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LexsCTJill

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I think you should pay attention to lease rates, because the segment is all about it.

I really don't care to be honest. I enjoy Lexus and Toyota models, despite the fact they are not perfect and their shortcomings. We also don't lease anything and the idea of buying outright an Audi, or Mercedes doesn't have the long term ownership proposition as a Lexus.

. Genesis is so new, so they have to offer competitive lease rates to capture customers and gain some market share.

Genesis is actually not so new. Been around for 5 years now as a stand-alone. They do have nice models but I do not think they will go very far long term.
 

spwolf

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I think you should pay attention to lease rates, because the segment is all about it. Most luxury buyers shop on the deal they get. Doesn't matter if it is a Lexus, Genesis or Audi, Mercedes, BMW. They all do that. Right now, most people aren't willing to lease an old IS for more than a much newer 3 Series. Genesis is so new, so they have to offer competitive lease rates to capture customers and gain some market share.

just like in any business, it is a tough competition to balance between product offering and discounts/leases/sales.

Overall, Toyota is doing great, and VW is also doing good... BMW and Daimler had big profit drops before covid-19 though.
So their sales might look nice, reality is that both of them combined do not reach half of Toyota profits in 2019, or overall VW group profits.

So awesome leases that sell 3 and 5 series are nice, they do come at a cost.
 
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When will this lease bubble bust? I don't see it as a win-win situation, rather a lose-lose. But I have not run the numbers to know who wins/loses (customer/dealer/bank/carmaker/...).

COVID19 could very well be the one to make it bust, with many people going default on many of their payments.
It hasn't burst. The popularity has lead to manufacturers incentivizing payments to lure customers, which is why many buyers that have good credit and financial state are going that route to get into a BMW, Mercedes, Audi, etc. The short term commitment mitigates any debate on whether it will be reliable in the long term, because you have a warranty during it and don't have to worry about the long term. Should every one lease? That's a personal decision and YMMV. Some people like it, some don't. To me, it seems that leasing is a foreign concept to those outside the US. I'm curious how it is in other countries such as Europe, because it seems we lease the cars you buy.
 

spwolf

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It hasn't burst. The popularity has lead to manufacturers incentivizing payments to lure customers, which is why many buyers that have good credit and financial state are going that route to get into a BMW, Mercedes, Audi, etc. The short term commitment mitigates any debate on whether it will be reliable in the long term, because you have a warranty during it and don't have to worry about the long term. Should every one lease? That's a personal decision and YMMV. Some people like it, some don't. To me, it seems that leasing is a foreign concept to those outside the US. I'm curious how it is in other countries such as Europe, because it seems we lease the cars you buy.

depends on the country... DE is huge on leases, so is GB... other markets nowhere as much.
 
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I really don't care to be honest. I enjoy Lexus and Toyota models, despite the fact they are not perfect and their shortcomings. We also don't lease anything and the idea of buying outright an Audi, or Mercedes doesn't have the long term ownership proposition as a Lexus.
Then to me, you don't seem to understand buyers of other brands. To me its narrow but its your prerogative. I tend to be a car enthusiast above all, rather than just a Toyota/Lexus guy blah blah blah.

Luxury car buyers don't tend to hold on to vehicles for 10-20 years like you and I do (I have a Corolla that's been with me for over 10 years, love the low maintenance but itching for something fun to drive next).
Genesis is actually not so new. Been around for 5 years now as a stand-alone. They do have nice models but I do not think they will go very far long term.
Genesis is still a new brand compared to everyone else. Not liking a brand doesn't mean that they can't succeed, because I know you have an axe to grind with Hyundai (We all still read that other site don't we). My view of them is the opposite, because they focused on the things that Toyota did). I'm sure the Europeans laughed when Toyota wanted to sell luxury vehicles in the 80s.

I wouldn't discount Genesis yet, but they still have awhile to go to be near what Lexus was in 5 years time, so they're on a tougher road for sure. Tesla was just one Roadster in 2008, and today, their Model 3 outsold a lot of luxury vehicles.
 

LexsCTJill

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Then to me, you don't seem to understand buyers of other brands. To me its narrow but its your prerogative. I tend to be a car enthusiast above all, rather than just a Toyota/Lexus guy blah blah blah.

Luxury car buyers don't tend to hold on to vehicles for 10-20 years like you and I do (I have a Corolla that's been with me for over 10 years, love the low maintenance but itching for something fun to drive next).

Genesis is still a new brand compared to everyone else. Not liking a brand doesn't mean that they can't succeed, because I know you have an axe to grind with Hyundai (We all still read that other site don't we). My view of them is the opposite, because they focused on the things that Toyota did). I'm sure the Europeans laughed when Toyota wanted to sell luxury vehicles in the 80s.

I wouldn't discount Genesis yet, but they still have awhile to go to be near what Lexus was in 5 years time, so they're on a tougher road for sure. Tesla was just one Roadster in 2008, and today, their Model 3 outsold a lot of luxury vehicles.

Competition is good. I think Genesis is 5 years in now for the US market. It will be interesting to see how their new G80 and GV80 sales do.
 

ssun30

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When will this lease bubble bust? I don't see it as a win-win situation, rather a lose-lose. But I have not run the numbers to know who wins/loses (customer/dealer/bank/carmaker/...).

COVID19 could very well be the one to make it bust, with many people going default on many of their payments.
Unlikely. American dealerships operate on the basis of minimum transparency. They don't want customers to know the true price they pay for their cars, and leases/72mo loans are a good way to do that. Regular people don't do maths well especially when the cost is divided up in pieces, many don't realize leases are financially crippling for them. Just look at the software market: many people are buying $10/mo subscriptions for software they used to buy and own indefinitely for $100 before.

The Coronavirus recession will make people change cars less often, so what will happen is the current 36mo leases will become 48mo or 60mo with no down payment.

The only way to burst the lease bubble is wide-spread financial literacy education.
 

LexsCTJill

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The Coronavirus recession will make people change cars less often, so what will happen is the current 36mo leases will become 48mo or 60mo with no down payment

This is a great point. I think all luxury brands will suffer quite a bit from the current events.
 

Sulu

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Unlikely. American dealerships operate on the basis of minimum transparency. They don't want customers to know the true price they pay for their cars, and leases/72mo loans are a good way to do that. Regular people don't do maths well especially when the cost is divided up in pieces, many don't realize leases are financially crippling for them. Just look at the software market: many people are buying $10/mo subscriptions for software they used to buy and own indefinitely for $100 before.

The Coronavirus recession will make people change cars less often, so what will happen is the current 36mo leases will become 48mo or 60mo with no down payment.

The only way to burst the lease bubble is wide-spread financial literacy education.
I understand what you are trying to argue but -- I believe -- this is a bad comparison.

Software is unlike any other consumer commodity, including automobiles. Software does not wear out (computer hardware does wear out but computer software does not), unlike automobiles. So, whereas the consumer has to regularly maintain and replace their cars, they do not have to do so with software; without some marketing tricks, including regular "upgrades", software makers would soon go out of business.

To ensure that consumers regularly upgrade their software, makers of the average consumer software must continually make changes to them, stop supporting old, "out-of-date" software, and regularly push the latest software out to consumers, all at a regular "subscription" price.
 

internalaudit

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Unlikely. American dealerships operate on the basis of minimum transparency. They don't want customers to know the true price they pay for their cars, and leases/72mo loans are a good way to do that. Regular people don't do maths well especially when the cost is divided up in pieces, many don't realize leases are financially crippling for them. Just look at the software market: many people are buying $10/mo subscriptions for software they used to buy and own indefinitely for $100 before.

The Coronavirus recession will make people change cars less often, so what will happen is the current 36mo leases will become 48mo or 60mo with no down payment.

The only way to burst the lease bubble is wide-spread financial literacy education.

And I was hoping for 84 months maxim8of 1.99% from Lexus for that dream BEV down the road :)
 
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I like the specs in terms of powertrain, but we want a redesign, not a refresh. If it's going to be a refresh, can it be a LX, LC and the next LS if it's refreshed with an full LED headlight, bumper and aggressive styling grille? But if the Lexus IS wants to revive the SC, HS, and GS because a redesigned IS doesn't happen when people request it. For example, I have created the LC-F, the photo below this paragraph, but it looks fun with changing the spindle grille to take it off and make (IS Gen 2) front end more agressive grille desgin for people who hate the spindle grille. But my opinion is that the LX, LC and LS are beautiful but they can do something more aggressive and luxurious grille if it will be refresh like LX & LC front fascia. 3942
 

Levi

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I thought about old generation grill on the LC and I like. Not saying it is bad as it is, but I like small grills.


LX already is on 3rd refresh, can't do a 4th.
 
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I think I am going to start keeping a scorecard for how many of these rumors Mag-X gets right... In recent memory, I can't think of the last time a Mag-X rumor has been correct outside of predicting what a car will look like 3 months before it is released. For the time being, as soon as I see Mag-X as the source, I will just stop reading. IMO, Lexus is not in a good place these days in terms of brand cache, I feel a lot of the energy and excitement that went into building polarizing and bold looking cars (starting with the 3IS F Sport) has diminished. There are cars that currently exist in the line-up that never existed before, and consumer reaction is "Yeah it looks cool, but [insert German competitor] performs better." I've been pretty annoyed that Lexus opt to go this lifestyle/yacht route as opposed to engineering vehicles to outclass the competition. The only thing I really look forward to is the LC F, LQ, and hopefully an F Crossover; this 2021 IS F thing isn't happening (How is Lexus going to make an F car for North America, and not Japan, where they make all of the special models the U.S. doesn't get, and yet there are no test mules being spotted? AT ALL?! LOL MAG-X Clickbait) But seriously, Lexus needs to get it together or the Genesis brand will continue to creep their way into the conversation.
 

CRSKTN

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I think I am going to start keeping a scorecard for how many of these rumors Mag-X gets right... In recent memory, I can't think of the last time a Mag-X rumor has been correct outside of predicting what a car will look like 3 months before it is released. For the time being, as soon as I see Mag-X as the source, I will just stop reading. IMO, Lexus is not in a good place these days in terms of brand cache, I feel a lot of the energy and excitement that went into building polarizing and bold looking cars (starting with the 3IS F Sport) has diminished. There are cars that currently exist in the line-up that never existed before, and consumer reaction is "Yeah it looks cool, but [insert German competitor] performs better." I've been pretty annoyed that Lexus opt to go this lifestyle/yacht route as opposed to engineering vehicles to outclass the competition. The only thing I really look forward to is the LC F, LQ, and hopefully an F Crossover; this 2021 IS F thing isn't happening (How is Lexus going to make an F car for North America, and not Japan, where they make all of the special models the U.S. doesn't get, and yet there are no test mules being spotted? AT ALL?! LOL MAG-X Clickbait) But seriously, Lexus needs to get it together or the Genesis brand will continue to creep their way into the conversation.

Now people are making fun of BMW for having oversized grills.

Lexus invested who knows how much money and resources cornering the oversized grill market away from Cadillac and Kenthworth!

Nowadays I dont hear one insulting peep about my RCF :mad:😡
 

spwolf

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The Coronavirus recession will make people change cars less often, so what will happen is the current 36mo leases will become 48mo or 60mo with no down payment.

I have seen many articles over the past 2 years that 72 and 80 month loans have became a new norm in the US... so it is already here.
 
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I thought about old generation grill on the LC and I like. Not saying it is bad as it is, but I like small grills.


LX already is on 3rd refresh, can't do a 4th.
The photo doesn't look as professional as the manufacturer who designs it, but only to show the difference. Still, with the LX, LS, and LC spindle grille, it's the only car that looks super classy, and if they want a fully refresh IS, supposedly do a redesign, they can upgrade similarly to the LX and LC grille. And during the upcoming 5 years of actual play, they can make the front fascia. But if the LX will be redesigned, not a fourth refresh, it has a chance to do so. And you're right the LC front facial looks classy with (IS Gen 2). Even they don't show us a real evidence a IS design and perhaps new redesigns models that they have time to debut in October 2020, with IS when they start. Fingers crossed on that new IS-F to comeback.
 

Trexus

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The photo doesn't look as professional as the manufacturer who designs it, but only to show the difference. Still, with the LX, LS, and LC spindle grille, it's the only car that looks super classy, and if they want a fully refresh IS, supposedly do a redesign, they can upgrade similarly to the LX and LC grille. And during the upcoming 5 years of actual play, they can make the front fascia. But if the LX will be redesigned, not a fourth refresh, it has a chance to do so. And you're right the LC front facial looks classy with (IS Gen 2). Even they don't show us a real evidence a IS design and perhaps new redesigns models that they have time to debut in October 2020, with IS when they start. Fingers crossed on that new IS-F to comeback.

Yes bring back an IS F and the IS Sportcross wagon...
 
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