The Future of the IS Thread

[CT2IS]

Whoever said the IS200t/300 (8AR-FTS) competes with the 320i is absolutely correct. The 330i compares with the IS350, and honestly in acceleration, blows its doors off despite being only 4 cylinders. The 320i and IS200t are more evenly paired. On paper I believe the 320i is either identical in acceleration or .01 slower (negligible at best). I believe 6.9 vs 7.0 or 7.1.

The turbo IS does have bigger brakes and bigger standard tire package. It's overall competitive with the 330i in other merits of performance, just not in terms of engine output/acceleration. The 320i is just a software detuned 328i.

Lexus has some serious catching up to do if it wants to compete with the upcoming 0-60 in 4.2s G20 340i.

Remember... Lexus thinks BMW powertrains are so great, they chose the BMW 4-turbo and BMW 6-turbo instead of using their own powerplants for the new Supra. Even chief Lexus engineer said he was impressed with BMW engineering during the new Supra/Z4 collab.

 

[spwolf]

I don't get this debate about lease prices. It's the sales department's problem if their lease prices are uncompetitive not the product's own problem, right?

He is right. People walk in to discuss payment. Dealers advertise payments. Thus some brands have more leverage and you can get a 60k car for the same monthly has a 45k one. Infiniti and BMW more than anyone subsidizes leases where some models/packages are super attractive. Quite frankly it is really tough to beat a Q50 when you can lease them for $299/$399/$499 with minimal down. Those are Camry payments.

If people are cross shopping cars, they sure as hell are cross shopping payments.

Only the rare really savvy buyer discusses MSRP and negotiates from there.

It is of my opinion cross shopping is overrated and more an internet thing. I find people want what they want and already know it. They might consider something else if it is cheaper or they surprisingly fall in in love with it.

I help people with buying/leasing cars all the time. Rarely is someone totally unbiased and comparing cars on facts, test drives etc. Most like the looks, like the badge, want some features (NAV etc) and want a cheap payment.

Lexus gives that kind of support to cars likeRX, not IS... every manufacturer picks which are their core vehicles.

 

[internalaudit]

Whoever said the IS200t/300 (8AR-FTS) competes with the 320i is absolutely correct. The 330i compares with the IS350, and honestly in acceleration, blows its doors off despite being only 4 cylinders. The 320i and IS200t are more evenly paired. On paper I believe the 320i is either identical in acceleration or .01 slower (negligible at best). I believe 6.9 vs 7.0 or 7.1.

The turbo IS does have bigger brakes and bigger standard tire package. It's overall competitive with the 330i in other merits of performance, just not in terms of engine output/acceleration. The 320i is just a software detuned 328i.

Lexus has some serious catching up to do if it wants to compete with the upcoming 0-60 in 4.2s G20 340i.

Remember... Lexus thinks BMW powertrains are so great, they chose the BMW 4-turbo and BMW 6-turbo instead of using their own powerplants for the new Supra. Even chief Lexus engineer said he was impressed with BMW engineering during the new Supra/Z4 collab.

How about giving it a much better MPG than the BMW via mild electrification? I don't mind the 4IS being slower by a second or two than the mid-level G20 if it means it can get 50% more MPG than a BMW when city-driving and maybe 30% in highway driving. In order of priority: reliability, handling, fuel economy, other creature comforts. I don't mind sticking a smartphone mount if there isn't any Android Auto on the 4IS.

I think most who purchase a Lexus keeps the car longer than the typical 3-4 year lease period. Let's not kid ourselves, if money and functionality were no object for me, I would get a Porsche Cayman but it's too impractical for my household.

Also, from the article, BMW engineers were so surprised why each part, including bolts, were being sent to head office for further studies.

 

[Sakura]

Whoever said the IS200t/300 (8AR-FTS) competes with the 320i is absolutely correct. The 330i compares with the IS350, and honestly in acceleration, blows its doors off despite being only 4 cylinders. The 320i and IS200t are more evenly paired. On paper I believe the 320i is either identical in acceleration or .01 slower (negligible at best). I believe 6.9 vs 7.0 or 7.1.

The turbo IS does have bigger brakes and bigger standard tire package. It's overall competitive with the 330i in other merits of performance, just not in terms of engine output/acceleration. The 320i is just a software detuned 328i.

Lexus has some serious catching up to do if it wants to compete with the upcoming 0-60 in 4.2s G20 340i.

Remember... Lexus thinks BMW powertrains are so great, they chose the BMW 4-turbo and BMW 6-turbo instead of using their own powerplants for the new Supra. Even chief Lexus engineer said he was impressed with BMW engineering during the new Supra/Z4 collab.

I was the one that said that and thank you for agreeing.

Yes. Lexus does have a lot of catching up to do if it wants to compete with the G20 M340i. But its not that much catching up. They have the tech and engine ready already. Its a matter of if they want to create a Lexus IS400 TTV6 to compete with the M340i.

I see the 4G Lexus IS line up going two ways:
1) Lexus IS300, 350, and 400
2) Lexus IS300, 350 and IS-F. My money is on the IS-F because its likely to come before a IS400.

 

[ssun30]

How about giving it a much better MPG than the BMW via mild electrification?

Mild hybrid is not cheaper than full hybrid, and that's the problem which prevents it from really spreading. Lexus will have an entire full hybrid lineup by 2025, for them mild hybrid is an unnecessary technological dead-end. Many supporters of the mild hybrid are European manufacturers who invested too much into the soon-to-be-dead diesel technology and cannot catch up in the hybrid game.

 

[joepac]

Lexus has some serious catching up to do if it wants to compete with the upcoming 0-60 in 4.2s G20 340i.

This is where I hope they would inject a "Pre-F" Is400 model but as has been pointed out, given Lexus' mindset, this ain't gon' happen.

They'll prob make an IS-F as the next tier up which will be on par with the 340i and the M3/C AMG/QF et.al will go uncontested by Lexus... Again.

But again it is apparent Lexus' MO does not include a serious commitment to performance outside of sporadically injecting F badged cars with limited performance that took almost a decade to develop. But hey, theyre reliable.

 

[CIF]

Remember... Lexus thinks BMW powertrains are so great, they chose the BMW 4-turbo and BMW 6-turbo instead of using their own powerplants for the new Supra. Even chief Lexus engineer said he was impressed with BMW engineering during the new Supra/Z4 collab.

We don't know the full story about the MK5 Supra yet....

With that said, let me add the whole story regarding what Toyota thinks of BMW engineering. During their shared meetings before Supra/Z4 development started, Toyota was impressed with some aspects of BMW engineering and R&D and appalled at other aspects. The reverse scenario also occurred, because simply put BMW and Toyota corporate cultures are radically different.

 

[joepac]

We don't know the full story about the MK5 Supra yet....

With that said, let me add the whole story regarding what Toyota thinks of BMW engineering. During their shared meetings before Supra/Z4 development started, Toyota was impressed with some aspects of BMW engineering and R&D and appalled at other aspects. The reverse scenario also occurred, because simply put BMW and Toyota corporate cultures are radically different.

Anyone got a link to this article? Sounds interesting.

 

[Joaquin Ruhi]

Anyone got a link to this article? Sounds interesting.

It's somewhere in the last 4 or 5 pages of the Mk5 Supra thread on these forums.

 

[Gecko]

Remember... Lexus thinks BMW powertrains are so great, they chose the BMW 4-turbo and BMW 6-turbo instead of using their own powerplants for the new Supra. Even chief Lexus engineer said he was impressed with BMW engineering during the new Supra/Z4 collab.

Just to be clear, this isn't really true. The main reason Toyota chose BMW as a partner to build the Supra is that BMW had an off-the-shelf I6 design which is true to the heritage of the Supra. Building a one-off I6 for a low volume sports car makes zero sense - it was a business decision. Now, plenty of folks have feelings about a BMW engine inside Toyota's most legendary sports car - myself included - but this decision wasn't, "Oh, BMW builds better engines than we do. Let's use them for the Supra."

Quite frankly, if they hadn't wanted to stay true to the heritage of an I6, V35A-FTS would have been a kick-ass engine for the Supra. I really wish they'd gone that route, actually.

416hp/442lb-ft of torque in a 3,200lb car? Yeeeeah. I'll take it!

 

[Joaquin Ruhi]

I've often fantasized and wondered why Toyota didn't just follow the BMW, Mercedes and (rumored) Jaguar playbook and take their 2-liter inline 4 and add a couple of cylinders to create a 3-liter inline 6 of their own. In other words, either add a couple of cylinders to the 8AR-FTS turbo 2-liter inline 4 or add the cylinders + turbo to the newer Dynamic Force M20A-FKS 2-liter 4.

Probably, as Gecko noted, they couldn't make a business case for it even though such an indigenous Toyota/Lexus inline 6 could've also been used in the Toyota Crown, myriad Lexus RWD-platform cars and even in the upcoming TNGA-F body-on-frame truck platform vehicles. Then again, the longer inline 6 would probably wreak havoc with the pseudo-front-mid-engine placement of the GA-L and TNGA-N platforms and adversely affect handling... :confounded:

 

[GNS]

Anyone got a link to this article? Sounds interesting.

http://club4ag.com/chief-engineer-t...gh-a-viewpoint-of-joint-development-with-bmw/

http://youwheel.com/home/2016/03/27/detailed-analysis-the-bmw-b58-inline-6-cylinder-engine/

I had little confidence in BMW's reliability quotient before reading these articles, and even less afterwards. This is why I'm looking forward very much to seeing if Lexus will put the TTV6 into a top trim, non F-model IS. I know CUV and SUV fever is in full swing, and the luxury sports sedan market is in decline despite the strong offerings from BMW, Audi, MB, Genesis, Infiniti...and Kia (sportback).

Even so, this doesn't mean that I'm going to just shrug my shoulders, apologize for Lexus' shortcomings and plunk down money for an IS with a NA V6 that's been in use since 2006. It doesn't matter how reliable it is, I want more power. I won't get mad if Lexus doesn't do what I hope they'll end up doing, but it means that I'll be looking at a competitor vehicle and the G70 is at the very top of that list.

 

[joepac]

http://club4ag.com/chief-engineer-t...gh-a-viewpoint-of-joint-development-with-bmw/

http://youwheel.com/home/2016/03/27/detailed-analysis-the-bmw-b58-inline-6-cylinder-engine/

I had little confidence in BMW's reliability quotient before reading these articles, and even less afterwards. This is why I'm looking forward very much to seeing if Lexus will put the TTV6 into a top trim, non F-model IS. I know CUV and SUV fever is in full swing, and the luxury sports sedan market is in decline despite the strong offerings from BMW, Audi, MB, Genesis, Infiniti...and Kia (sportback).

Even so, this doesn't mean that I'm going to just shrug my shoulders, apologize for Lexus' shortcomings and plunk down money for an IS with a NA V6 that's been in use since 2006. It doesn't matter how reliable it is, I want more power. I won't get mad if Lexus doesn't do what I hope they'll end up doing, but it means that I'll be looking at a competitor vehicle and the G70 is at the very top of that list.

I wouldn't be mad either just disappointed and vote with my feet. I will always have my 2IS.

 

[internalaudit]

Even Mazda realized people like power and added about 30 HP to the 2019 Miata.

 

[GNS]

Even Mazda realized people like power and added about 30 HP to the 2019 Miata.

And they're putting in a 2.5T into the CX-5.

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

Mild hybrid is not cheaper than full hybrid, and that's the problem which prevents it from really spreading. Lexus will have an entire full hybrid lineup by 2025, for them mild hybrid is an unnecessary technological dead-end. Many supporters of the mild hybrid are European manufacturers who invested too much into the soon-to-be-dead diesel technology and cannot catch up in the hybrid game.

Thank you!! No truer words have ever been said in regards to the European car industry. I love how they're trying to copy the Japanese (and yet stupid fan girls say otherwise). Japan FTW. Period.

 

[LexiF]

So are we saying we can’t have a performance V6 and high performance V8 in the same model? So even though the 2IS series was capable to hold both in its range the 4IS will not due to the inability to sell them? Costing too much to invest to inevitably make a loss and fail in the segment of performance saloons. So Lexus performance should be widely known as being decent but is not a priority and therefore their F marquee is focused solely on mid performance e.g. 340i/440i, c43 AMG, S5 Quattro etc. Or should it focus on the high performance spectrum in the same category as the M3, C63 AMG etc. Leaving a void in a cheaper mid performance, luxury and comfortable trim leaving all competitors to cater for this market? I cannot understand how the LS has a bigger audience and potentially larger market then the IS and RC! A LS500 (V6 TT) and (rumoured) LSF (V8 TT) is plausible yet others are not? That would be complete madness!

This is why I believe what I’m told that the IS will house more varients with hybrids, 2.0T, 2.5 V6, 3.5TT and V8TT. To me that sounds like a strong line up catering to many customers including new ones due to the modern engines, performance alternatives, reliability, luxury, economy and the best customer service!

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

So are we saying we can’t have a performance V6 and high performance V8 in the same model? So even though the 2IS series was capable to hold both in its range the 4IS will not due to the inability to sell them? Costing too much to invest to inevitably make a loss and fail in the segment of performance saloons. So Lexus performance should be widely known as being decent but is not a priority and therefore their F marquee is focused solely on mid performance e.g. 340i/440i, c43 AMG, S5 Quattro etc. Or should it focus on the high performance spectrum in the same category as the M3, C63 AMG etc. Leaving a void in a cheaper mid performance, luxury and comfortable trim leaving all competitors to cater for this market? I cannot understand how the LS has a bigger audience and potentially larger market then the IS and RC! A LS500 (V6 TT) and (rumoured) LSF (V8 TT) is plausible yet others are not? That would be complete madness!

This is why I believe what I’m told that the IS will house more varients with hybrids, 2.0T, 2.5 V6, 3.5TT and V8TT. To me that sounds like a strong line up catering to many customers including new ones due to the modern engines, performance alternatives, reliability, luxury, economy and the best customer service!

I've been wanting this for forever. Use Mercedes-Benz/AMG's playbook! Though they need to make some monumental changes on their cars for that to happen like switching to RWD and having complex AWD systems to accompany them. Still, the UX (and CT if it comes back) could be FWD city cars because it makes sense. Have an LFA at the very top as well.

Lexus is the company that is most akin to Mercedes-Benz. One has German style, and the other has Japanese flair. These two are definitely the best luxury car companies out there (we can't forget about pesky Porsche either).

 

[Trexus]

I am hoping Carmaker1 is correct in that two hybrid versions are going to be offered for the next gen IS. I definitely will not want to finance a new car that isn't a hybrid, PHEV or BEV.

Of course if I go used, then I won't mind a pure ICEV as I've already saved enough on depreciation alone.

That would be very awesome to have two IS hybrids and an EV version as well. Lexus should have brought the IS 300h a long time ago to North America to increase it's hybrid presence in the Lexus line-up.

IS 300h (2AR-FSE)
IS 450h (2GR-FXS)
IS 300e (EV version)

 

[GNS]

That would be very awesome to have two IS hybrids and an EV version as well. Lexus should have brought the IS 300h a long time ago to North America to increase it's hybrid presence in the Lexus line-up.

IS 300h (2AR-FSE)
IS 450h (2GR-FXS)
IS 300e (EV version)

Speaking of which, @Carmaker1 was supposed to have shared some tidbit about the 4IS back on Sept 23