p.s. V6 will be only in North America. So I think they should offer something stronger, and I am sure some kind of stronger engine is coming. Hybrid is only crucial in Western Europe where it will be 90% of the sale.... then Japan it will be like 50% of sales... rest of the market could be NA and China where it gets 15%-25%.
Official 7th Generation ES Thread: Full Reveal on 4/25 in Beijing
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mikeavelli
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That is just INCREDIBLE!
I feel it’s more likely that they put the 2.5 NA as the most desired model. It is already proved in the market that 2.5NA Camry is more popular than 2.0NA in China. If 2.5 NA is there for sure, a 2.0T model could be in an embarrassing position compared with 2.5T
if 2.5t exists, sure... why would it be embarrassing though?
They will certainly have 2.0l, 2.5l and 300h models, as before.
The ES200 is the biggest seller because it is the cheapest Lexus badge money can buy, but it is not a good profit driver (in fact it is very low margin and not liked by dealers). The ES200 is not targeted towards the "luxury car buyer" to be fair. The point of more powerful models is not power itself but a justification to charge more. More luxurious packages are still reserved for higher tier trims.
The chinese market has a weird obsession for "2.0T" because of VW's very aggressive and misleading market campaign about its 2.0TFSI engines. People believe "2.0T" is some magic potion that turns their car into both powerful and fuel-sipping machines. Dropping a 2.0T engine into the Crown alone was enough to double the sales for that dying model in 2017, and now FAW has some second thoughts about discontinuing the Crown.
On the other hand, the new 300h could work much better than a 200t. The FAW Crown didn't have a hybrid so the analogy couldn't really be applied here.
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One thing I hope Lexus will soon understand is the media impact of an "all-in" comprehensive model debut that all takes place at once. Historically, we get the debut of a "core" model, then at a later auto show we get the hybrid, and then after that, the F-Sport. If we're lucky, at some point down the line we get the F model. It ends up taking 6 months to fully reveal the same car through teaser shots and then when the various trims roll out onto the show table, it's 90% the same car we've seen already and nobody really cares anymore. The moment has passed.
I understand that by doing this, Lexus is trying to maintain momentum over an extended period, but this is the wrong approach considering how the media reacts to these sorts of staggered reveals. Why? The most significant press coverage will take place at the initial reveal - thats when media, industry folks and enthusiasts go "all-in" and form their first impressions, write the most coverage and take the most photos. Whatever happens after that is an afterthought, even if it's a staggered reveal of something like F-Sport variant that enthusiasts would like.
Showing all powertrain options (gas, hybrid, BEV) and all trim options (base, luxury, F-Sport) and all drivetrain options (AWD, RWD, FWD) all at once creates a sense for media that Lexus is debuting a fully fleshed out model line. Quite simply, it is much more impressive. The one I agree with is the later debut of the F model. Mercedes does a great job of showing many models and trims at their reveals which gives the impression that this is a strong, robust model line with "something for everyone."
With all of that said, I am expecting that tomorrow's headlines will read something to the effect of "Front wheel drive, four cylinder Lexus ES debuts in Beijing." That's oversimplified, but you get what I mean. If we somehow get the debut of hybrid engine, 4cylinder engines, V6, F Sport, AWD and luxury model all at once, the press coverage for this car will end up being something like, "Lexus elevates the ES to take on Mercedes, Audi and BMW." Much stronger, much more positive, much more impressive for media, industry and consumers alike.
Lexus has been very bad about this for a very long time, but perhaps with so many new products coming out this year, they won't have time to stretch out full reveals because they'll need the spotlight for other individual models. They did well with UX, so maybe they'll surprise me tomorrow.
I understand that by doing this, Lexus is trying to maintain momentum over an extended period, but this is the wrong approach considering how the media reacts to these sorts of staggered reveals. Why? The most significant press coverage will take place at the initial reveal - thats when media, industry folks and enthusiasts go "all-in" and form their first impressions, write the most coverage and take the most photos. Whatever happens after that is an afterthought, even if it's a staggered reveal of something like F-Sport variant that enthusiasts would like.
Showing all powertrain options (gas, hybrid, BEV) and all trim options (base, luxury, F-Sport) and all drivetrain options (AWD, RWD, FWD) all at once creates a sense for media that Lexus is debuting a fully fleshed out model line. Quite simply, it is much more impressive. The one I agree with is the later debut of the F model. Mercedes does a great job of showing many models and trims at their reveals which gives the impression that this is a strong, robust model line with "something for everyone."
With all of that said, I am expecting that tomorrow's headlines will read something to the effect of "Front wheel drive, four cylinder Lexus ES debuts in Beijing." That's oversimplified, but you get what I mean. If we somehow get the debut of hybrid engine, 4cylinder engines, V6, F Sport, AWD and luxury model all at once, the press coverage for this car will end up being something like, "Lexus elevates the ES to take on Mercedes, Audi and BMW." Much stronger, much more positive, much more impressive for media, industry and consumers alike.
Lexus has been very bad about this for a very long time, but perhaps with so many new products coming out this year, they won't have time to stretch out full reveals because they'll need the spotlight for other individual models. They did well with UX, so maybe they'll surprise me tomorrow.
Because the 250 and 300h will already be very competitive in the ¥350-500k where most of the profit lies. They don't have to do a 2.0T because it wouldn't add anything new. BBA only have their intro-level models in this segment (E200L/520Li/A6L 40TFSI).
On the other hand, a 2.5T will compete in a completely different segment (¥500k+) against V6s with 4-seater executive trims. I do hope a 4-seater ES is on their radar.
In either case, they don't have to do a 2.0T if it needs to be a standalone thing.
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Everyone in the industry introduce their full line-up in a gradual manner. It's not like Mercedes launch AMGs on Day 1. It's simply because they couldn't have everything ready at the same time and having the product out is much higher priority. It's not like they can do paper launch like Tesla does, it's just not a very "auto industry way" of doing things.
The ES could need a better approach, since it is effectively a reboot of their mid-size sedan strategy. I do agree they need to show more commitment to GS replacement. Then again, preparing an all-in launch just means further slips. Right now they cannot really afford to delay any product.
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Short of high performance models (AMG, M, RS), everyone does this much better than Lexus by showing critical mass all at once. Gas, hybrid, electric, sports, luxury, exec trims, at one launch with hi-po models and smaller package info coming closer to launch or after the fact.
Here is one such example, from Beijing no less:
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With less than 12 hours to go let's hold off on speculations for now. IIRC the press event is at 9AM (GMT+8) tomorrow but couldn't find the source.
I will be in Beijing on the 29th and the ES will be the first for me to check out. Hope they also debut the UX there as well.
I will be in Beijing on the 29th and the ES will be the first for me to check out. Hope they also debut the UX there as well.
Gecko
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This is a dumb question, but what time is the local reveal? I can't find it and want to know when and where to tune in!
internalaudit
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Besides lower pricing, ride comfort and interior space and now newer technology, why do people opt for the ES over the IS?
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This question feels like a trick.
internalaudit
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No, I'm weird but if both had AWD, I would cross shop the two vehicles since they're the cheapest Lexus offerings.
mikeavelli
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Apples to Oranges in their current form. Their size is nothing similar, they drive nothing similar and interior options are different as well.
If the ES is replacing the GS, that means its price will go up and I fully expect more luxury and features.
The fact of the matter is in a dying sedan world, Lexus has 3 Sedans where most have two (lets not forget the HS was here just a few years ago, Lexus had 4 sedans that could be had in the 40k range).
internalaudit
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So RWD vs FWD biased makes a world of difference even on a full-time AWD system? All I care about is all time AWD and the equivalent of Toyota Safety Sense.
It's almost like Toyota North America is not bringing in AWD just so people have to move up to Lexus.
mikeavelli
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It seems with the new systems they don't make much of a difference and in the new M5/E63 S you can actually disengage AWD completely (you still have the weight penalty). I doubt most AWD ES owners would care, maybe a few GS owners though.
We will see shortly if AWD is confirmed on the new ES.
Gecko
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With a full-time AWD system that actively splits power front and rear... FWD or RWD bias wouldn't make much difference. However, in systems like DTC AWD or the newer Dynamic Torque Vectoring AWD, they are FWD systems that require a loss of traction or wheel slippage before engaging. In execution, this means the car drives and feels like FWD because it is... until the rear wheels are engaged. That makes a big difference.
internalaudit
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Looks like even the DTC AWD is good enough if the ECU can really detect acceleration and be quick to transfer power to the rear wheels. Of course, with slippage and cornering, there will be maybe milliseconds of delay. Going to have to read on the Dynamic Torque Vectoring AWD but it should even be good enough if I value reliability/TOC > sharp handling but so far TNGA and the Lexus equivalent seem to have improved driving dynamics if only for the lower CG and more structural rigidity.
I don't think any Lexus vehicle besides those with 4WD have full-time AWD.
I don't think any Lexus vehicle besides those with 4WD have full-time AWD.
Gecko
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What is your goal - traction for bad weather or more grip for performance driving?
DTC AWD and DTV AWD will both be great for bad weather. Years ago when we had "snowmageddon" here in Atlanta and all of our roadways froze with ice and slush, my Rav4 AWD was one of the only vehicles that could get anywhere and it was unstoppable - up icey hills, black ice, slush, snow... I was shocked and one of very few people who was able to make it home that night. DTV AWD will only improve upon this performance for capability in low speed situations where there could be a greater loss of traction, or where one wheel on an axle has no traction. DTV AWD should put Toyota/Lexus on par with Audi, Acura and Subaru for the sake of all-weather traction.
However, if you are looking for AWD for performance driving, unfortunately Toyota nor Lexus offer any such system.
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