It is not terrible, it is not amazing, it is only adequate. The 2GR-FKS in my opinion works fine for unibody applications, but definitely not body-on-frame.
Last edited:
TheNerdyPotato
Follower
- Messages
- 156
- Reactions
- 179
This reminds me of what I said about the 1UR in the Tundra. It's fine in a smaller, lighter car (LS460) as the -FSE variant. The neutered -FE variant has lower compression and lacks direct injection. As such, it is an underperformer in the full-size truck.
More specific to the 2GR, as well as the 1UR; they are both oversquare. This leads to more rev-happy high-power engines. The problem is they then tend to lose some low-end torque. The Dynamic-Force engines are all undersquare (tall-narrow cylinders) and could correct some of the torque deficit without increasing displacement or resorting to turbocharging.
The Dynamic Force is a less power dense design than the GR/UR. It loses quite a bit of peak torque (100N.m/L) compared to the older GSE (close to 110N.m/L). However the usable torque should be comparable in real world usage. Still the DF motors will struggle against turbocharged competition for hauling and towing.
Turbocharging just makes sense for utility vehicles. We shouldn't be surprised that every heavy duty combat vehicle out there has a turbodiesel. And modern turbo gasolines are basically turbodiesels that rev higher and burn cleaner.
Whether the US market definitively want a naturally aspirated V6 is somewhat debatable. After all, the best sellers in the segment are all equipped with forced-induction. I don't see 3-series buyers complaining the N55 and B58 are not naturally aspirated.
The problem is, again, what new capabilities can a hypothetical V35A-FKS bring? If, as many on this forum suggest, the current IS350 lacks power compared to the competition (which is true), will the V35A-FKS solve this problem at all? The 2IS introduced the 2GR-FSE which is a huge upgrade in capabilities vs. the old 2JZ-GE on the 1IS/Altezza. It was almost a 50% power increase, along with more compact packaging, lower weight, and much improved efficiency.
The 2GR-FKS engine already has over 90hp/L at 6800rpm with a 83mm stroke running 95RON. The A25A-FKS makes 82hp/L at 6600rpm running 91RON. To even achieve the same specific power as the 2GR-FKS they will have to find 10% extra power. Getting 10% extra power is not easy without raising the rpm of the engine, at best they could get close to 90hp/L with 95RON, richer fuel mixture, and more aggressive cams, sacrificing efficiency during the process. The thing is, at 100mm stroke, they really couldn't get much more revs out of the V35A. The ND Miata recently got an upgrade to 90hp/L, but its 2.0 SkyActiv-G had more revs margin to play with.
So the point is, they already need to go through a lot of trouble to match the power of the 2GR-FKS, which is already considered underpowered.
Of course I would love to see a dedicated high specific power 3.5L unit with 100hp/L and thermal efficiency that is relevant in the modern world. But TMC is a very logic-driven corporation, so it tends to not do things that sound cool but don't work well.
maiaramdan
Expert
- Messages
- 1,811
- Reactions
- 1,419
Honestly I got a strange thoughts
If the next IS length will be nearly as the current Mark-X, will this makes it confirm that there is a next generation Mark-X with the exact dimensions???
If the next IS length will be nearly as the current Mark-X, will this makes it confirm that there is a next generation Mark-X with the exact dimensions???
Ian Schmidt
Moderator
- Messages
- 2,370
- Reactions
- 4,144
I was gonna say, the Model 3 is decent when it works, but it ain't a P100D either. There was a widely publicized video of it doing a lap on Laguna Seca last week which was nice, but not world-beating. And reports continue to pile up that there's a weak-link semiconductor in the drive unit that shorts out and kills the car until the component and some fuses are replaced.
- Status