suxeL

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We can just say it is for L vehicles, stop this stupid price nonsense

V8tt is being built for LC, LS, LF1 and LX.
Yes these cars are expensive already.

Pricing and Model tier can coexist, the same way I assume they will continue to offer a less expensive V6TT and Hybrid versions alongside a V8TT for the LC and LS.

Either way, I`m glad the at the very least if the rumors of cancellation are true, the powertrain RD didnt just get pushed aside as well.
 

spwolf

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Pricing and Model tier can coexist, the same way I assume they will continue to offer a less expensive V6TT and Hybrid versions alongside a V8TT for the LC and LS.

Either way, I`m glad the at the very least if the rumors of cancellation are true, the powertrain RD didnt just get pushed aside as well.

sure, but the point was that it is not Lexus's intention to sell V8tt on cars over 90k, but it will be offered on LS, LC, LX and and LF1, cars whose base price is over 85k as it is.
 

Gecko

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I just read an article on Road & Track about the development and demise of Cadillac's Blackwing V8, as well as the premium RWD Omega platform. There are certainly some differences between Cadillac and Lexus, but it's hard to read through this and not see some parallels between what is happening at Lexus and Cadillac's struggles.

I highly recommend taking a moment to read it: https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-ca.../what-happened-to-the-cadillac-blackwing-v-8/

My .02: The article illustrates that for brands who weren't already heavily invested in top-tier flagship platforms and powertrains, making that jump from platform engineered ones is very tough to do successfully because of extensive R&D expenditures and risk in an increasingly volatile automotive landscape. Similar to Akio Toyoda, Mary Barra has been quick to mention that the "new GM" focuses on products and segments where they are successful and profitable, and is quick to cut losses where they aren't. When you are running a business and responsible for margins and costs, that makes good sense. When you are an enthusiast hoping for XYZ, it can be hard to swallow.
 

Gecko

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MOD NOTE: I have merged the "Lexus Struggles with Product Timeline in North America" with this thread since the discussions were nearly identical and rather redundant between two threads.
 

Levi

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Read the article about Cadillac, killing this project killed the XT6 based on RWD Omega platform, prduction XT6 is FWD. Even RWD is not guaranty against German CUVs (see Infiniti QX70, watch Genesis GV70), but FWD, just for get it. Related to this I'll post in the LF-1 thread.
 

spwolf

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Similar to Akio Toyoda, Mary Barra has been quick to mention that the "new GM" focuses on products and segments where they are successful and profitable, and is quick to cut losses where they aren't. When you are running a business and responsible for margins and costs, that makes good sense. When you are an enthusiast hoping for XYZ, it can be hard to swallow.

Similar to Akio Toyoda? GM and Toyota have no similarities today.
Toyota quick to cut losses? Very doubtful. They been talking about their sports strategy and racing as how they do not have to make money on them.

GM has 3x less profits than Toyota, on same amount of car sales.
GM is not a worldwide car manufacturer anymore - they closed shop in Europe and Australia.

What did Toyota/Lexus do in Europe when faced with losses and poor sales? They doubled down on investment and became profitable. Certainly were not quick to cut losses and pull out of Europe... instead last year they had record market share in Europe.
 

ssun30

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It makes me wonder whether Cadillac's RWD strategy in China is really working. Close to 3k CT6 per month sounds quite impressive for a full-size luxury sedan but...they had to sell it at price lower than the ES not mention BBA's mid-size products. The CT5 has been a failure. The CT4 had a weak start due to Coronavirus but only two months after going on sale they already had to cut prices. Cadillac is in the same situation as JLR and Volvo where they had to offer ridiculous discounts to maintain volume otherwise they had to shut down plants. But then they are just shifting the losses to dealers. They had to cancel the quite good TTV6 AND PHV options and left the CT6 with just the 2.0T. I'm pretty sure the North American executives saw this and realized this is not a sustainable business because China is their last shot to keep their sedan lineup alive. Cadillac is also under a serious crisis with CAFE, since their completely turbo lineup will severely impact their rated fuel economy when China switches to WLTC next year.

Cadillac is a good example of how 'playing catch up to Germans' is a dead-end with zero hope of winning.
 
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Gecko

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Similar to Akio Toyoda? GM and Toyota have no similarities today.
Toyota quick to cut losses? Very doubtful. They been talking about their sports strategy and racing as how they do not have to make money on them.

GM has 3x less profits than Toyota, on same amount of car sales.
GM is not a worldwide car manufacturer anymore - they closed shop in Europe and Australia.

What did Toyota/Lexus do in Europe when faced with losses and poor sales? They doubled down on investment and became profitable. Certainly were not quick to cut losses and pull out of Europe... instead last year they had record market share in Europe.

Yes, similar to Akio Toyoda. Not sure how closely you follow GM, but Mary Barra has been the best leader the company has had in many decades as she has focused on cutting costs, cutting losses where they're taking them, doubling down on successful product and trying to build their core brand(s). This aligns almost exactly with what Akio has done at Toyota and mirrors what was shared in the recent shareholder video.

Perhaps someone else can pull it more readily, but there was a recent quote (within the last 2 years I think) from a Lexus executive stating that the brand was going to be pulling out of segments where they are less successful and focusing on the ones where they are. That seems to align well with things like the disappearance of the GS but offset with an expanded ES line. I also expect that it could mean fewer Lexus performance vehicles and possibly the termination or re-boot of the F brand, because what they have done so far has not worked. I also expect the IS will ultimately disappear, and likely the RC as well.

Anyway, my whole point here is that for brands who have mainstream sales as their core business - inexpensive, efficient, mass produced vehicles - it seems that the cost associated with chasing BMW, Mercedes and Audi is just too great and too far outside of what they know to really make a successful run at it. Toyota has invested heavily in FWD TNGA platforms with great chasses, hybrids, competitive AWD systems, flexibility to accommodate batteries and much more. That investment is very likely to be what is also core for Lexus going forward as well.

Last point: I also think many brands are learning that trying to go toe-to-toe with BBA is just not possible anymore. Look at how many brands have tried and failed:
  1. Acura
  2. Infiniti
  3. Lexus
  4. Cadillac
  5. Lincoln
  6. Volvo
  7. Jaguar
  8. I know I'm forgetting some
You know who hasn't? Tesla. You know why? Because they have blazed their own path and done it fundamentally differently. We see Lexus, Acura, Infiniti, Cadillac and Lincoln retreating to luxury cars based on their lesser, mainstream vehicles because the expense of developing dedicated premium products can't be justified.

I wish Lexus would fully embrace "hybrid" on everything and then also hydrogen, if it continues to be viable. Those are unique advantages they can exploit... FWD with GR V6 is not. I have stated here before that the future of being a Lexus enthusiast is wiping the slate clean of things like RWD, GS, LFA, F, etc. and taking Lexus for who they are NOW. Lexus has realized they cannot chase BMW, Mercedes and Audi anymore, so I think they aren't trying. The issue for Lexus enthusiasts is that they're still wanting and expecting them to. The future for Lexus is FWD "Toyota+" but there can still be a lot of value and appeal in that execution if done correctly.
 

Levi

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Yes, similar to Akio Toyoda. Not sure how closely you follow GM, but Mary Barra has been the best leader the company has had in many decades as she has focused on cutting costs, cutting losses where they're taking them, doubling down on successful product and trying to build their core brand(s). This aligns almost exactly with what Akio has done at Toyota and mirrors what was shared in the recent shareholder video.

Perhaps someone else can pull it more readily, but there was a recent quote (within the last 2 years I think) from a Lexus executive stating that the brand was going to be pulling out of segments where they are less successful and focusing on the ones where they are. That seems to align well with things like the disappearance of the GS but offset with an expanded ES line. I also expect that it could mean fewer Lexus performance vehicles and possibly the termination or re-boot of the F brand, because what they have done so far has not worked. I also expect the IS will ultimately disappear, and likely the RC as well.

Anyway, my whole point here is that for brands who have mainstream sales as their core business - inexpensive, efficient, mass produced vehicles - it seems that the cost associated with chasing BMW, Mercedes and Audi is just too great and too far outside of what they know to really make a successful run for it. Toyota has invested heavily in FWD TNGA platforms with great chasses, hybrids, competitive AWD systems, flexibility to accommodate batteries and much more. That investment is very likely to be what is also core for Lexus going forward as well.

Last point: I also think many brands are learning that trying to go toe-to-toe with BBA is just not possible anymore. Look at how many brands have tried and failed:
  1. Acura
  2. Infiniti
  3. Lexus
  4. Cadillac
  5. Lincoln
  6. Volvo
  7. Jaguar
  8. I know I'm forgetting some

Alfa Romeo, Maserati. In 5 years we'll know if Genesis succeeds. But to be fair, the Italians and Jaguar are still different, they are not new comers or premium versions of mainstream brands, but have their own long heritage. They rather have lost competivity over the years. The have not been fast enough to capitalize on the premium market when it started.
 

Ian Schmidt

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You know who hasn't? Tesla. You know why? Because they have blazed their own path and done it fundamentally differently. We see Lexus, Acura, Infiniti, Cadillac and Lincoln retreating to luxury cars based on their lesser, mainstream vehicles because the expense of developing dedicated premium products can't be justified.

Tesla also has pulled off the trick of selling cars that have luxury prices but no luxury. You can spec up a Camry or Accord to more luxury than a Model S, but the people buying them don't mind. I feel like part of that's a side effect from the CUV/SUV-ization of the market, where even very high-end luxury CUVs/SUVs typically don't have interiors as nice as a more traditional RWD luxury car like the LS or S-Class.

I wish Lexus would fully embrace "hybrid" on everything and then also hydrogen, if it continues to be viable. Those are unique advantages they can exploit... FWD with GR V6 is not. I have stated here before that the future of being a Lexus enthusiast is wiping the slate clean of things like RWD, GS, LFA, F, etc. and taking Lexus for who they are NOW. Lexus has realized they cannot chase BMW, Mercedes and Audi anymore, so I think they aren't trying. The issue for Lexus enthusiasts is that they're still wanting and expecting them to. The future for Lexus is FWD "Toyota+" but there can still be a lot of value and appeal in that execution if done correctly.

I don't think it's even going to be purely FWD, but certainly even BBA are moving that way.
 

Gecko

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I was just chatting with @mikeavelli about this and in following up on my post above, I wish Lexus had delivered one car for the 5LS instead of two: An LS 600 with a brand new, state of the art powertrain combining a new turbo V6 with hybrid system, good for 455hp and 510lb-ft of torque.

Thinking about who Lexus is and how they move forward, a car like that would have been a very bold statement that reaffirmed Lexus as the leader in luxury hybrids and it would have had enough power, smoothness and performance that nobody would have mentioned the word "V8." I think it's clear that technology wasn't ready 3 years ago and the LS couldn't wait any longer, but one can dream.
 

Levi

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In Europe, at least in France, Lexus has been an almost hybrid only brand, with the exception of F models (IS/GSF/RCF). The issue is the hybrid powertrains are only competitive against rather low power diesels, not other higher powered gasolines.
 

ssun30

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I've been writing a long post about understanding China's revised Double Credit system (released this Monday) and I expect to have it ready in two weeks. But here's a teaser: it seems ICE technology will take a sharp turn away from forced induction engines back to naturally aspirated in the near future (i.e. abandoning the all-turbo approach). To some extent the Chinese government is admitting forced induction fuel economy advantage is overblown and that they were mislead by German and American manufacturers in the early half of the 2010s. Car makers today develop mainstream engines mostly to cater to the Chinese market because of the massive volume and complicated regulations. Two years ago the government's position on this was vastly different, and I'm thinking Toyota has used a lot of political influence to lobby that change during this period. I won't be surprised if the displacement tax gets a revision in the future.
 

Gecko

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So no V8. But not really needed except for Land cruiser.

Is it though? 416hp/442lb-ft is a lot more stout than 381hp/401lb-ft, with a 10AT for flexibility.

Land Cruiser and LS 500 weigh about the same, and while I am not a fan of the V35A in the LS, I think it would be great for truck applications.
 

Will1991

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What US-made TNGA product is getting the 2.4 turbo? Aren't these using V6 already?

Canada will get/already has NX manufacturing, proximity will certainly help with logistics for 2NX.

Then maybe some V6 replacements for facelifts (Highlander, RAV4....) as GR engines are getting really old?
 

Levi

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Is it though? 416hp/442lb-ft is a lot more stout than 381hp/401lb-ft, with a 10AT for flexibility.

Land Cruiser and LS 500 weigh about the same, and while I am not a fan of the V35A in the LS, I think it would be great for truck applications.

The 1UR in the Landcruiser is tough and reliable, powerful and torquey for a NA V8 and its intended duty. TTV8 will make even more torque for the Landcruiser. Remember it is often used as an armored car, a V8 is a MUST.
 
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