Reviews: The 2019 Lexus ES 350 & ES 300h

ssun30

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The hump, of course, is not purely aesthetics. The GA-K platform does support AWD. But Toyota is pretty much catching up in this department. Many FWD cars had humps for the exhaust pipes since the early 2000s. The Acura TSX had a hump and was never offered AWD.

Of course - it would be awesome. As car enthusiasts, we would love to see it. As a car enthusiasts, I would love to see an ES AWD with a Turbo engine. As a Toyota shareholder, an AWD Turbo ES would be bad business. An AWD will not generate enough return to create enough profits. It'll be a waste of development cash. A Turbo ES will damage the core image of the ES - will deter sales from mass consumers in favor of enthusiasts, which isn't the driving force of profits.

1) First point is false. The hump is much more pronounced than a regular exhaust hump. The height is what you'd expect from a RWD or AWD car. If they didn't prepare it for the axle then they are just wasting valuable leg room in the rear.

2) Nobody is saying they are making an AWD Turbo ES, just an AWD ES in general. 8% take rate is just a statistic without context. In what segment? In which area? On what type of vehicle? Which category of consumers buy AWD? Is there a year-to-year trend that suggests it is staying that way? I would like to hear about the details. There are areas in North America where AWD is a must. What you are saying is they should stop selling the ES sedan in these areas because there aren't any ES buyers or potential ES buyers there, which makes between 1% and 50% sense. Going by that logic, the IS and LS shouldn't be offered AWD either because they are selling at a much lower volume than the ES, and thus the absolute number of AWD sales is even lower, and as a result spending resources on AWD models is an even bigger waste.

I'm not fully denying your point here. Sometimes it's okay to abandon a certain demographics to achieve better overall results, sometimes it's not. But the thing is, we can't really tell on this issue without the data analysis capability of the accounting department of a mega corporation.

Oh also on the matter of turbo, they will replace the 3.5 V6 with a turbo at some point if only to reduce fuel consumption. It has nothing to do with the core image of the car, or trying to favor the enthusiasts for that matter (seriously, what kind of enthusiast would choose a turbo 4 vs. a naturally aspirated V6?). In fact replacing V6s with turbo 4s is all it took Toyota and Lexus to drastically increase sales in regions that favor turbo engines like China. Not having a turbo 4 on the ES is restricting how high they can reach in China; they are confined to the lower end of the premium segment with the 2.5 and 2.5 hybrid.

By the way they have already made the R&D investment in multiple AWD systems and integration of AWD with GA-K. I would call engineering a LC-F or LS-F a bigger waste of development cash because these two programs are almost guaranteed to lose money. If we take the argument even further, to optimize their business results, all the company really need to invest in are crossovers. The fact that even the most optimized automaker in the world does not run an seemingly optimized strategy means those earning six-figures are analyzing things with much more depth than we could.

To bring an end to this AWD discussion (seriously, it has been brought up way too many times in this forum that it needs to end), I would say let's just wait and see. The ES lineup is surely not complete at this point but honestly I don't care. The ES300h is really the sweet spot.
 
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spwolf

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Well, AWD is rumored to come... I was just pointing how all these people who want AWD on the internet, in the end very few will buy AWD version.

But with worldwide models, AWD is more important now for ES. Not just snowy areas of USA but also Japanese love their AWDs.

edit: I would also guess it might be interesting for Russia, one of the best Lexus markets in the world... but i dont expect crazy numbers there.
 
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krew

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Video Reviews: The 2019 Lexus ES 350 & ES 300h

18-06-11-lexus-es-f-sport.jpg


Three videos of varying length.
View the original article post
 
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Levi

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A RWD owner wouldn't substitute having RWD for AWD.

An AWD SUV will make more sense too because it has more clearance.

There is a difference between F4-T (FWD-based AWD) and F4-L (RWD-based AWD), where the buyer of the later won't substitute for the former. And no buyer complains about the new E AMG or new M5 being AWD only. It is likely, should there be a hypothetical GS-F with turbo V8, it will not sell because of the lack of AWD. If cars sell thanks to Marketing, RWD is so yesterday. Anyone not interested in AWD, will not care if it is FWD. Proof by case is the BMW X1, that never sold as well.

As for SUVs, unfortunately they do not have significantly more clearance.
 
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Krew just out of curiosity does Lexus ever make feedback driven changes between the time the media drives the vehicles and production? Im talking most about the downshifting delay on the 8 speed transmission which every single reviewer to date has pointed out as a major buzzkill. I understand no major transmission changes would probably be made but one or two reviewers said this could be corrected with a software update. Any thoughts?
 

ssun30

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Krew just out of curiosity does Lexus ever make feedback driven changes between the time the media drives the vehicles and production? Im talking most about the downshifting delay on the 8 speed transmission which every single reviewer to date has pointed out as a major buzzkill. I understand no major transmission changes would probably be made but one or two reviewers said this could be corrected with a software update. Any thoughts?

I can answer with confidence that this is a no, unless the downshifting issue is a pre-production flaw.
Transmission integration is actually very complicated because it affects the ride quality, fuel consumption, and emissions a lot. It will not be as simple as changing some code in the ECU. Will a quicker dowshift cause more jerky ride? Will the accelerated rev change impact the chemical composition of the exhaust? In the case of turbocharged engines, will it increase stress on the turbocharger? The drivetrain engineer will have to make sure these areas are not affected.
It's not changing the software that is time-consuming. It's the validation.

Or this could be a non-issue at all, since their transmissions are known to learn the driving style of the owner over time. Maybe the press just doesn't have enough time to have the transmission adapt to more aggressive driving.
 

mikeavelli

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Someone made a good point that Lexus sells a ton of these FWD only. That said if they are going to move the ES over to the sportier spectrum there is going to be a desire for more than FWD. AWD is obviously mostly sold in the NE, PNW and Central area....the biggest sales areas are the South Florida and Southern Cali regions ....

I do believe the take rate on the AWD Acura TLX is around 15% as a comparison.
 

Levi

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One reason why manuals can be better. Automatic (CVT) is better suited to hybrids and electrics.
 

Gecko

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Krew just out of curiosity does Lexus ever make feedback driven changes between the time the media drives the vehicles and production? Im talking most about the downshifting delay on the 8 speed transmission which every single reviewer to date has pointed out as a major buzzkill. I understand no major transmission changes would probably be made but one or two reviewers said this could be corrected with a software update. Any thoughts?

The Camry V6 launched with a few complaints about the shift logic, and I'm sure the ES uses the exact same transmission. There have since been 2 TSiBs for the fix and Camry owners are quite happy now. I assume the ES should be good to go for production - maybe these were early prototypes that had not been reflashed for press drives (unfortunately).
 

spwolf

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The Camry V6 launched with a few complaints about the shift logic, and I'm sure the ES uses the exact same transmission. There have since been 2 TSiBs for the fix and Camry owners are quite happy now. I assume the ES should be good to go for production - maybe these were early prototypes that had not been reflashed for press drives (unfortunately).

good to know, thanks for the info.
 

mikeavelli

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Lexus has really nailed the design here. The last generation I was a fan A pillar back intially and more so after the MMC. Nothing awkward about the front here.
 

Sakura

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1) First point is false. The hump is much more pronounced than a regular exhaust hump. The height is what you'd expect from a RWD or AWD car. If they didn't prepare it for the axle then they are just wasting valuable leg room in the rear.

Well - I haven't step inside the Lexus ES yet. But from pictures - the hump size is similar to those of the Acura 1G/2G TSX and 3G TL, which never offered AWD. My biggest point of all this is - a lot of people are using a "hump" as evidence for AWD when there are tons of cars with "humps" that never got it.

Secondly - all this talk about the future process of the ES is tiring. We are all speculating on a car that isn't even on sale yet. That's where I'll agree with you - lets wait and see. No one knows if the car is going to have AWD or Turbo.

Side note - I'm not saying the car isn't going to go Turbo. I'm saying it won't go Turbo in 1-3 years like some people here are alluding to. 1-2 years to switch out an engine is ridiculously bad business. At that time-point - they are better off just introducing it with a Turbo.

It has nothing to do with the core image of the car, or trying to favor the enthusiasts for that matter (seriously, what kind of enthusiast would choose a turbo 4 vs. a naturally aspirated V6?).

The Lexus ES has a core image. Its design to be a Lexus ES. I think we tend to forget the Lexus ES is designed as a non-enthusiasts type vehicle. The Lexus ES is sold insanely well because the core image of the car appeals to tons of people. There is a reason why Toyota is very careful with this 7G ES. Evidence of it is: the price and the design.

What kind of enthusiasts would choose a Inline 4 Turbo over N/A V6? Tons would. This is why the STi and EVO sells so well. This is why the Civic Type R sells over sticker and people demanded it in the USA. This is why the S12, S13, S14 and S15 are so popular.

To restrict being a car enthusiasts to V6 and above is merely false.

There is a difference between F4-T (FWD-based AWD) and F4-L (RWD-based AWD), where the buyer of the later won't substitute for the former. And no buyer complains about the new E AMG or new M5 being AWD only. It is likely, should there be a hypothetical GS-F with turbo V8, it will not sell because of the lack of AWD. If cars sell thanks to Marketing, RWD is so yesterday. Anyone not interested in AWD, will not care if it is FWD. Proof by case is the BMW X1, that never sold as well.

As for SUVs, unfortunately they do not have significantly more clearance.

RWD is not so yesterday. RWD is still the main drive-train of choice among purist car enthusiasts. If RWD is so yesterday, car enthusiasts would be flocking to FWD and AWD cars now. The difference with high performance cars with insane amount of torque, such as AMG and M cars, are that they need the AWD to put down the power. They will perform poorly if AWD isn't equipped. There is a reason why Teslas are all AWD as well. A RWD Tesla just shred its rear tires.

SUVs, on average, have more clearance. My comment was directed towards AWD ES. I was referencing - if a person needs AWD, they wouldn't buy it on an ES but rather on a SUV. You'll get more space and clearance.
 
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Sakura

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But car enthusiasts are the one percenters among car users.

Yeah. Car enthusiasts is a small percentage of people.

That's why I was saying the Lexus ES doesn't appeal to them. Its one of the reasons, I think, the Lexus ES won't get AWD. How much profit will Toyota really get from introducing a AWD Lexus ES? Enthusiasts will welcome it, like myself, but I would never buy one still.

The Lexus ES is made to cater to the masses - thus why I think the Lexus ES will stay relatively vanilla so Toyota can keep their cash-cow.
 

spwolf

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Yeah. Car enthusiasts is a small percentage of people.

That's why I was saying the Lexus ES doesn't appeal to them. Its one of the reasons, I think, the Lexus ES won't get AWD. How much profit will Toyota really get from introducing a AWD Lexus ES? Enthusiasts will welcome it, like myself, but I would never buy one still.

The Lexus ES is made to cater to the masses - thus why I think the Lexus ES will stay relatively vanilla so Toyota can keep their cash-cow.

Why wouldnt ES appeal to car enthusiasts?

And there are plenty of RWD cars with high performance, they dont need AWD, and with AWD you will lose a lot of that feel that makes RWD special. But hey, I guess they will be able to stomp the gas pedal to merge into the highway fast.
 

Levi

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Yeah. Car enthusiasts is a small percentage of people.

That's why I was saying the Lexus ES doesn't appeal to them. Its one of the reasons, I think, the Lexus ES won't get AWD. How much profit will Toyota really get from introducing a AWD Lexus ES? Enthusiasts will welcome it, like myself, but I would never buy one still.

The Lexus ES is made to cater to the masses - thus why I think the Lexus ES will stay relatively vanilla so Toyota can keep their cash-cow.

As car enthusiasts are a small percentage, not much is lost by not targeting them, however they can be very profitable in terms of margin.

As for AWD, I disagree, it is nothing for enthusiasts. It is on the contrary for the masses that it appeals. There have never been so many AWD cars, AWD is sold as a security measure and for driver's confidence.

And there are plenty of RWD cars with high performance, they dont need AWD, and with AWD you will lose a lot of that feel that makes RWD special. But hey, I guess they will be able to stomp the gas pedal to merge into the highway fast.

Does the new M5 need AWD? No, but it has it. Has it lost the feel that makes RWD special? No, the previous RWD M5 already did not feel special.
 

Ian Schmidt

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As for AWD, I disagree, it is nothing for enthusiasts. It is on the contrary for the masses that it appeals. There have never been so many AWD cars, AWD is sold as a security measure and for driver's confidence.

Audi's always marketed AWD as an enthusiast thing, and good AWD systems can improve handling.
 

Gecko

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50k a year is about 4,200 a month. That seems pretty conservative to me, as the current ES has sold above those numbers. Lexus must be predicting further decline in the sedan market.