The Future of the IS Thread

[Levi]

Sadly, Lexus probably looks at this and realizes that a refreshed IS would outsell the Koreans combined just because of brand recognition, and is OK with that as an exercise in minimal effort. Q50 is rapidly becoming as irrelevant as Infiniti - not that Lexus is doing much better. Their 400hp engine has not done anything to buoy sales.

A refresh of a 7 year old car is 100% proof of thought saying, "Let's see what we can get out of this with minimal effort and investment." There is no real strategy or "be best in class" play happening at Lexus anymore from what we have seen.

It depends in which markets. In Australia I think the Stinger outsells all Lexus sedans together.

Besides Will1991, Ssun and myself, anyone else truly interested in a TMX/TMY BEV competitor from Lexus? It does have an un-utilized E-TNGA (Lexus equivalent) platform for its BEV offerings.

I prefer you say Audi e-Tron and the other coming e-Macan. I don't like the egg shape of the Teslas. Also, given the advantage of BEV chassis, I'd prefer a sedan over a CUV.



But I think we all agree, however sad the end of GS and IS might be, Lexus urgently needs a perfectly from ground up (not like UX 300e) built BEV sedan to compete with the TM3, the coming BMW i4 etc...

 

[internalaudit]

It depends in which markets. In Australia I think the Stinger outsells all Lexus sedans together.



I prefer you say Audi e-Tron and the other coming e-Macan. I don't like the egg shape of the Teslas. Also, given the advantage of BEV chassis, I'd prefer a sedan over a CUV.

True but I said the Model 3 is selling briskly, definitely briskier than the Taycan or any Audi e-Tron because of the price. I won't want Lexus to be starting with a $80k USD BEV. I will mention Porsche/Audi going forward and not the Tesla's so as not to offend you and to raise the goalpost a lot more lol.

The TM3's front is lifted a lot from the Porsche 918 anyway (or that's my impression when it was first revealed but yeah, something looks wrong from the rear. The top looks like a joker's hat or vase.

 

[suxeL]

What tech are you referring to? Ludicrous mode and the 30 minute restful state in between to get the battery / power spooled up?

Enhanced Auto Pilot that cannot detect a barricade and that will not see L5 in a decade?

Battery that is developed and owned by Panasonic?


i only see the SCN going for Tesla and I have no need for that 99% of the time and might as well rent a car for the long drives at most once a year.


The only ones blinded by Tesla vehicles (besides those who are captivated by the brand but don't understand the cons like my daughter and her peers) are those who come from less sporty vehicles (and think the TM3 is a sports car), want to save a lot on fuel (well, who wouldn't except the piston heads who have a money tree in the backyard), and those who don't know how an above average sedan or SUV should handle. I think Tesla management's hubris is so prominent that will not care to reverse engineer the Taycan or the e-trons to see what makes they drive better.

Whatever tech you just mentioned, with those exact flaws (there are more on the finishes and panels etc) are still enough for them to move units around the world for folks like your daughter and her peers...

 

[internalaudit]

Whatever tech you just mentioned, with those exact flaws (there are more on the finishes and panels etc) are still enough for them to move units around the world for folks like your daughter and her peers...

There is no other compelling enough BEV truth to be told with a $50k price tag currently. But it is only 2020 so for those who can wait, it makes sense to do so. The Q4 e-tron would be a good start if it debuts with a base $45k model, along with the Polestar 2. The Polestar Precept concept looks sharp too.

It's not the tech going for Tesla but the lack of alternatives and fanboyism because some people are balls deep in TSLA stocks.

I wouldn't sell any of my ICEVs to get a Tesla. If I was given one, sure, I'll take it but I will dump it the minute I have a $5k repair bill.

 

[CRSKTN]

A refresh or a redesign we shall see when they launch the model. Either way i doubt these will sell in any numbers over what they already do. A Tesla model 3 competitor is not realistic at this point in time, as the buyers in that market are basically blinded by unique tech that Lexus has no plans of launching anytime soon on the IS.

The best autopilot tesla ever had wasn't the one they developed/are developing. The batteries aren't ones they developed. Nobody sits in a model 3 after a luxury car and thinks "yeah, i'm not making any sacrifices".

They're selling because there isn't a clear competitor yet, hype, and subsidies.

There is no other compelling enough BEV truth to be told with a $50k price tag currently. But it is only 2020 so for those who can wait, it makes sense to do so. The Q4 e-tron would be the start, along with the Polestar 2.

It's not the tech but the lack of alternatives.

I wouldn't sell any of my ICEVs to get a Tesla. If I was given one, sure, I'll take it.

There is no other compelling enough BEV truth to be told with a $50k price tag currently. But it is only 2020 so for those who can wait, it makes sense to do so. The Q4 e-tron would be the start, along with the Polestar 2.

It's not the tech but the lack of alternatives.

I wouldn't sell any of my ICEVs to get a Tesla. If I was given one, sure, I'll take it.

I'd sell it immediately and roll it into a Taycan

 

[internalaudit]

The best autopilot tesla ever had wasn't the one they developed/are developing. The batteries aren't ones they developed. Nobody sits in a model 3 after a luxury car and thinks "yeah, i'm not making any sacrifices".

They're selling because there isn't a clear competitor yet, hype, and subsidies.




I'd sell it immediately and roll it into a Taycan

LOL, that's a good plan. I don't mind getting a used Taycan with an estimated 10% depreciation each year (Taycanforum had a thread on this). The 4S is plenty enough for me but I want some add-ons like the Performance Package and maybe the 14-way seats.

But the torque vectoring is old school mechanical/clutch type I believe so one more expensive thing that could break down lol.

 

[suxeL]

There is no other compelling enough BEV truth to be told with a $50k price tag currently. But it is only 2020 so for those who can wait, it makes sense to do so. The Q4 e-tron would be a good start if it debuts with a base $45k model, along with the Polestar 2. The Polestar Precept concept looks sharp too.

It's not the tech going for Tesla but the lack of alternatives and fanboyism because some people are balls deep in TSLA stocks.

I wouldn't sell any of my ICEVs to get a Tesla. If I was given one, sure, I'll take it but I will dump it the minute I have a $5k repair bill.

The best autopilot tesla ever had wasn't the one they developed/are developing. The batteries aren't ones they developed. Nobody sits in a model 3 after a luxury car and thinks "yeah, i'm not making any sacrifices".

They're selling because there isn't a clear competitor yet, hype, and subsidies.




I'd sell it immediately and roll it into a Taycan

bringing this train back to the station, the Tesla model 3 competitor is not something the Lexus 4IS is really aiming for

 

[internalaudit]

bringing this train back to the station, the Tesla model 3 competitor is not something the Lexus 4IS is really aiming for

And you know this by / how?

There is not even a 4IS out there so how do you know what it is aimed at?

If the Motor Trend article is partially correct, maybe it is the 4IS but still, unless you work for Lexus/Toyota corporate and in a coveted higher up management position, I am not sure how you can be so sure of your statement. As @Levi mentioned, let's not compare a Lexus to a Tesla.

 

[suxeL]

And you know this by / how?

There is not even a 4IS so how do you know what it is aimed at?

By posts on this forum...

Lets just look at a summary of what was posted recently and posts in italics that were posted by members other than myself


1) "Same old platform"
-Unless the New N platform was magically designed for electrification thats not happening.

2) "Tesla Model 3 Competitor is a must for the the 4th IS"
- Yet Tesla's only claim to fame is the Supercharging network
- A $50k BEV is not worth it, Lexus's first model should be $80K (which is LS money)
-I wouldn't sell any of my ICEVs to get a Tesla. If I was given one, sure, I'll take it but I will dump it the minute I have a $5k repair bill.

With all that from enthusiasts and customers of Lexus, would you go ahead and shift the IS to a BEV for launch this upcoming year?

 

[internalaudit]

By posts on this forum...

Lets just look at a summary of what was posted recently and posts in italics that were posted by members other than myself


1) "Same old platform"
-Unless the New N platform was magically designed for electrification thats not happening.

2) "Tesla Model 3 Competitor is a must for the the 4th IS"
- Yet Tesla's only claim to fame is the Supercharging network
- A $50k BEV is not worth it, Lexus's first model should be $80K (which is LS money)
-I wouldn't sell any of my ICEVs to get a Tesla. If I was given one, sure, I'll take it but I will dump it the minute I have a $5k repair bill.

With all that from enthusiasts and customers of Lexus, would you go ahead and shift the IS to a BEV for launch this upcoming year?

So you are quoting recent posts here to form your opinion that the 4IS is not a TM3 competitor (when in fact a lot of those posts concede that they are competing in the same class segment but using differing propulsion mechanisms)?

Okay. You must have lots of time on your hands. Kudos to your line of work.

 

[suxeL]

So you are quoting recent posts here to form your opinion that the 4IS is not a TM3 competitor (when in fact a lot of those posts concede that is competing in the same class segment but using differing propulsion mechanisms)?

Okay. You must have lots of time on your hands. Kudos to your line of work.

I`m stating that wishing that the upcoming refresh or redesigned 4IS is coming as a BEV/Model 3 Slayer is something I wouldnt bet the farm on.

Not my farm, so do as you wish as they say.

And you know this by / how?

There is not even a 4IS out there so how do you know what it is aimed at?

If the Motor Trend article is partially correct, maybe it is the 4IS but still, unless you work for Lexus/Toyota corporate and in a coveted higher up management position, I am not sure how you can be so sure of your statement. As @Levi mentioned, let's not compare a Lexus to a Tesla.

BTW, half those "motor trend like articles" that are being pushed, are basically a regurgitation of this gigantic thread/site in print format for the general public. Just like the so-called "NEXT GEN GS inbound based on the MIRAI" => "GS Cancelled"

But hey, conjecture is what draws interest to mfgs..."2nd Gen Raptor set to receive an updated NA V8"

 

[internalaudit]

I`m stating that wishing that the upcoming refresh or redesigned 4IS is coming as a BEV/Model 3 Slayer is something I wouldnt bet the farm on.

Not my farm, so do as you wish as they say.



BTW, half those "motor trend like articles" that are being pushed, are basically a regurgitation of this gigantic thread/site in print format for the general public. Just like the so-called "NEXT GEN GS inbound based on the MIRAI" => "GS Cancelled"

But hey, conjecture is what draws interest to mfgs..."2nd Gen Raptor set to receive an updated NA V8"

I'm not. If you had stalked some of my posts here, I have mentioned a couple of time I have until 2030 to buy our dream BEV(s). It can be sooner but I can wait. Think about the options --> Taycan, e-tron S line with 10% depreciation/year. I don't mind buying new but not a $100-150k BEV. I'm not filthy rich haha.

Instant torque (believe it or not, I don't have to test drive a BEV to understand how that feels because I'm human with an above average intelligence), 0-100 km/h in >5 seconds (I don't plan to track) and fuel savings (depreciation is the number one pocketbook killer) aren't enough to persuade me to buy a boat that travels on land lol.

Once they offer torque vectoring or some compelling reasons (solid state battery or something as durable), then they're talking.

 

[suxeL]

I'm not. If you had stalked some of my posts here, I have mentioned a couple of time I have until 2030 to buy our dream BEV(s). It can be sooner but I can wait.

Instant torque (believe it or not, I don't have to test drive a BEV to understand how that feels because I'm human with an above average intelligence), 0-100 km/h in >5 seconds (I don't plan to track) and fuel savings (depreciation is the number one pocketbook killer) aren't enough to persuade me to buy a boat that travels on land lol.

Once they offer torque vectoring or some compelling reasons (solid state battery or something as durable), then they're talking.

2030 is 5th gen IS territory, and I assume when they start planning for that you`ll be in their thoughts and designs.....

 

[internalaudit]

2030 is 5th gen IS territory, and I assume when they start planning for that you`ll be in their thoughts and designs.....

For someone who wants to get back on topic, you sure know how to derail the thread ^10th haha.

Lexus doesn't have to worry about me. I'm easy to please but I know what I want in a BEV.

 

[suxeL]

For someone who wants to get back on topic, you sure know how to derail the thread ^10th haha.

What do you do for a living?

All I do is derail threads by reading them too carefully

Sorry mods, i`ll exit the thread to go read some other threads too carefully🤓

 

[Will1991]

I don't see this 4IS being a BEV, and we've some information to back it up:

2020 BEV is the UX300e, and Lexus also stated this is going to be only BEV built on a non-dedicated platform, so for 2022 BEV we've some possibilities:

• SUV
  • NX is coming up in 2021, so it's not it
  • RX, LX, LF'1 seems unlikely to me, given their size they would require quite a enormous battery
• Sedan
  • 4IS is rumored to come up this year, so it's not it
  • LS a refresh is coming up

For me there is only two options:

• 4IS is a 2nd facelift (similar to the CT, as Lexus EU stated a new facelift being good for at least 24 more months) to keep things going until a all-new-BEV sedan coming up 2022, maybe the rumored RWD-ES-based BEV is real after all?
• 4IS is a whole new model and unless Lexus is coming up with a whole new model... I don't really know what's to come...

A bit off-topic but as stated before, I was really close to place a TM3 order... But I waited to see it live and was enough to forget about it...

 

[Levi]

Our discussion's (questioning and speculating) comes from the fact that the 4IS might be a 3.3IS, and in that case the car will lack competivity against the Germans, Koreans, Italian (and British?). The Germans and Tesla fight in the same segment, they just use different tools, and thr Germans are adopting the 'electric' tool. A 3.3IS is neither this not that. We know even competitive products (Alfa Giulia, Genesis G70) stuggle, what to say about uncompetitive ones (Infiniti Q50 (I like this car, I'd take it over the Germans, my brother has one))?

So logically we think if the 4IS which is due will be a 3.3IS, there must be some reasoning behind, and that would be a BMW i4 rival. Compared to Lexus, BMW still cares about their sedans, because they also sell.

But assuming the idea would be an electric BEV, why an IS BEV over an ES BEV? Because cheaper? Because dedicated BEV platform?

 

[Will1991]

@Levi , a ES BEV seems unlikely to me since current ES should be with us at least 4 more years and given how well it sells I'm not seeing Lexus doing "experiments" with it... GS is dead and Lexus IS is on life support so it's less of a risk to:

• Keep it going with a 2nd facelift with LS's TTV6 to try to get some GS costumers until a all new BEV (TM3/Polestar 2/i4 rival) is launched;
• Do a whole new model

Neither of this options will hurt big money maker ES sedan, but personally I would love to see Lexus going with the first one.

And remember, Lexus managed to keep CT (and LX/GX if I remember correctly) selling quite well given it's age/rivals with a 2nd facelift so it's not something new to Lexus

 

[internalaudit]

@Levi , a ES BEV seems unlikely to me since current ES should be with us at least 4 more years and given how well it sells I'm not seeing Lexus doing "experiments" with it... GS is dead and Lexus IS is on life support so it's less of a risk to:

• Keep it going with a 2nd facelift with LS's TTV6 to try to get some GS costumers until a all new BEV (TM3/Polestar 2/i4 rival) is launched;
• Do a whole new model

Neither of this options will hurt big money maker ES sedan, but personally I would love to see Lexus going with the first one.

And remember, Lexus managed to keep CT (and LX/GX if I remember correctly) selling quite well given it's age/rivals with a 2nd facelift so it's not something new to Lexus

What made you not order the TM3, what turned you off?

I had put a deposit the next day of the unveiling and cancelled it because I realized if I'm going to spend that much (even $10-15k more), I want a few more features/technologies.

 

[Will1991]

@internalaudit , on paper, the TM3+LR+RWD version would be the perfect car for me and even pricing was fine since TCO is similar to a cheaper hybrid but after touching it and after seating I found some problems (for my liking). The main ones were used materials (for it's price point), closing door feel (almost all of them seemed to rattle a bit even stationary) and seating ergonomics (with me in a comfortable driving position was impossible to get any space to place my feet under the front seat so it was a bit claustrophobic)...

Then I realized some major issues with it in the forums such as very weak paint, subpar build quality, window sill issues...

As for the technology, for me it seemed too much even... I had to use the touch screen to open the glovebox ahahah It even seemed a bit dangerous so much "normal" things are on the touch screen while driving...

Are you looking for autonomous driving or other kind of tech?