Official Lexus Future Product & Powertrain Megathread

[ssun30]

I don't know if this could be possible. But looking at the diagram with the powertrain models, it seems that there are only 3 engines that will have a V configuration. The rest being inline engines. Other than that, I believe the only engines above the V35A-FTS being the two purported V8's. I don't think we're having a 3.0L engine or a naturally aspirated version of the V35A-FTS. I think the 6 cylinder and the 8 cylinder cars are going all on out turbo.

Good call. The engine between the V35A-FTS and A25A-FKS looks like an inline engine (consistent with the smaller models). So A25A-FTS it is then.

Bad news: no mainstream V6 for the IS/ES/NX/RX.

Good news: the V6 ES F-Sport will be a damn powerful beast with V35A-FTS. 416hp+AWD=easily outruns GS-F on drag strips. Corners maybe not so much.

This is pretty much in line (no pun intended) with their strategy of charging premium for cylinders. Oh you want a smoother engine than the inline-4? How about 100 more horsepower and a torque vectoring AWD? And please take those fancy 20-inch wheels and a carbon fibre wing as well. Plus, you get all that V6 smoothness.

This is how everyone sell cars these days right?

Going with what happened then, I seriously believe that competition will be crushed under Toyota/Lexus for a solid 5-6 years until other manufacturers are able to react.

This sounds hilarious, but the possibility of Lexus restarting a horsepower war is non-zero. They are the ones who started it since the original GS400. The horsepower war is only getting worse with electrification. In China we get 542hp hybrid family SUVs starting from $40,000 before incentives. And of course everyone gets the bull/stallion-slaying Model S.

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

Good call. The engine between the V35A-FTS and A25A-FKS looks like an inline engine (consistent with the smaller models). So A25A-FTS it is then.

Bad news: no 3.0 V6TT for the ES/NX/RX.

Good news: the AWD ES/RX will be a damn powerful beast with V35A-FTS.

Yeah! I share the same views as you. But I knew deep down that the 3.0L would never happen (at least not this time). So now that we have most of the engines confirmed. Assuming we know that there will be a turbo V8, I assume it would look like this. I will be leaving some blanks for us to make speculations. Some of these are what I wish to happen, but I still have issues with their lineup. I will explain after.

UX:
UX200 - Brand new 2.0L 4-cylinder engine
UX250 - 2.5L NA?
UX250h - 2.5L hybrid

IS:
IS300 - 2.0L turbo
IS350/400 - 3.5L TTV6
IS F - 4.0L TTV8

RC:
RC300 - 2.0L turbo
RC350/400 - 3.5L TTV6
RC F - 4.0L TTV8

NX:
NX300 - 2.0L turbo
NX300h - 2.5L hybrid
NX350/400 - 3.5L TTV6

ES:
ES300 - 2.0L turbo
ES300h - 2.5L hybrid
ES350/400 - 3.5L TTV6

RX:
RX350h -3.5L TTV6 hybrid
RX350/400 - 3.5L TTV6
RX F - 4.0 L TTV8

GX:
GX500 - 3.5L TTV6
GX550 - 4.0L TTV8
GX F - 4.0L TTV8

GS:
GS300 - 2.0L turbo
GS350/400 - 3.5L TTV6
GS350h - 3.5L TTV6 hybrid
GS F - 4.0L TTV8

This is what I think will end up for the LC......

LC:
LC500 - 3.5L TTV6
LC550 - 4.0L TTV8
LC500h - 3.5L TTV6 hybrid
LC F - 4.0 L TTV8

LS:
LS500 - 3.5L TTV6
LS550 - 4.0L TTV8
LS500h - 3.5L TTV6 hybrid
LS F - 4.0L TTV8

LX:
LX500 - 3.5L TTV6
LX550 - 4.0L TTV8
LX F - 4.0L TTV8

LF-1:
??? 500 -3.5L TTV6
??? 550 -4.0L TTV8
??? h - 3.5L TTV6 hybrid
??? F - 4.0L TTV8

Phew! Now that's done, I still have one major issue that pops out to me.

Why isn't the NX on the IS platform? This confuses me to no end. It shows that the bottom lineup has no lineage. My problem with Lexus is that they need to have a linear lineup. A SUV, sedan and a coupe for each tier. I will exclude UX because UX is a special global model to push for fuel efficient vehicles. I was so tempted to put an F model on the NX but it simply won't work because it will ruin the balance of the car. My problem is that it isn't RWD.

I am not sure here but I strongly believe that Lexus needs to take notes from Mercedes-Benz's playbook. They have a SUV, sedan and a coupe for each tier. The NX and IS do not share anything with any other car and serve as independent models. There are a lack of choices the lower you go. Other than the LF-1, Lexus needs to build a RWD crossover based on the IS platform and there should be a *sigh* FWD sedan that is based on the NX. Therefore, it gives Lexus customers more offerings and it shows that Lexus cars have a great bandwidth of models. I know sedans are not popular right now. But where it sits at, towards the bottom of the lineup, it just confuses me.

It should go like this:

Unique crossover - UX (single model like I explained above)
Subcompact - NX/sedan based on NX
Compact: IS/crossover based on IS/RC
Midsize: RX/ES
Higher midsize: GS/GX
Flagship: LX/LC/LS/LF-1

I believe markets like the GLC, Macan, X3 are dominating the market and there needs to be an entry from Lexus. As for subcompact sedans, the A-Class/CLA-Class/A3/2-Series are playing a huge role in the market. There needs to be another entry here.

Just my two cents. I am really proud on how Lexus is moving, but these two omissions always gets me.

 

[spwolf]

I'm leaning towards A for inline engine and V for V-engine. Type of aspiration is encoded in the suffix F'T'S.

I completely missed that part. The KR and NR updates are indeed somewhat new. But this could also mean their Dynamic Force update could come very late (2020-2021).
A senior engineer at TMEC said that they were not very happy with the 8NR-FTS design since it does not deliver the power density and fuel efficiency desired. It was just an interim solution for turbo-loving markets like EU and China. The problem is its very small displacement, or rather displacement per cylinder. 300cc is very little space to work with so they couldn't extract a lot of efficiency out of it. The general rule is you want as high displacement per cylinder as possible until you start losing reliability due to stroke length and vibrations. Each engine layout has a different 'sweet spot'. For I4 this is between 350 and 600 cc/cylinder. I3 rules in the sub-1.5L segment. At 330-430 cc/cylinder (1.0-1.3L), the efficiency is unbeatable by I4 but at 1.5L (the 500cc/cylinder 'magic number'), containing vibration becomes more challenging and some engineers may choose I4 for better NVH and scalability.
So I think TMC wants to try following the winning recipe and replace the 8NR-FTS with a 1.2 or 1.3T Inline-3. GM is using its new 1.3T unit to replace a lot of I4 (turbocharged included) engines.


The Aqua/Yaris Hybrid already makes 75kW, so 90kW is not a significant bump considering the drivetrain could also be used on slightly bigger vehicles like Auris and Corolla.

- I dont think KR and NR will get "Dynamic Force" engines anytime soon... not with them updating it this spring (KR) and all new 1.5l ESTEC NR last year.
- As to the 4cly vs 3cly, unfortunately those were designed to satisfy old NEDC emissions/fuel consumption... in real tests by European mags, those 3cly turbos have poor efficiency. For instance Autobild tested BMW's new turbo 3cly and they got worse efficiency than their old engines.
- 8NR-FTS is also very new engine... maybe update with new transmissions and in new platforms will add 7-8% better efficiency as well as some internal changes or turbo changes. I read from owners posts that they are pretty happy with 1.2t's fuel consumption in C-HRs, numbers are pretty low and much better than what people used to get with small 1.8l Rav4's.
- So what are those two smaller engines? I have no idea. Maybe new small turbo for Auris? Since they did not put 1.0 KR update there or new 1.5l NR I have no idea. Are they going to do 1.5l turbo for Europe for C-HR? Kind of makes no sense if they claim 2.0l has better efficiency and power curve.

As to the hybrid, why would it get a power bump? This is their mass produced powertrain sold in their best selling vehicles. It has to be cost effective if it is to compete with 1.5l engine, price differential cant be too big. They need more power from lower point of the range, they need more battery output and much better nvh... of course they also need more efficiency. But cost is primary factory, just like with Prius 1.8l engine.

 

[spwolf]

If we look at this chart again we are missing
- 2 smaller engines under 2.0l... we have no clue what they are. It seems they want to introduce new 2.0l as replacement for old 1.8l ZR engine that was probably their most sold engine in the world. They also just recently introduced updated 1.0l and 1.5l engines.
- Engine bwteen 2.5l and 2.0l? This has to be a turbo engine, maybe 1.5l turbo? But then why would UX get 2.0l in some markets? Maybe less expensive than 1.5l turbo while 2.5l might be overall superior? So who would get 1.5l turbo? Markets with fuel efficiency taxes, upgraded powertrain for small cars?
- 3.5l GR replacement it seems - between 2.5l and 3.5ltt. Will it have a turbo? If it has a turbo it might be a 3.0l. If not, it will be all new 3.5l NA engine. Why NA? Because it has to be cost effective. This will be a base engine for many Lexus vehicles. They cant have a very expensive twin turbo engine as base and most of Lexus buyers do not want 4cly turbo engine as we know by now.
- Larger than 3.5tt is obviously V8 engines for new Tundra and for new LC-F.
- Larger than 300h hybrid engine? Might it be based on 2.0t? I am not sure what can be less than latest 3.5l "500h" but more than 300h if it is not a 2.0l with turbo.

 

[Levi]

One thing you are missing is the a powerful diesel engine (V6 or V8). No way Toyota will sell any new Land Cruiser without diesel in the rest of the world, unless they have a Land Cruiser Hybrid.

This sounds hilarious, but the possibility of Lexus restarting a horsepower war is non-zero. They are the ones who started it since the original GS400. The horsepower war is only getting worse with electrification. In China we get 542hp hybrid family SUVs starting from $40,000 before incentives. And of course everyone gets the bull/stallion-slaying Model S.

Yes, Volvo with T8 version, +400 Ps and BYD Tang PHEV with 505PS, 0-100km/h in 4.5 sec, among the many Chinese cars.

 

[ssun30]

- As to the 4cly vs 3cly, unfortunately those were designed to satisfy old NEDC emissions/fuel consumption... in real tests by European mags, those 3cly turbos have poor efficiency. For instance Autobild tested BMW's new turbo 3cly and they got worse efficiency than their old engines.
- 8NR-FTS is also very new engine... maybe update with new transmissions and in new platforms will add 7-8% better efficiency as well as some internal changes or turbo changes. I read from owners posts that they are pretty happy with 1.2t's fuel consumption in C-HRs, numbers are pretty low and much better than what people used to get with small 1.8l Rav4's.

The 4 vs. 3 cylinder comparison was mirroring a TMEC engineer's comment. MPG does not equate efficiency nor is it the other way around. But in their internal evaluation, they determined a 3 cylinder would better suit the sub-1.5L segment. The Dynamic Force concept would be hard to apply (or not optimally) to only 300 cc/cylinder. How BMW B38 equipped Minis failed to match the MPG of the Prince 1.6 is a mystery, but it could be a very complicated matter.
I didn't say users are unhappy with the 1.2T; they are more annoyed by the two gearboxes it comes with. It was the engineer themselves who weren't too impressed by the 8NR-FTS. They hoped to work on a 1.4T unit because 350cc/cylinder is easier to optimize. That project got shelved for unknown reasons.

As to the hybrid, why would it get a power bump?

For use on a bigger vehicle, like Asia-spec Corolla/Vios.

One thing you are missing is the a powerful diesel engine (V6 or V8). No way Toyota will sell any new Land Cruiser without diesel in the rest of the world, unless they have a Land Cruiser Hybrid.

A new diesel engine is the least of their concern. I don't think TMC is going to develop a diesel engine from scratch, ever. They are investing an enormous amount of resources on engineering TNGA 1.0 and R&D on TNGA 2.0 and EV. Plus all these rumors about diesel bans. The chance of an entirely new diesel is infinitesimal.
Not updating its current diesel engines means better serviceability and part availability which is the prime concern in those regions that use diesel utility vehicles extensively. They do not need more power, there is plenty already. They want the engine to operate into eternity and nothing else.
Oh, and this lineup is for TMC's 'major' markets only, i.e. NA, Japan, EU, and China. They will keep a separate plan for the developing world.

 

[spwolf]

The 4 vs. 3 cylinder comparison was mirroring a TMEC engineer's comment. MPG does not equate efficiency nor is it the other way around. But in their internal evaluation, they determined a 3 cylinder would better suit the sub-1.5L segment. The Dynamic Force concept would be hard to apply (or not optimally) to only 300 cc/cylinder. How BMW B38 equipped Minis failed to match the MPG of the Prince 1.6 is a mystery, but it could be a very complicated matter.
I didn't say users are unhappy with the 1.2T; they are more annoyed by the two gearboxes it comes with. It was the engineer themselves who weren't too impressed by the 8NR-FTS. They hoped to work on a 1.4T unit because 350cc/cylinder is easier to optimize. That project got shelved for unknown reasons.


For use on a bigger vehicle, like Asia-spec Corolla/Vios.

Asia spec Vios gets old 1.5l which even older hybrid will be better than performance wise... dont expect major spec bump, just overall better package, exactly like 1.8l and 2.5l hybrid upgrades. In fact, expect one simpler hybrid powertrain that might go into those cheaper vehicles, not more complicated one... price is a big factor in that segment.

As to the 3cly vs 4cly, I think TMC made a choice already with both 1.2t and 1.5l Estec engine.

It is not just BMW, across the industry 3cly turbos are not proving as good efficiency wise. Maybe they have to be on boost too much since without it they are too anemic? So turbo is always working? FCA's 2cly turbo is even worse.

 

[spwolf]

One thing you are missing is the a powerful diesel engine (V6 or V8). No way Toyota will sell any new Land Cruiser without diesel in the rest of the world, unless they have a Land Cruiser Hybrid.

This chart was for last 18 months, ending with 2018 year if I remember correctly... so it is until indefinite period, it is for engines and tech revealed until end of 2018.

So diesels for Land Cruiser 200 are not going to be there. Even though they sell it only in few countries in the world, I wonder if there will be big diesel for Land Cruiser 200 coming ever, they might just get a BMW diesel for it since markets where LC 200 sells is not markets where diesel is big.

 

[Gecko]

Believe it or not, from what I heard last year, Toyota has a very rich diesel powertrain lineup in the works with a multi-model strategy. However, not sure if that was canned with the VW scandal.

 

[spwolf]

Believe it or not, from what I heard last year, Toyota has a very rich diesel powertrain lineup in the works with a multi-model strategy. However, not sure if that was canned with the VW scandal.

Not so sure if that was ever the case really. They did introduce their 4cly truck diesels, which sell excellently in many countries around the world. But they dont have volume for V6 or V8 diesels, not without Lexus in EU, which wont be getting them anyway.

EU rules on emissions that are coming were always strict, and I am not sure that Toyota was ever ready to cheat like VW and now MB already did.

Now between Isuzu, Suzuki, Mazda and Toyota brands (all partially owned by Toyota these days), they really could have done something to integrate future diesel developments, but I think that just changed into future hybrid/plugin/EV strategy.

 

[spwolf]

I think the program was canned when Toyoda decided that it did not make sense and they turned into getting BMW diesels for Europe. Prior to that, there were rumors that Isuzu had a range of small diesels for Toyota, which would make sense since they already developed small diesels for GM prior to that.

But it seems that canning it was a really good choice back then, since these days a lot of Toyota distributors in EU are going diesel free with exception on big trucks... so new Auris will likely not have a diesel at all.

 

[Gecko]

Not so sure if that was ever the case really.

What I am telling you is that it was the case - they had diesel options for Tundra, Tacoma/4Runner as well as passenger cars with running prototypes in North America. Just not sure if that whole program was scrapped when the VW scandal broke (+ major push for electrification) because I haven't heard anything about it in 8 months or so.

I assume that no diesels in EU makes sense, and if they're going that route, they may have pulled the program for diesels here as well.

 

[spwolf]

What I am telling you is that it was the case - they had diesel options for Tundra, Tacoma/4Runner as well as passenger cars with running prototypes in North America. Just not sure if that whole program was scrapped when the VW scandal broke (+ major push for electrification) because I haven't heard anything about it in 8 months or so.

I assume that no diesels in EU makes sense, and if they're going that route, they may have pulled the program for diesels here as well.

Yes, but keep in mind that their sales of diesels in Europe at one point were likely close or more than 400,000 per year! So their main development for diesel would be EU (Russia and Middle-East barely sells any diesels, this is what they call EMEA region and how Toyota works - Europe, Russia and Middle East), and if they scrapped it in EU in 2010 or so, when they decided to go full hybrid and BMW diesels for some small diesel sales, then it likely scrapped the program for passenger diesels in USA too?

But maybe the case was that they would do their new 4cly truck diesels in Tacoma, which certainly made sense, since it is world engine, designed to pass all emissions everywhere (and will pass most stringent EU emissions that are coming in 2020) and that they simply decided to not do it due to VW fallout? These engines were introduced in 2016 so they are not on the chart, but are definitely considered as next-gen by Toyota. For Tundra, they could have turned to Isuzu, since Isuzu has a long history of doing GM truck diesels.

 

[Levi]

In Russia Land Cruiser and LX sell in Diesel mostly, and TMC sells a lot of them.

 

[spwolf]

In Russia Land Cruiser and LX sell in Diesel mostly, and TMC sells a lot of them.

I was not aware that LC and LX sold that well in diesel from in Russia, since diesel and hybrid sales there are usually not big... Found this article where #1 and #2 diesel sellers in RU are Prado and 200 . In Western Europe it is like Golf and Focus, or something like that.

https://eng.autostat.ru/news/view/13562/

Keep in mind thats still only 13k vehicles per year. Small number to produce brand new engine for.

 

[krew]

Tech Talk: Toyota Develops New Continuously Variable Transmission for 2.0L Engines

World's first use of a launch gear in passenger vehicle CVT.

View the original article post

 

[TheNerdyPotato]

,


What is the difference between the engine code starting with an "A" or a "V"? It seems to me that naturally aspirated engines start with A and turbocharged ones start with V, but we haven't seen enough models to know for sure. What do you think?

Sorry, I'm a little late to the party, but I just found this thread through Google. I believe that I understand the lettering.

A = Inline 4 cylinder engines. This coincides with many other 4cyls that Toyota has used in the past, including the 4A-GE, 2AZ-FE, 8AR-FTS, etc...

V = V6 engines. This would reference the old VZ series of engines found in many Toyota/Lexus models from the 1980s until the early-mid 2000s, including the 5VZ-FE 3.4l found in the first-generation Tundra.

If I had to place a wager, they'll use the letter U to represent V8 engines, similar to the 1UZ-FE and 2UR-GSE. For example, if they produce a 4.0l V8TT, it will likely have a designation of U40A-FTS/GTS, depending on the cylinder head flow characteristics.

If you've followed me this far, then you may be able to figure out why the entire automotive enthusiast community would be excited by an engine with a M30A-GTS designation

 

[RAL]

Welcome new member TheNerdyPotato

 

[ssun30]

If you've followed me this far, then you may be able to figure out why the entire automotive enthusiast community would be excited by an engine with a M30A-GTS designation

Good call on the A designation for inline-4s.

But why would they give the BMW B58 a Dynamic Force name? From the A90 designation on the Supra I'm more leaning towards 3JZ for the engine. They did the same on the 86 with the 4U, a series that wasn't used for half a century.

Welcome to the forum!

 

[TheNerdyPotato]

Because a man can dream that Toyota would design their own engines. If it's really a BMW engine and no manual option, I can't see myself getting one of the new Supras.