Reviews: The Fifth Generation (XF50) Lexus LS

[ssun30]

Recently bought a Volvo XC60, and as much as I regret every penny spent on it, I have to say the dynamic radar cruise control on that vehicle works really well. Saved a lot of energy on a 3,000 mile road trip.

 

[spwolf]

Recently bought a Volvo XC60, and as much as I regret every penny spent on it, I have to say the dynamic radar cruise control on that vehicle works really well. Saved a lot of energy on a 3,000 mile road trip.

i agree, it is a must have for me for next purchase (luckily around here almost all Toyotas have it), but when I talked to my friends who have it in their cars, I noticed that nobody ever uses it - they all tried it, are young guys that know about technology, but dont like using it.

 

[Benito]

Recently bought a Volvo XC60, and as much as I regret every penny spent on it, I have to say the dynamic radar cruise control on that vehicle works really well. Saved a lot of energy on a 3,000 mile road trip.

I am looking forward to completing engine break in on my new NX200t and will then to finally have a chance to see what dynamic cruise control is all about.

 

[Gecko]

Hey guys - lets get this back on track to the LS 500, please. Thanks!

 

[corradoMR2]

Radar cruise can be very jarring -- the system in my IS is great, and the LS is even better. LS actually feels natural the way it applies the brakes.

I'm not too fond of the DRRC in today's current Lexus lineup as it never seems to keep up to the car in after an initial slow down and acceleration. It leaves a gap for a car to move in front of me from another lane and the DRCC then suddenly will brake to maintain the distance when a human would normally not apply the brakes and just allow for a (temporary) closer distance.

Sounds like the next LS (finally) has a smoother more "human-like" control/response!

 

[spwolf]

I'm not too fond of the DRRC in today's current Lexus lineup as it never seems to keep up to the car in after an initial slow down and acceleration. It leaves a gap for a car to move in front of me from another lane and the DRCC then suddenly will brake to maintain the distance when a human would normally not apply the brakes and just allow for a (temporary) closer distance.

Sounds like the next LS (finally) has a smoother more "human-like" control/response!

i wonder the difference between base and top systems in LS... will there be difference in DRRC performance too?

 

[Daniel Guyton]

Here is my technical overview of the 2018 LS -- I'm saving my personal impressions for later in the week, as a full tech breakdown can be really useful in reading the more opinionated reviews on other sites.

Post up any reviews you read, I'll be putting together a mega-post with the best of the best later on today.

Enjoy the day, only happens once with a new model!

I like how everyone is getting to "review" "drive" and "check-out" the new LS....all except the techs who have to fix the damn thing. We don't know anything about the new releases anymore. Cant even get trained on new products until they're released to public, so we're always in catch-up/defense mode. :-(

 

[Carmaker1]

The LF-FC was designed *after* this LS. It is the concept for the *next* LS, not this one. You *will* see a production car with those cues, but it'll be in 2021 or so probably.

And as a long-time LS owner I'm getting a little salty about people advocating that Lexus price me out of the car. Lexus just does not have the brand image that Mercedes and BMW have and making the car more expensive for no reason isn't gonna help.

My assumption is that the ~2021 LS refresh will end up looking quite a bit like the LF-FC... for all the reasons you mentioned above. Lexus has been doing this with several models, where the production car is a bit more conservative vs. the concept, and then come time for a refresh, we get deja vu.

We've all been telling you this for months - @Carmaker1 and others have laid out the design timelines and production decisions in previous threads.

Oh God, thank you! : unamused: It is because as long it's "my word", he will not consider it as valid. With my field experience and being an excellent study of the automotive industry like a number of us are, I learned a long time ago the processes for developing such model lines and what is feasible or plausible.

While I was off on the start date and overall duration for the 200B programme, I was dead right on the design being set back in 2014. Even back in July 2014, I knew they already had a final design under wraps and didn't even know back then this car wouldn't arrive until end of 2017 for JDM and Q1 2018 for export markets. I expected late 2016, as projected in mid-2014. A few people had already correctly shot for a "summer 2017" estimate.

Toshio Asahi himself, finally confirmed my correctly estimated beliefs back in January. For instance, Toshio Asahi stated that the 200B programme from early work to projected conclusion of development, was over 5 years. He point blank stated, it took 2 YEARS to design the car and then 3 years to engineer the chosen FINAL body shape.

At this point, the car in reality has been delayed even more at Toyoda's request. That 3 years to engineer for production from design completion, is now more like 42ish months (since design switched to engineering), plus roughly 6 years of total research and development.

Despite that, I disliked the fact he was chosen as chief engineer, having only worked on current the XV60 ES from 2007 to 2012. Than handed over the topmost job? More than likely, his duties even overlapped early on. The XV60 did not complete development before the end of 2011. Why wasn't the chief engineer of the LFA on this car? Why did Toyoda favour presenting the Camry over the LS 500, instead of just doing both? I digress.

Anyway, Asahi-san's January interview with Ward's Auto highlights my point. Two, as for the LF-FC, they clearly took the 5LS and did an even more avantgarde take on the car (sans engineering compromises), during the second half of 2014. The photograph of the silver dinoc-coated clay LF-FC, was dated on December 9, 2014.

The first sketches were dated 3 months earlier in September 2014. The technical aspects of the LF-FC required a bit more significant engineering than most TMC concept cars developed by advanced design personnel, but not as much time needed as the LF-LC and FT-1 at 18 months.

Simply put, people started talking about this car as early as July 2014, because they had SEEN it, meaning Toyota had finally gotten to a point where they had something tangible to show them. In the form of clay or fibreglass models in fullscale. Plus that of actual master model builds or prototypes. All of this transpired, by the time a photo of the LF-FC mockup was taken at their Tokyo Studios in December. That was final design approval for the LF-FC, spending the remaning 8-9 months finalizing it and making it drivable.

Even by December 2014, Japanese mag Kodansha aka Best Car delivered an inferior, yet unusually accurate blue colour rendering of the 5LS. Why? Because someone with eyes on the inside, gave them info.

So I will admit, some of my speculations were wrong. But what do you expect? I don't work for Lexus, let alone TMC. Even secondhand or third-party info, isn't always enough. The real concept for the LS, is closer to the 2012 sketch in my avatar. Both the LF-FC and LS were developed from that at different times. With the LS requiring more than double the lead time of the LF-FC, it had to come first or be delayed significantly.

What I cannot understand though, is why is it that anyone, would think that a captain of industry automobile, such as this LS, should be easy last minute work to revise in record time? Lead times exist for a reason, as engineers cannot endlessly chase moving targets.

Even without the necessary background info on the 200B, how can you gripe and expect them change up a final design to reflect a subsequently designed concept? The outgoing LS was frozen 2.5 years before intro, this one much earlier.

Also, why would you expect Toyota to be so transparent with development methods and timelines? That is competitive information, which they'd not so easily hope to make too obvious. Asahi even mentioning that timeline, was a gem for me, and atypical of Toyota to disclose.

I first saw this car 11 months ago, here in the UK in the form of the LS 500h. I had known for sure that would be a V6 hybrid, because of the LC 500h powertrain. What I didn't know about, was the LS 500. My initial reaction was thankfully more than lukewarm, but I got past that with the idea that the LS 500 I had yet to see would eclipse the V8 competition with the 2UR-GSE from LC.

Some Lexus people I asked about the 500, said it would have a V8 and 1 senior person, cynically suggested I wait some 6 weeks to find out (he knew otherwise). The remaining majority had no clue and said nothing. The potential for tech aspects and revolutionary firsts, is what kept me interested as the LS500h I only saw and nothing more on the 5LS until NAIAS. I signed a NDA, not to describe that LS500h. They knew who I posted as online.

Last January, I was so disappointed that the nomenclature was muddled how it was and the last of Japanese rumours weren't lies. The LS 500 was indeed the heralded TTV6, I had hoped would sit below or semi-parallel to a 2UR offering as LS350t or LS400t.

I feel let down by this car in some ways, where there are many features its competitors have by comparison and in some cases, even in lower models. I just hope Lexus has greater plans for it in the short term, that don't solely rely on F performance or fuel cell variants.

It is a good product, but is missing some features that make me question the objectives of Toshio Asahi's team and Akio Toyoda care for the product. It seems thst only mega moneymakers (Camry), sports cars, and traditional "humble" Toyotas (Crown Taxi) that only get his personal touch or recognition.

 

[Carmaker1]

By the way, I am convinced that the LS FC Concept is what will debut at Tokyo. It is shameless tacky how Japanese magazines, are now putting out lies in the manner that they are. Where the hell did they get the idea to drop such a bombshell about the LS F at Tokyo , which has no truth to it?

Same way they mentioned a new Mazda RX coupe, a new Z, and Supra reveal.

Toyota only has 9 debuts, so people better hope Lexus and Daihatsu are not part of that tally.

 

[bogglo]

By the way, I am convinced that the LS FC Concept is what will debut at Tokyo. It is shameless tacky how Japanese magazines, are now putting out lies in the manner that they are. Where the hell did they get the idea to drop such a bombshell about the LS F at Tokyo , which has no truth to it?

Same way they mentioned a new Mazda RX coupe, a new Z, and Supra reveal.

Toyota only has 9 debuts, so people better hope Lexus and Daihatsu are not part of that tally.

Even though I wanted to see the supposed supra at Tokyo, I think you have a point.

 

[Carmaker1]

Even though I wanted to see the supposed supra at Tokyo, I think you have a point.

There is still a chance, but it gets so much more narrow with each "announcement" of pointless drivel like that TJ.

I think I have discovered what the mystery concept is, but had since forgotten last month. The next IS is being pushed up it seems, to get GA-L. Not sure what LS-FC will be though.

 

[bogglo]

There is still a chance, but it gets so much more narrow with each "announcement" of pointless drivel like that TJ.

I think I have discovered what the mystery concept is, but had since forgotten last month. The next IS is being pushed up it seems, to get GA-L. Not sure what LS-FC will be though.

If the next IS concept is displayed then I guess that would be even more interesting than a supra reveal.

 

[spwolf]

There is still a chance, but it gets so much more narrow with each "announcement" of pointless drivel like that TJ.

I think I have discovered what the mystery concept is, but had since forgotten last month. The next IS is being pushed up it seems, to get GA-L. Not sure what LS-FC will be though.

BMW has already announced their Z4... so Supra is going to be shown very soon.

 

[MichaelL]

If the next IS concept is displayed then I guess that would be even more interesting than a supra reveal.

I would like to see the next IS. The current one needs an update, anyone know the timeline for the next one? Thanks

 

[spwolf]

I would like to see the next IS. The current one needs an update, anyone know the timeline for the next one? Thanks

facelift started production in July 2017... so at minimum 2019 production start and more likely 2020.

 

[CIF]

So now that the LS has officially launched in Japan, a revised press release was issued with virtually no new information.

It now seems like there probably won't be any new surprise or hidden world-first or world class features announced at this point.

I'm still disappointed and frustrated that Lexus has not released any specific information pertaining to this:

http://pressroom.lexus.com/releases/lexus-reimagines-global-flagship-sedan-2018-ls.htm

The original Lexus LS won acclaim by anticipating what luxury customers would want, rather than simply amplifying what established luxury automobile brands offered at the time. In that spirit, the 2018 LS sedan’s spacious cabin, unique appointments and visionary technology will once again surprise customers by resetting expectations for a global flagship sedan.

“We set previously unheard of targets and resolutely pushed ahead towards these ambitious goals,” said LS chief engineer, Asahi. “The customers who are going to want to own a Lexus flagship are already surrounded by luxury on a daily basis, people who have a sharp eye for authenticity to begin with. We wouldn’t turn their heads with a conventional premium product.”

As the S Class is the class leader here, most expectations for a global flagship sedan are based around what the S Class offers. Also that second bolded part from chief engineer Asahi is a very bold claim, as I have previously mentioned here on TLE.

Exactly what were these "unheard of" targets Chief Engineer Asahi? Lexus, exactly what expectations did you reset for a global flagship sedan?

The new LS has a number of world firsts, but I feel not quite enough to go toe-to-toe with the S Class.

Where are the technical, specific details on quality, reliability, and craftsmanship improvements made over the 4LS? For example, the 3LS press release from way back was famous among Lexus enthusiasts for the specific technical details that were included about how quality, reliability, and craftsmanship was improved.

How many total hours were spent testing the 5LS? How long was the R&D process? How many engineers were involved?

The full press release for the 5LS, while mentioning some details and lots of superlatives, still lacks many specific technical details.

Lexus, if you're going to make bold claims and profound statements like those bolded above, you better be ready to back that up with concrete information. Otherwise you will frustrate and alienate Lexus enthusiasts such as myself.

Krew, mikeavelli, are you able to shed light or share anything regarding this matter?

 

[Ian Schmidt]

I think it's pretty clear that Lexus isn't playing any of those traditional marketing games this time. It's a much more direct "here's the car, take it or leave it". And that's fine with me; I don't care about flowery statements or endless XLS files, I care what you feel driving the thing.

 

[CIF]

I think it's pretty clear that Lexus isn't playing any of those traditional marketing games this time. It's a much more direct "here's the car, take it or leave it". And that's fine with me; I don't care about flowery statements or endless XLS files, I care what you feel driving the thing.

That's perfectly fine, there's nothing wrong with that.

I totally agree with you in theory. I just think that Lexus should have kept quiet then and not made such boasts in the press release.

 

[krew]

Where are the technical, specific details on quality, reliability, and craftsmanship improvements made over the 4LS? For example, the 3LS press release from way back was famous among Lexus enthusiasts for the specific technical details that were included about how quality, reliability, and craftsmanship was improved.

How many total hours were spent testing the 5LS? How long was the R&D process? How many engineers were involved?

I don't believe that a massive press release is the proper way to tell these stories any more. Instead, we're going to keep seeing smaller articles that highlight specific elements of the LS -- here are three examples:

http://newsroom.lexus.eu/2018-lexus...ip-stories-chapter-1-origami-fabric-pleating/

http://newsroom.lexus.eu/2018-lexus-ls-takumi-craftsmanship-stories-chapter-2-kiriko-glasswork/

http://newsroom.lexus.eu/2018-lexus-ls-takumi-craftsmanship-stories-chapter-3-art-wood/

All three of these "Takumi Craftsmanship Stories" have the kind of detail you're looking for.

 

[Gecko]

@Ian Schmidt posted this in the Lexus/Genesis thread originally and as I kept typing my reply, I realized that it probably belonged more here, so here are some random thoughts:

PS: anyone notice Mercedes cut the S-Class base price in the US by $5000?

I didn't see this until you mentioned it... 362hp S450 now starts at $89,900. Didn't the S550 start at like $98k before? New S560 starts at $103k and includes AWD as standard.

Also, BMW seems to be only offering one wheelbase on the 7 series now. Did anyone notice that?

I think LS 500 vs. S450 is a no brainer - there's no way I'd consider the S over the LS at that price point, and the Lexus starts $15k lower. LS 500 vs S560 is a $28k question and while some will say "People shopping in this price bracket don't care about value," that price difference is roughly 1/3 to 1/4 of the value of the car. We're not talking about a few thousand dollars of difference. That's significant (IMO).

I do look forward to someone doing a comparo that's something like:

LS 500 vs. 740i vs S450 vs A8 3.0T and also LS 500 vs 750i vs S560 vs A8 4.0T

History has proven that it's very easy for journalists to drive something like a S560 and 750i back to back with an LS 500 and disregard the $25-30k price difference when it's not their money and you're driving the cars for 2-3 days trying to figure out which one you like most. This is when things like being the fastest, most fun to drive, or highest tech really shine... and the "price" factor isn't really considered until the conclusion is being written and they add "value" to the end of the argument. Then the headlines will become that LS isn't as good and it's not worth your time (if you're a buyer). Is that really the case in the real world, day to day? I highly doubt it.

Let's be honest - Mercedes offers a lot of tech in the S Class that it doesn't seem like LS has countered or included with the LS... but I'm not sure those things really make that much of a difference to the average shopper. GPS-controlled suspension that can make adjustments based on the road ahead? Very cool, but is that a selling feature that would get you to fork over $25k more? For me, no. For a journalist with no skin in the game, that's a pretty cool feature and gives you something neat to hype up in reviews. Day to day for the average shopper, I think 5LS is just as much car as the S560 up to probably 8/10ths. If you're extremely tech savvy and HAVE to have the latest and greatest, or you really desire a V8, then in that last 2/10ths, LS falls behind and is not the right car for you. It's that last 2/10ths that journalists will focus on without worrying about the price difference or making the payment with your own checkbook - or what the car will be worth in 2, 3, 4, 5 years when you're ready to get rid of it. Lexus buyers are much more conscious of these things, which will be good for the brand.

I think of this segment in three tiers:
Tier 1: Base V6 engines
Tier 2: V8 engines
Tier 3: High performance variants like AMG, R, P100D, etc.

The competitive set breaks out as follows:
Model S 75D: $74,500
LS 500: $75,000
A8 L 3.0T: $82,300 (TBD on pricing for the new model)
740i: $83,000
XJ L 3.0: $84,500
Panamera: $85,000
Panamera 4: $89,500
S450: $89,900
A8 4.0T: $92,000 (TBD on pricing for the new model)
S450 4Matic: $92,900
Model S 100D: $94,000
750i: $96,000
Panamera 4 Executive: $96,300
XJ L 5.0: $96,300
750i X Drive: $99,400
S 560 4Matic: $102,900
Panamera 4S: $103,000
Panamera 4S Executive: $113,900


I've made the comments that 1) I think Lexus made the right call with the new base 3.5L TT V6 and 2) that I think there should be a V8, non-F option. When you look at the prices and models above, I really believe that Lexus had an opening around $85-90k for an LS "550" with around 500 horsepower V8. To my earlier point, LS 500 will be more than enough engine for 90% of buyers, but there is a lot of competition at the middle of this segment as well, with S560, 750i, Panamera, Model S, XJ - models that are more emotional and driver-focused with bigger engines and more output. I know the argument can be made that the volume here is small and the juice isn't worth the squeeze, but I believe it would have looked good for Lexus to have a horse in this race. As it stands now, Lexus is straddling tiers 1 and 2 with LS 500 and I think it would have been great for them to solidly offer something in both, short of LS F.

While it's not the magazine racer or Youtube commenter who often buys cars in this class, once you start talking about Panamera (who Lexus execs have referenced as a consideration in LS redesign), XJ L 5.0 and others, it's just unfortunate that the LS isn't really mentioned in that company because the LS 500 lacks the muscle to go that extra 2/10ths. Perhaps when the LS F shows up, nobody will even care that there's no "middle" V8 car. Time will tell.