The Future of the IS Thread

[RAL]

I don't know why you won't allow yourself to believe this, but the ES is an Avalon that went to beauty school.

Not to be picky, but let's be clear ... The statement "... the ES is an Avalon that went to beauty school." is not entirely accurate. The suspension is tuned differently. The platform is different because the construction is different. The front sub-frame is completely reinforced. The platform is screwed together with laser welded screws and then glued together with 65 feet of adhesive. And there is a stiffening brace between the shock towers. So compared to the Avalon, you feel much more strength and much more control over the dampers. The dampers are designed with two valves to be both compliant and composed. There is also more sound deadening material under hood. 93% of the bottom of the car is covered in sound deadening material (up from 68% in the 4ES). Admittedly, the car is not on the same level as the 5 Series or E Class or GS. It is not meant to be. It is significantly less expensive too. But, neither is the ES an Avalon that went to beauty school.

 

[Gecko]

Let's be clear ... The statement "... the ES is an Avalon that went to beauty school." is not entirely accurate. Yes, the suspension is tuned differently. But beyond that, the platform is different because the construction is different. The front sub-frame is completely reinforced. The platform is screwed together with laser welded screws and then glued together with 65 feet of adhesive. And there is a stiffening brace between the shock towers. So compared to the Avalon, you feel much more strength and much more control over the dampers. The dampers are designed with two valves to be both compliant and composed. There is also more sound deadening material under hood. 93% of the bottom of the car is covered in sound deadening material (up from 68% in the 4ES). Admittedly, the car is not on the same level as the 5 Series or E Class or GS. It is not meant to be. It is significantly less expensive too. But, neither is the ES an Avalon that went to beauty school.

Suspension sub-frame reinforcement, laser screw welds and all of that extra adhesive are also used in the Camry and Avalon - it's an inherent part of what makes everything on GA-K so strong and rigid 😉. But yes, the stiffening brace, tuning and trick swing-valve suspension are unique to the ES and help provide some improvement over the Camry and Avalon. Plus all of the sound deadening to provide a more Lexus-like cabin experience.

To be clear, I love the ES and had nothing but great things to say after driving it extensively last year. GA-K is a wonderful platform, and there's no doubt that part of the reason Toyota invested in such a strong, rigid, flexible platform for their own cars is so it would be able to "punch up" for Lexus products like ES, NX, RX, and whatever else we get.

The relationship between Camry/Avalon and ES is one that many people poke fun of, but you'll find me doing no such thing. They're all great IMO, though I dislike the design of the Avalon. It's just different to talk about a well engineered, stiff, capable FWD mainstream platform and a RWD performance-oriented platform - and of course, cost is a big part of that. We already know Lexus can engineer a great RWD chassis... it's just a shame we don't have it in anything short of the LS/LC.

 

[RAL]

My remarks are based upon information given at the 5ES reveal in Nashville in response to the question: What is the difference between an Avalon and an ES? I must have misunderstood.

 

[maiaramdan]

@RAL , both GA-K
both have the same 4 , 6 & hybrid engines
both have the same transmission
Regarding the chassis tuning honestly ask anyone and he / she will tell you that the Avalon is way better tuning especially in handling as the ES is somehow have the bloated Camry tuning

 

[Rob Grieveson]

Wow everyone is worried about how fast it will be - not something that interests the average owner of a luxury brand. They want luxury complete reliability and superb finishes. I have no doubt the performance will be more than adequate for the price range as it always has been. I like the rendering here and am somewhat less enthusiastic about the recent rendering of the way forward = just too much.

 

[GNS]

Toyota / Lexus are boasting their reliability standards which we all have seen that these brands are dependable. Probably, this is one of the reasons they think that its ok to be sluggish and all. I love Lexus products but the interior is really beginning to show its age plus a product life cycle of the IS is taking too long.

Being honest here, if BMW is as dependable as a Toyota / Lexus, that'll be the day I would say "sayonara" Toyota / Lexus.

If BMW was as reliable as a Lexus, or even 85% as reliable, I would already be in a 340i xDrive with that B58 engine and all the HP and torque I could ever want for a DD.

 

[Levi]

If BMW was as reliable as a Lexus, or even 85% as reliable, I would already be in a 340i xDrive with that B58 engine and all the HP and torque I could ever want for a DD.

It is not only about reliability, but also quality, fit and finish. BMW paint job is cheap compared to Lexus.

 

[ssun30]

The ES has superior ride quality, comfort, smoothness, interior space, and standard feature than any 5-series, A6 or E-class at similar price point. And in fact It's faster at the same price point too. If you judge it in terms of a luxury car in the traditional sense it's on similar level as the 7-series and A8 (but not the S-Class of course). It is that good. Saying it's not on the same level as those three requires comparing the ES with cars at a completely different price point.

What I find to be a missed opportunity with the last IS refresh (and recent Toyota/Lexus products in general) is they stuck with the 83.0mm stroke with the 2GR-FKS which kept its displacement at 3,456cc. The heavily oversquare design was a compromise made in late 90s when the original GR was designed and metallurgy back then limited the mean piston speed to less than 20 m/s; by the time the FKS was designed materials have improved significantly allowing for 20+ m/s operation reliably. The 2GR-FKS is a very advanced engine for mid-to-late 2010s: in fact by most car manufacturer's measurement it will receive a new generation codename (the difference to FE/FSE is similar to the difference from N55 to B58) and there still isn't any NA V6 engine with similar efficiency and specific output. The problem is competitors all went for a larger displacement: most of them are 3.7-3.8L. What Toyota should have done is increasing the stroke to the same 89.5mm as the 2UR-FSE to make the engine a 3.7L (basically 3/4 of the 5.0L V8). That way the engine would have 8% more power and torque making it still relevant in today's market. If you do the math you will find it can be very competitive. It would also make it a much better replacement to the 1GR-FE. The only policy incentive to stay under 3.5L is lower taxes in JDM, but they don't sell a lot of 350s in JDM to begin with, as most sales are 2.0T.

 

[Trexus]

Toyota should have developed a new 3JZ-GTE straight 6 motor and drop it in the new MKV Supra instead of the B58. Lexus could have used that new 3JZ-GTE motor in the next generation IS 300 and other Lexus/Toyota models. Heck bring back the SC and use that same 3JZ-GTE to power an entry level SC 300.

 

[MichaelL]

Not having a really update to the IS and the RC is ridiculous, terrible, and shortsighted. The competition has new and updated cars, the last IS/RC was already outclassed by the competition and now Lexus wants to reuse the same platform? Really? Don't bother, just kill it like the GS.... (just kidding, shouldn't give them any more stupid ideas!)

And what happens when the SUV/CUV craze slows or end? Then what? One thing I do know is trends and tastes change. Since so many people are going to SUVs ( who the heck knows why?) the influencers and trend setters will move to something else as driving an SUV won't be cool when everyone else is doing it, too common. Bell bottom pants, mullet hairstyle, leather jackets, super baggy jeans, etc... trends don't stay stagnant for long.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

And what happens when the SUV/CUV craze slows or end? Then what? One thing I do know is trends and tastes change. Since so many people are going to SUVs ( who the heck knows why?) the influencers and trend setters will move to something else as driving an SUV won't be cool when everyone else is doing it, too common. Bell bottom pants, mullet hairstyle, leather jackets, super baggy jeans, etc... trends don't stay stagnant for long.

I've thought that too. But we reached the point where nearly everyone and the influencers were driving SUVs/CUVs 5 years ago. And they're all still driving SUVs and CUVs. The only place I regularly see celebs driving regular cars is Jay Leno's Garage.

 

[MichaelL]

I've thought that too. But we reached the point where nearly everyone and the influencers were driving SUVs/CUVs 5 years ago. And they're all still driving SUVs and CUVs. The only place I regularly see celebs driving regular cars is Jay Leno's Garage.

I agree with you, but I am confident it will change, might take some time... no trends last forever.

 

[Gecko]

I actually think SUVs are here to stay. Most people don't care about driving, meaning they won't see the value in more connection with the road through lower ground clearance, tighter suspensions, etc, (passenger cars) and SUVs are so much easier to live with day-to-day. Easier to haul your stuff, much easier to get in and out of, more comfortable when you have more people, better visibility on the road, etc. The biggest "pro" for sedans is MPG, but that gap has closed significantly.

 

[ssun30]

Yes, as much as I like the low CoG of TNGA sedans, they are a bit too low to the ground for practicality.

 

[meth.ix]

yea, i dont think this SUV stuff is just a trend anymore, its a step in the evolution of automobile design

 

[Levi]

Most people don't care about driving, meaning they won't see the value in more connection with the road through lower ground clearance, tighter suspensions, etc, (passenger cars)

And yet there have never been so many road focused high performance CUVs that on the trail can barely keep up with a Subaru Forester: SQ5, SQ7, RSQ8, GLC AMG, GLE AMG, X1 M sport, X2 M Sport, X3 M, X4 M, X5 M, X6 M, Macan Turbo, Cayenne Turbo, Urus, Velar, F-Pace SVR, Range Rover Sport SVR, Stelvio QV, DBX, Levante GTS, Grand Cherokee Trackhawk, Explorer ST?, soon Ferrari...

... and all Lexus has is a FWD(-based) RX 450h with F-Sport package. Whatever the trend might be, Lexus was and still is behind it. LFA, long wait; IS-F, one gen too late; RC, two gens too late; GS-F, skipped a gen and came to next gen unprepared; LC, flagship of UX?

I just do not get how the inventer of CUVs lost in the long run. Even if Tesla fails, they will have held longer than Lexus in the CUV race.

Regarding the CUV trend to stay, the main reason that nobody knows is not just higher: it is eyesight level while sitting/driving that is approximately at the same level as when standing, we are more used to orientate at this level. Any higher, like a panel van, and people won't like it either.

Only then is butt position, at approximately the same height as when standing. The same reason as stools at at bar are higher than chairs at the table. It makes it easier to take a seat and to get up. Also because parallel parking spaces are tight, so doors can't open wide. Raked and inclined front door window frame makes it even worse.

But that does not make the sitting position comfortable either. Land Cruiser is like sitting in a nice office desk chair, other cuvs are like sitting on a toilet. Low cars and sports cars are like sitting in a couch, but some are better, others are worse. Putting a low sitting position in a CUV can make the more comfortable and increase ground clearance, but will have a higher floor base wich reduces interior volume. For legs the car has to be longer which becomes less practical. ZDX is the prefect CUV for me, but so imperfect in may other ways.

Whatever, CUVs are imperfect and cannot please everyone, looks like the industry and people have settled for the worst compromise.

Lexus decides: RX-F or IS-F? But it should pick one, not none.


PS: Didn't notice, sorry for long post.

 

[internalaudit]

With BEVs, even more people will flock to CUVs as fuel savings will make the breakeven period shorter. Just notice how the RAV4H is now the best selling Toyota hybrid.

Was vacationing in Asia the past few weeks and as a rear seat passenger, it was so hard to get out of the Toyota Land Cruiser, BMW X5 and the older Toyota Fortuner as the step is so narrow ( I am too short to step down from the CUV floor directly to the pavement) and I had to also hold on to the ceiling arm grab on my way up. Maybe ingress and egress will be better in a Macan.

I still want a sports (enough) sedan that seats at least four adults comfortably and hoping the IS is offered in a fully electrified form. I can relax my torque vectoring requirement if Toyota does offer its sulfide-based electrolyte SSB along with it.

 

[Joaquin Ruhi]

@Levi : All that discussion about height reminds me of BMW. Their 3-Series GT and 6-Series GT models were almost exactly midway in height between their sedan and X crossover counterparts. Sounds perfect, but, in fact, they bombed in the market and are now discontinued.

 

[Airplane]

I beg to differ.

Might as well just kill IS instead of coming out with a shitty facelift that would do nothing to the brand, nor the enthusiasts, nor the car community, nor the customers.
kill the hope instead of giving people the hopeless hope that maybe, just maybe it would be worth the wait for a complete redesign of the IS after this facelift, or it would be worth the wait for this facelift.
lets face it, when was the last time a facelift was significant?

Just kill it and let people move on to other brands or the ES. How can you expect people to try buying your product when your own brand does not even try to make people try buying them?

 

[Sulu]

I actually think SUVs are here to stay. Most people don't care about driving, meaning they won't see the value in more connection with the road through lower ground clearance, tighter suspensions, etc, (passenger cars) and SUVs are so much easier to live with day-to-day. Easier to haul your stuff, much easier to get in and out of, more comfortable when you have more people, better visibility on the road, etc. The biggest "pro" for sedans is MPG, but that gap has closed significantly.

I believe that the utility vehicle (high-riding but car-based crossover utility vehicles, and heavier-duty, including body-on-frame sport utility vehicles) trend is exactly that -- a trend -- but like the minivan trend that came before, when the CUV/SUV fashion statement runs its course, there will still be more utility vehicles on the market to choose from (compared to before the fashion trend started); the choice and the number of models will just be less.

I believe that most crossover utility vehicles can be replaced by lower-riding station wagons (i.e. I see a CUV as a station wagon on stilts).

One reason behind the rise in utility vehicles, in my opinion, and the reason for its ultimate near-demise, is fuel efficiency. With fuel prices being low (especially here in North America), there has not been the incentive for buyers to switch to lighter-weight, lower-riding sedans. Yes, the fuel efficiency of car-based crossovers (at least on paper) is close to the fuel efficiency of cars, but the extra weight and the larger frontal area (due to high ride height) will mean that the crossover's fuel efficiency will never be equal to the equivalent-sized car.

More and more jurisdictions around the world are starting to complain that they will not be able to match their stated lower greenhouse gas emissions targets because too many people are driving utility vehicles, which use more fuel than cars; switching gasoline-powered utility vehicles with EV crossovers won't help much either because the electric utility vehicle will still use more fuel (electricity) than the comparable electric car.

I see this as meaning that governments world-wide will start to implement programs to encourage drivers to switch to (smaller) cars and discourage drivers from driving utility vehicles.