Reviews: The 2019 Lexus ES 350 & ES 300h

[krew]

Krew just out of curiosity does Lexus ever make feedback driven changes between the time the media drives the vehicles and production? Im talking most about the downshifting delay on the 8 speed transmission which every single reviewer to date has pointed out as a major buzzkill. I understand no major transmission changes would probably be made but one or two reviewers said this could be corrected with a software update. Any thoughts?

I can answer with confidence that this is a no, unless the downshifting issue is a pre-production flaw.

The Camry V6 launched with a few complaints about the shift logic, and I'm sure the ES uses the exact same transmission. There have since been 2 TSiBs for the fix and Camry owners are quite happy now. I assume the ES should be good to go for production - maybe these were early prototypes that had not been reflashed for press drives (unfortunately).

These pre-production units that are driven during the press previews are not perfect, and it's possibly a flaw with these specific transmissions. However, it's also possible that the AI-shift software that learns driver preference is skewed by a couple weeks of auto journalists revving to the redline. This has been something I've noticed at past previews (the LS & LC specifically).

Then, as @Gecko says, perhaps this is something that will reach production and be resolved with a later mapping flash.

 

[Sakura]

Why wouldnt ES appeal to car enthusiasts?

And there are plenty of RWD cars with high performance, they dont need AWD, and with AWD you will lose a lot of that feel that makes RWD special. But hey, I guess they will be able to stomp the gas pedal to merge into the highway fast.

Why wouldn't the ES appeal to car enthusiasts?
You really think the ES screams car enthusiasts? The Lexus ES target demographic is a male of 50 years of age or older. The Lexus ES was specifically designed to be not a car enthusiasts car. It was never suppose to be one - that's why it never appeals to car enthusiasts.

The following is my personal opinion of why I wouldn't the Lexus ES as a car enthusiast:
1) FWD
2) Even if its AWD, its transverse layout FWD/AWD set up.
3) MacPherson Suspensions (cheap)
4) It doesn't handle well
5) Its not "nimble" - won't be fun on the edge or on the hills.
6) There will be torque-steer.
7) There will be horrible wheel-spin.
8) Its a Camry/Avalon re-skin. Its literally badge-engineering. Horrible to pay 50K for that.

Bonus one - this is just a pet peeve of mine: Its made in America next to the Camry/Avalon.

 

[Sakura]

Does the new M5 need AWD? No, but it has it. Has it lost the feel that makes RWD special? No, the previous RWD M5 already did not feel special.

Yes. The new M5 does need AWD. It produces too much power not to have it. If the M5 today was RWD only, it'll never be able to put down the power.

RWD feels special in the way it drives. RWD feels special in some cars because some cars are tail-happy.

You can never compare the modern new cars to the OG way of RWD, Front Engine and Manual.

 

[krew]

Someone made a good point that Lexus sells a ton of these FWD only. That said if they are going to move the ES over to the sportier spectrum there is going to be a desire for more than FWD. AWD is obviously mostly sold in the NE, PNW and Central area....the biggest sales areas are the South Florida and Southern Cali regions ....

I do believe the take rate on the AWD Acura TLX is around 15% as a comparison.

That's why I was saying the Lexus ES doesn't appeal to them. Its one of the reasons, I think, the Lexus ES won't get AWD. How much profit will Toyota really get from introducing a AWD Lexus ES? Enthusiasts will welcome it, like myself, but I would never buy one still.

One point missing here is that the ES is now a global vehicle, and there are multiple regions around the world where AWD is a very big deal (like up here in Canada and many countries in Europe). If the ES is to replace the GS effectively, it needs to have power to all four wheels both for performance and positioning.

The Lexus ES is made to cater to the masses - thus why I think the Lexus ES will stay relatively vanilla so Toyota can keep their cash-cow.

I don't want to hype up the ES F SPORT as this grand performance car, but it's serviceable when looking for an engaging drive -- I think most people on this site will be pleasantly surprised by its ability. And as the person that started Lexus Enthusiast, I would buy an ES F SPORT in a second.

 

[Levi]

3) MacPherson Suspensions (cheap)

And yet Porsche 718 and 911 get away with this.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

One point missing here is that the ES is now a global vehicle, and there are multiple regions around the world where AWD is a very big deal (like up here in Canada and many countries in Europe). If the ES is to replace the GS effectively, it needs to have power to all four wheels both for performance and positioning.

Right. Lexus dealers here in Maryland don't stock RWD cars for the most part, everything on the lot is FWD or AWD. And our winters are pretty mild usually compared to what you'd see in Boston or Toronto.

 

[Sakura]

One point missing here is that the ES is now a global vehicle, and there are multiple regions around the world where AWD is a very big deal (like up here in Canada and many countries in Europe). If the ES is to replace the GS effectively, it needs to have power to all four wheels both for performance and positioning.

I don't want to hype up the ES F SPORT as this grand performance car, but it's serviceable when looking for an engaging drive -- I think most people on this site will be pleasantly surprised by its ability. And as the person that started Lexus Enthusiast, I would buy an ES F SPORT in a second.

True. The Lexus GS is now a global vehicle. But I was more speaking in the context of the US-Market. The US-Market doesn't seem to demand the AWD system and statistics show the take-rate for AWD is low in America as well. I just question how Toyota will profit from introducing AWD ES to the US Market during a time of SUV craze and down-ward sedan trends. I feel like the Lexus ES AWD will get passed up by AWD SUVs in areas where AWD is needed.

In my opinion - the Lexus ES will never replace the GS. Not even with AWD.
Its true. The Lexus ES will be able to put down more power with the extra grip but I would hardly call it performance. If anything, a more powerful ES with a AWD will be a niche sell at best. Majority of core ES buyers won't even consider AWD or more power. Soyfan from Redline stated and I'm summarizing what hes saying here: majority of ES owners won't even floor it to a point where AWD is needed.

Toyota is a heavy business car company. They won't make something unless it draws net profit for share-holders. This is why I think if Toyota can get away without offering AWD, they would.

 

[Sakura]

And yet Porsche 718 and 911 get away with this.

True. The Porsche 718 and 911 offer MacPherson struts. I don't like it that it does either. However - the Porsche 718/911 is built differently. Its built so that the disadvantages of the MacPherson doesn't really affect it. We can't say the same about the Lexus ES - you still feel the disadvantages of the MacPherson.

Its how some people say "FWD doesn't stuck at handling because of the Civic Type R." Well - the Type R is built differently compared to other FWD cars.

In your example of the Porsche - we are comparing Apple to Oranges.

 

[mikeavelli]

True. The Porsche 718 and 911 offer MacPherson struts. I don't like it that it does either. However - the Porsche 718/911 is built differently. Its built so that the disadvantages of the MacPherson doesn't really affect it. We can't say the same about the Lexus ES - you still feel the disadvantages of the MacPherson.

Its how some people say "FWD doesn't stuck at handling because of the Civic Type R." Well - the Type R is built differently compared to other FWD cars.

In your example of the Porsche - we are comparing Apple to Oranges.

Porsche's could have twigs for a suspension and they likely would still be considered one of the best driving cars around lol.

 

[mediumhot]

Porsche's could have twigs for a suspension and they likely would still be considered one of the best driving cars around lol.

Run of the mill Porsches are way overrated. Are they cool cars to own? Yes. Are they cool cars to drive? Yes. Are they anything more special in driving experience than other small sports cars? Not really. To this day original Boxster remains the crappiest two seater I've ever driven.

I'm not sure why people expect the ES to be anything more than the ES it has always been. Sure all those GS replacements cancelation rumors have put the new ES in a tough spot, but it's still your grandpa's favorite land yacht.

 

[ssun30]

Porsche uses struts for better packaging. There's not enough weight in the front to justify a more complex layout. They still make expensive struts out of forged alloy so they are not cheaping out.
It's hard to define what car enthusiasts are. So it can be said that the M5 is not an enthusiast's car. Most of its buyers are similar to the regular luxury buyer, namely successful family in their 50s, but with more budget to spare and more risk taking personalities.

 

[Joaquin Ruhi]

Run of the mill Porsches are way overrated. Are they cool cars to own? Yes. Are they cool cars to drive? Yes. Are they anything more special in driving experience than other small sports cars? Not really. To this day original Boxster remains the crappiest two seater I've ever driven.

If I went by the gushing media articles alone, I'd say that opinion is nuts. By my brief, limited personal experience, I totally see your point and even tend to agree.

For the past 4 or 5 years, I've been a member of SAMA (Southern Automotive Media Association) and, as such, I've been one of the judges of their Topless in Miami event. This is, basically, a day-long drive-and-compare event of whatever convertible and sunroof vehicles the carmakers deign to bring down. In its 2017 iteration, the "High Performance" category consisted of the Porsche 718 Boxster S versus the Jaguar F-Type SVR. It was a no-contest blowout win by the Jaguar, which also got the overall "Convertible of the Year" title. I remember being totally disappointed and underwhelmed by the Boxster, especially its engine sound, which sounded way more like an old, rear-engined VW Beetle with an EMPI aftermarket exhaust (the 60s equivalent of today's Honda Civics with fart can/coffee can aftermarket exhausts) than anything worthy of its price tag. Hopefully, the older, flat-6 Boxsters are more worthy of the hoopla, but the flat-4 718 was a huge disappointment.

 

[Sakura]

I'm not sure why people expect from ES to be anything more than ES that has always been. Sure all those GS replacements cancelation rumors have put the new ES in a though spot but it's still your grandpa's favorite land yacht.

Definitely agreed! I'm not sure why people expect so much from the ES either. There is so much rumors floating around, especially on CL (secret CL forum reader here), that the ES will have AWD or a new more powerful turbo or V6 engine. It feels like quite a bit of people are predicting a ES F-Sport with AWD and Turbo/high-powered V6.

I feel like majority of this hope or expectation comes from the GS axing rumors. I have seen comments expecting an ES-F, which is insane - no one will probably buy that. (Enthuisasts will welcome it but ignore it. And core demographics wouldn't get near it) But its too hopeful and optimistic to think the ES will get all these upgrades in order to be a replacement for the GS/GS-F. Like you said - the ES will still be that typical land yacht that the older generations love. They need to make it that way to cater to their mass core demographics of buyers; if they didn't, sales would drop.

 

[krew]

Driving the All-New 2019 Lexus ES 350 & ES 300h

A change in the formula.

View the original article post

 

[reposado]

Great review. Can you talk about the new Lane Tracing Assist(LTA)? How it compares vs propilot, autopilot, etc?

 

[spwolf]

Like you said - the ES will still be that typical land yacht that the older generations love.

I dont get which review out of 500 posted, including one by @krew, made you think that ES is still a boat.

I have read and viewed at least 50 reviews, probably more, and I have yet to see a single one that says that ES handles like old generation, like a boat.

I don't want to hype up the ES F SPORT as this grand performance car, but it's serviceable when looking for an engaging drive -- I think most people on this site will be pleasantly surprised by its ability. And as the person that started Lexus Enthusiast, I would buy an ES F SPORT in a second.

......

 

[Ian Schmidt]

I don't think he meant "land yacht" in the handling sense, but rather in the "big and roomy and plush" sense. No ES ever made has handled as badly as the Detroit big iron that phrase was originally coined for.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

Great review. Can you talk about the new Lane Tracing Assist(LTA)? How it compares vs propilot, autopilot, etc?

Welcome to Lexus Enthusiast, reposado!

LTA isn't a full on self-driving system, it's comparable to Nissan's ProPilot where it will simply attempt to stay in one lane (including around curves and stuff, of course). If I understand correctly it's a bit more robust than the Nissan system in that it can follow a car ahead of you in cases where the road markings are unreadable or unclear but it's otherwise similar.

 

[RAL]

Welcome aboard! @reposado

 

[spwolf]

I don't think he meant "land yacht" in the handling sense, but rather in the "big and roomy and plush" sense. No ES ever made has handled as badly as the Detroit big iron that phrase was originally coined for.

If you read older ES review, it was certainly almost always called boaty... which new one is not.

Actually, I am pretty sure new ES, especially F-Sport will easily handle better than my 2009 IS... but hey, I am driving ethusiasts RWD while ES drivers are driving a boat