Official Lexus Future Product & Powertrain Megathread

[amoschen7]

Because a man can dream that Toyota would design their own engines. If it's really a BMW engine and no manual option, I can't see myself getting one of the new Supras.

Are you saying the M30A is a boxer type? Wow. That’s a thrill! But what does the M actually mean?

 

[CIF]

One thing that plays in their favor is China cancelling road tax deduction for sub-1.6L engines and producing engines locally lets them completely bypass the displacement sales tax. The nation is moving towards a emission-based system so Japan will be the last place where displacement tax is a concern.
Still the GR replacement cannot be a V35A-FKS, because the GR series is designed for as high specific output as possible (80hp/L BoL and 90+hp/L EoL). Dynamic Force slightly sacrifices specific output for efficiency, so a V35A-FKS will be less powerful (~280hp) than the 2GR(301-318hp). Obviously nobody wants the IS/ES/RX to have even less power than right now.
Also this engine will find itself on a BoF truck, which could use way more torque low-down than what the naturally aspirated 3.5L offers.

That's definitely something that plays in their favor for sure.

Well this is all hypothetical at this point, and it may very well be a different variant of a V35A-FKS, not that exact variant. Or it could be a totally different V block engine. We shall see when Toyota finally unveils more of their TNGA engine lineup.

With this many unknowns, I don't feel it wise at all to be jumping into too much conjecture or speculation.

I don't know if this could be possible. But looking at the diagram with the powertrain models, it seems that there are only 3 engines that will have a V configuration. The rest being inline engines. Other than that, I believe the only engines above the V35A-FTS being the two purported V8's. I don't think we're having a 3.0L engine or a naturally aspirated version of the V35A-FTS. I think the 6 cylinder and the 8 cylinder cars are going all on out turbo.

This isn't bad. Since the 6 and 8 cylinder cars can really go take the competition to their competitors. The turbo/naturally aspirated 4 cylinders with hybrid motors in conjunction make sense. The global market and workhorse Toyota and smaller Lexus models would be having a share in this. I just don't think the naturally aspirated 6 cylinder and 8 cylinder cars will be able to push the envelope reliably, smoothly, sportively and still have that signature creaminess that these engines were known for.

In the case of the 6 cylinders, I highly doubt that they will be able to push further than the 340-350 horsepower barrier in a naturally aspirated form in the 3.5L unit. Same story for the 8 cylinder cars. I don't think they would be able to go higher than give or take 510 hp for the same reasons I mentioned above by simply staying at 5.7L/4.6L/5.0L. These things MUST go along with turbocharging. They will honestly be able to wipe their whole competition like this. Knowing Toyota, when an event like this occurs...... like the 90's or the mid 2000's. Going with what happened then, I seriously believe that competition will be crushed under Toyota/Lexus for a solid 5-6 years until other manufacturers are able to react.

I believe the diagrams are generic placeholders and not indicative of engine type or layout.

One thing you are missing is the a powerful diesel engine (V6 or V8). No way Toyota will sell any new Land Cruiser without diesel in the rest of the world, unless they have a Land Cruiser Hybrid.

A heavy-duty hybrid system for Toyota vehicles has been in development for quite a few years now. Who knows when (if ever) we will see it. Toyota's Hino division has had a heavy duty hybrid system available on their commercial trucks for quite a number of years now.

A new diesel engine is the least of their concern. I don't think TMC is going to develop a diesel engine from scratch, ever. They are investing an enormous amount of resources on engineering TNGA 1.0 and R&D on TNGA 2.0 and EV. Plus all these rumors about diesel bans. The chance of an entirely new diesel is infinitesimal.
Not updating its current diesel engines means better serviceability and part availability which is the prime concern in those regions that use diesel utility vehicles extensively. They do not need more power, there is plenty already. They want the engine to operate into eternity and nothing else.
Oh, and this lineup is for TMC's 'major' markets only, i.e. NA, Japan, EU, and China. They will keep a separate plan for the developing world.

What I am telling you is that it was the case - they had diesel options for Tundra, Tacoma/4Runner as well as passenger cars with running prototypes in North America. Just not sure if that whole program was scrapped when the VW scandal broke (+ major push for electrification) because I haven't heard anything about it in 8 months or so.

I assume that no diesels in EU makes sense, and if they're going that route, they may have pulled the program for diesels here as well.

I recently read that Toyota announced they will not be developing any brand-new diesel engines for passenger cars, and will be phasing them out in Europe.

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2...sel-cars-europe-phasing-vehicles-2018-onward/

Now the wording here is very important, as Toyota did not mention trucks or SUVs. So I would expect Toyota to continue offering diesel engines in certain markets for models like the Hilux, Prado, and Land Cruiser at least for the foreseeable future.

 

[TheNerdyPotato]

Are you saying the M30A is a boxer type? Wow. That’s a thrill! But what does the M actually mean?

M is the old designation for straight 6s before the JZ series. The MK3 Supra and Cressida came with 7M series engines, for example. IIRC, the 60s 2000GT also had an M engine.

The engine above the A25A could be a new Tacoma/Hilux 4cyl. It may receive an R or T designation.

 

[amoschen7]

M is the old designation for straight 6s before the JZ series. The MK3 Supra and Cressida came with 7M series engines, for example. IIRC, the 60s 2000GT also had an M engine.

The engine above the A25A could be a new Tacoma/Hilux 4cyl. It may receive an R or T designation.

I see... not so familiar with the Toyota legacy.
But I thought a boxer type will probably catch more eyeballs? I’m kinda skeptical about inline 6 because the 2GR replacement should also find its place in ES. A FWD inline 6 may be quite hard to engineer.

 

[TheNerdyPotato]

I see... not so familiar with the Toyota legacy.
But I thought a boxer type will probably catch more eyeballs? I’m kinda skeptical about inline 6 because the 2GR replacement should also find its place in ES. A FWD inline 6 may be quite hard to engineer.

Inline 6s are, with rare exception, made for FR platforms only. I never implied that it would be used in a FWD vehicle. I was actually referring to the new Supra, which would logically have an engine to succeed the nigh-legendary 2JZ. But, that's apparently not meant to be because it's a BMW.

 

[amoschen7]

Inline 6s are, with rare exception, made for FR platforms only. I never implied that it would be used in a FWD vehicle. I was actually referring to the new Supra, which would logically have an engine to succeed the nigh-legendary 2JZ. But, that's apparently not meant to be because it's a BMW.

Yea, I got you. I was expecting that powerful engine could get to more models in Lexus lineup,lol. Maybe I’m too greedy

 

[TheNerdyPotato]

http://toyotanews.pressroom.toyota....+toyota+corolla+hatchback+wows+2018+nyias.htm

Apparently I was wrong about the M designation. Toyota is using the M20A-FKS designation for the new 2.0l 4cyl in the 2019 Corolla. I assume that this is a different engine than the A20A in the UX

 

[ssun30]

http://toyotanews.pressroom.toyota....+toyota+corolla+hatchback+wows+2018+nyias.htm

Apparently I was wrong about the M designation. Toyota is using the M20A-FKS designation for the new 2.0l 4cyl in the 2019 Corolla. I assume that this is a different engine than the A20A in the UX

They are the same engine. In the UX press release the 2.0 was not given a code. 'A20A' was what we assumed.

 

[TheNerdyPotato]

They are the same engine. In the UX press release the 2.0 was not given a code. 'A20A' was what we assumed.

Ah, interesting. 168hp in a Corolla is an interesting prospect and a huge upgrade over the 132hp they've got now.

 

[Joaquin Ruhi]

Although earlier discussion in this thread wasn't too keen on the notion of one of the smaller Dynamic Force engines being a 3-cylinder (and I personally agree), that is, nevertheless, the plan, according to this Japan Automotive Daily article (bold emphasis mine):

Toyota Targets 2019 for Mass Production of New Three-Cylinder Engine
March 27, 2018

Toyota Motor Corp. is developing a three-cylinder, 1.5-liter engine with the aim of entering mass production in 2019. In a move that marks the automaker’s first development of a three-cylinder engine, Toyota is working on naturally aspirated, turbo and hybrid versions of the product, and plans to install it in a series of compact cars including the Vitz – also known as the Yaris – and the Aqua.

Compared to Toyota’s current four-cylinder, 1.5-liter engine, the product under development is intended to heighten fuel efficiency and reduce weight, and will make significant strides toward lowering prices. With the small car market seeing harsh competition around factors like vehicle cost and economical driving, Toyota hopes that the introduction of this new engine will boost the commercial appeal of its next-generation cars.

The new three-cylinder engine will form part of a next-generation family of engines. Toyota will give the family a shared framework focused on combustion, and from there will seek to offer a wide variety of engine types by combining different cylinder counts and per-cylinder displacement.

Production will be conducted in China, with Toyota estimating that unit production will sit at a scale of over 700,000 engines per year.

https://www.japanautomotivedaily.co...mass-production-of-new-three-cylinder-engine/

 

[spwolf]

Although earlier discussion in this thread wasn't too keen on the notion of one of the smaller Dynamic Force engines being a 3-cylinder (and I personally agree), that is, nevertheless, the plan, according to this Japan Automotive Daily article (bold emphasis mine):



https://www.japanautomotivedaily.co...mass-production-of-new-three-cylinder-engine/

NR series engines sell a lot more than 700k... so I wonder what will this actually replace? What markets? Yaris sells 220k in Europe alone, I bet this is targeting new Yaris thats coming out in 2019 as well as new small SUV that they are investing in French Yaris factory for. Also pretty sure that Toyota Poland manufacturing plant for engines announced expansion for 1.5l hybrid, we just did not know it was 3cly.

So quite possibly this would be 1.5l turbo and 1.5l hybrid, not 1.5l NA, if volume is to be 700k, and I guess it would be hybrid for Japan and Europe and turbo as upgrade engine for these markets (lower volume).

Or 700k number is just for 2019 or just for Asia/China/Japan or it makes no sense at all .

and excellent find @Joaquin Ruhi

 

[ssun30]

NR series engines sell a lot more than 700k... so I wonder what will this actually replace? What markets? Yaris sells 220k in Europe alone, I bet this is targeting new Yaris thats coming out in 2019 as well as new small SUV that they are investing in French Yaris factory for. Also pretty sure that Toyota Poland manufacturing plant for engines announced expansion for 1.5l hybrid, we just did not know it was 3cly.

So quite possibly this would be 1.5l turbo and 1.5l hybrid, not 1.5l NA, if volume is to be 700k, and I guess it would be hybrid for Japan and Europe and turbo as upgrade engine for these markets (lower volume).

Or 700k number is just for 2019 or just for Asia/China/Japan or it makes no sense at all .

Everything smaller than a Corolla could use this engine. With the M20A (ZR replacement) moving to the 120kW class, they need a new 100kW class engine, which the NR couldn't cover (8NR is 80kW class). We will probably see this engine slowly phasing out the 8NR.

Also, the next gen Prius will very likely get a turbo motor with variable compression ratio, so they might as well have the base engine ready before 2021.

Work on this 1.5L I3 turbo could be the reason the 1.4L '9NR' got cancelled.

 

[spwolf]

Everything smaller than a Corolla could use this engine. With the M20A (ZR replacement) moving to the 120kW class, they need a new 100kW class engine, which the NR couldn't cover (8NR is 80kW class). We will probably see this engine slowly phasing out the 8NR.

Also, the next gen Prius will very likely get a turbo motor with variable compression ratio, so they might as well have the base engine ready before 2021.

Work on this 1.5L I3 turbo could be the reason the 1.4L '9NR' got cancelled.

everything could, but if they estimate 700k production per year, then obviously it is going to select vehicles. They do have that 2NR-FKE Estec engine, not sure why would they need 1.4l next to it.

In any case, I assume this will go mostly into next gen Yaris Hybrid and then again a turbo version that would be optional for those vehicles.

 

[Tragic Bronson]

 

[ssun30]

everything could, but if they estimate 700k production per year, then obviously it is going to select vehicles. They do have that 2NR-FKE Estec engine, not sure why would they need 1.4l next to it.

In any case, I assume this will go mostly into next gen Yaris Hybrid and then again a turbo version that would be optional for those vehicles.

The 1.4 was a turbo motor, the most powerful variant in the NR family (100kW class) and was intended to replace the 1.8L 2ZR-FE.

Since the first production line will be in China, it's safe to assume the Yaris L (Vios hatchback)/Vios duo will receive the NA variant, while Corolla/Levin duo receive the turbo variant. The Corolla alone will eat 300k engines per year so again they will be capacity strained. In any case the 8NR will be kept before this Inline-3 could be produced on a multi-million-unit per year scale.

 

[Joaquin Ruhi]

Not as deeply detailed as the excellent discussion on this thread, but probably best posted here is this report on Toyota's new global powertrain chief Hirohisa Kishi by Automotive News' Asia Editor Hans Greimel:

Toyota powertrain boss feeling the pressure
His task: Keep internal combustion competitive in the age of electrics
April 21, 2018 - Hans Greimel

TOKYO — Toyota Motor Corp.'s new global powertrain chief has tackled some big challenges in his three decades of designing engines for the automaker.

Hirohisa Kishi not only executed the Toyota pickup's hulking V-8 powerplant, but he also led the troubleshooting of throttle control problems in the 2010 unintended acceleration recall crisis.

But those trials are not as daunting as what he now faces, Kishi says.

As the recently appointed president of Toyota's in-house Powertrain Co., Kishi must keep Toyota's internal combustion engines competitive in the dawning age of electric vehicles.

"Now the doors and possibilities are really opening up," Kishi told Automotive News. "In this changing era, our competitors are not just carmakers. They are coming from all directions."

Toyota's commitment to its trademark hybrid technology actually complicates the task. Toyota is rolling out a new generation of more fuel-efficient and powerful engines as part of a shift to what it calls its TNGA modular vehicle platform. TNGA, short for Toyota New Global Architecture, will yield cars and trucks that are lighter and simpler to build and modify.

But to contain cost, the TNGA engines must be designed for double duty. They must be fuel-efficient and inexpensive enough to pair with a costly hybrid system that clamps on an electric motor and pricey battery. But they also must be powerful and dynamic enough for a traditional vehicle.

Toyota's solution has been adopting a lean-burning, direct-injection Atkinson-cycle engine for the hybrid, and then tweaking that engine for its nonhybrid stablemate. It marks the first time Toyota has put an Atkinson engine in a vehicle that isn't a gasoline-electric one.

The technology leverages some clever tricks in air intake and achieves impressive thermal efficiency rates of as high as 41 percent. But even Kishi, who took over as powertrain boss in January, admits they are incremental advances.

Playing catch-up
By contrast, rivals in Toyota's own backyard are reaching for big breakthroughs. And they are churning out increasingly sophisticated, cleaner engines.

Nissan has developed a power plant that uses variable-compression ignition. And Mazda is banking on a complicated spark-controlled compression ignition system.

Meanwhile, Honda is making widespread use of downsized turbochargers.

Kishi said Toyota does research on such engine technologies. But he conceded Toyota is playing catch-up in the advanced combustion systems being pioneered by Mazda and Nissan.

"We are behind them from the perspective of introducing the technologies to the market," Kishi said. "And as an engineer, I feel bad and I respect our rivals."

Toyota is opting for internal combustion engines that can work with its hybrid system and still be affordable enough for widespread deployment.

"For a green powertrain, a high level of penetration and popularity is important," Kishi said. "We think that the current strategy of having a simple internal combustion system, and leveraging that in terms of high efficiency and performance, is the best approach."

The squeeze
Like other automakers, Toyota is getting squeezed by opposing trends.

Conventional powertrain costs are increasing as carmakers resort to more sophisticated technologies to meet more stringent emissions regulations. At the same time, EV costs are rapidly falling, thanks to better power density in batteries and bigger economies of scale.

Nissan, which aims to sell 1 million electrified vehicles by 2022, expects electric vehicles and conventional ones to achieve cost parity sometime in the mid-2020s.

Toyota is more conservative. Kishi believes EVs will still cost more, even in 2030.

Gasoline-electric hybrids, by contrast, have already reached parity with gasoline-only engines, when fuel economy is taken into account, he said. While it is technically feasible to make a gasoline engine that delivers the same fuel economy as a hybrid, it would cost more, he said.

"An internal combustion engine, with things added to equal the fuel economy performance, can actually be more costly than a hybrid," Kishi said. "Therefore, in terms of technology, it's possible to make happen. But we don't think it's appealing from the marketing perspective."

By 2023, new engines and transmissions will power 80 percent of new Toyota vehicles. The switch to TNGA powertrains will cut its overall fleet emissions 15 percent from 2015 levels.

There are other big savings.

The rollout will reduce the number of engine types by 40 percent, simplifying production and development and cutting costs. R&d costs, for example, are down 10 to 20 percent, Kishi said. And Toyota was able to slash capital expenditures 40 percent.

To be sure, Toyota isn't ignoring the rush to electric vehicles. In December, it said it plans to introduce more than 10 EVs worldwide by the early 2020s. But Kishi says the bridge technology will be more efficient engines. By 2030, Toyota expects 90 percent of its cars to still be equipped with a gasoline engine, the majority of those mated to a hybrid system.

The question is how to get the biggest gains at the lowest cost.

"We just have to stay the course of gasoline internal combustion technology, improving as we go along," Kishi said. "It's step by step. You have to cumulatively add to your building blocks."

http://www.autonews.com/article/201...a-kishi?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

 

[ssun30]

Yes, Nissan and Mazda are definitely ahead when each of them has grabbed one of the (two) holy grails of internal combustion i.e. variable compression and HCCI. Mazda is not at full HCCI yet as it needed to make some compromises to make it work, hence SkyActiv-X is SCCI for the time being.

However the more important question is whether these technologies can trickle down their product lineup cheaply. I highly doubt Nissan can get VC-T to work on its lower-end offerings in this generation. On the other hand Mazda did a good job controlling costs with SkyActiv-G; given their track record I would say SkyActiv-X is more promising than VC-T. That is assuming Mazda carefully resolved NOx emission problems so we don't get a Dieselgate 2.0 here.

Also, Nissan and Mazda have basically given up on six cylinders and above, it shouldn't be a surprise they are much maneuvrable in ICE technology front.

At this point it's still unknown which of these two directions (a combination of the two won't be expected until near 2030s) Dynamic Force II will go. Given they were already working on a turbocharged Prius since early 2010s, Variable Compression Turbocharging should be their next step. But don't expect Dynamic Force II to appear on other vehicles (non-Prius) too soon.

Remember Dynamic Force I with hybridization is instant 30%+ better MPG so they have a lot of room to work with, and we know hybrids is their strongest expertise. If they keep increasing the economy of scale their hybrid package will reach cost parity with gas-only variants in the near future (they already achieved that in China). In that sense, the ICE component needs to stay cheap; adding more expensive tech to it will reduce the available budget for hybrid components.

 

[mikeavelli]

Yes, Nissan and Mazda are definitely ahead when each of them has grabbed one of the (two) holy grails of internal combustion i.e. variable compression and HCCI. Mazda is not at full HCCI yet as it needed to make some compromises to make it work, hence SkyActiv-X is SCCI for the time being.

However the more important question is whether these technologies can trickle down their product lineup cheaply. I highly doubt Nissan can get VC-T to work on its lower-end offerings in this generation. On the other hand Mazda did a good job controlling costs with SkyActiv-G; given their track record I would say SkyActiv-X is more promising than VC-T. That is assuming Mazda carefully resolved NOx emission problems so we don't get a Dieselgate 2.0 here.

Also, Nissan and Mazda have basically given up on six cylinders and above, it shouldn't be a surprise they are much maneuvrable in ICE technology front.

At this point it's still unknown which of these two directions (a combination of the two won't be expected until near 2030s) Dynamic Force II will go. Given they were already working on a turbocharged Prius since early 2010s, Variable Compression Turbocharging should be their next step. But don't expect Dynamic Force II to appear on other vehicles (non-Prius) too soon.

Remember Dynamic Force I with hybridization is instant 30%+ better MPG so they have a lot of room to work with, and we know hybrids is their strongest expertise. If they keep increasing the economy of scale their hybrid package will reach cost parity with gas-only variants in the near future (they already achieved that in China). In that sense, the ICE component needs to stay cheap; adding more expensive tech to it will reduce the available budget for hybrid components.

While the Nissan's new engine is a marvel, the specs don't really wow anyone. Barely a bump over the VQ engine in regards to MPG and power is average. We also need to see how long term durability is.

 

[mediumhot]

Toyota really has nowhere to go but to bank all-in on conventional hybrid and try to achieve price parity with gasoline powered only vehicles. I don't see them coming out with a competitive EV anytime soon. I'm pretty much sure they are aware of FCVs being dead market by now but R&D in that department could serve them as a test bed for EV technology I guess. Will have to see what's the future when it comes to turbo fours and if DF is going to change any of that for better. And probably the most important and relevant question when it comes to hybrid tech what will they do about PHEV, that is the only logical step forward from their Hybrid Synergy.

I'm personally mostly interested in their RWD hybrid program and I'm curious if they will ever achieve price parity. It's so freakin complex and they keep on adding more stuff to it (like 4 speed auto) that I'm wondering if they have a long term plan for it at all. Their RWD hybrids might end up being PHEVs with ICE range extenders to justify the price spread between gasoline model and hybrid in RWD vehicles. I don't know I'm just guessing here but what I do know is that $10,000 difference between RWD car with the gasoline engine and exact same RWD car with exact same gasoline engine with mounted hybrid components will get them nowhere.

 

[Joaquin Ruhi]

Yes, Nissan and Mazda are definitely ahead when each of them has grabbed one of the (two) holy grails of internal combustion i.e. variable compression and HCCI. Mazda is not at full HCCI yet as it needed to make some compromises to make it work, hence SkyActiv-X is SCCI for the time being...

At this point it's still unknown which of these two directions (a combination of the two won't be expected until near 2030s)...

Ever since I started reading about Nissan's VC and Mazda's Skyactiv-X, I've been wondering whether the two could be combined, or if it was even worth doing so. Alas, the automotive press, to my knowledge, has remained silent on this subject. Yours is the first comment and guesstimate I've ever seen on the subject.