Official 5th Generation GS Thread: Returning with Hydrogen Power?

[Gecko]

I think the 2019 ES reveal this year will be very telling. If the car offers AWD and F-Sport options, along with a more upscale interior, that is probably the writing on the wall for the GS.

Every month that passes, the case for renewing the GS gets harder and harder to make. Many cars are dropping off the radar -- fast, while OEMs can't build enough SUVs. In December, Lexus sales breakout was 72% SUVs. Think about that...

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

True, but on the other hand German endless teasing, is not a good thing either: with heavy camo, with light camo, accurate photo-shop, in darkness, only one detail in light, profile shot without details, without camo with shadow, low resolution deformed 'leak', small sized 'leak' on only one side but not flattering spec, small size 'leak' of interior, finally small size 'leak' of all the rest, final official teaser, high resolution official photos, one month late additional high resolution photos of special spec, final sales images of low-spec boring production cars, new accessories shots, etc....

You say that but despite that having its own downsides, it is much better than leaving your potential buyers in the dark like what Toyota/Lexus are doing. It actually gives potential buyers for something to anticipate for.

Because Car Acquisition Syndrome (C.A.S.) is a relatively rare disease. An overwhelming amount of car buyers don't care what's coming next and a corporation the size of TMC really doesn't want to tease people too early so they stop buying current models. Well, people care when new model is about to hit market because that's when they get the best deals out of the current one, but dealers and car companies don't like selling their products cheap.

Breathe, calm down, quell your inner urge to buy/lease the next hottest car and you'll feel fine. I've waited for the 'next perfect ES' for a decade since buying the perfect XV40 ES350: I know it's a hard struggle. I once regretted not having the guts to go for the GS460 but I imagine it would be much more painful to wait for the 'next good GS'.

I'll be honest. I am calm. I really don't have urges (I'm sure most people in this forum are not that intense in this manner), but I just want to see them do better. There are so many alternatives and other ways in which that doesn't bother me at all!! But the problem is that they are shooting themselves in the foot. I want them to do better, they have done everything right in terms of making TMC into such a legendary success! This isn't about me, but they need to stay relevant.

Axing the GS will pulverize Lexus car's image as reliable, secure, taut, extremely sporty and capable and really luxurious, into less cars that ignorant people cannot call "rebadged Toyota's". This won't keep them relevant. They need to keep both ES and GS. Honestly, everything in their lineup are playing such a key role for Lexus, that if they drop any of them, it will hurt them a lot in the future in terms of reputation. However, it won't put that large of a dent in sales that if, the SUV craze continues, they'll be fine.

EDIT: Clarity

 

[IS-SV]

Agreed, need to have both a (improved) GS and ES in lineup.

And Mercedes E/CLS and BMW 5 series US sales volume is proof that a lucrative top tier premium mid sixed sedan market exists.

 

[Gecko]

And Mercedes E/CLS and BMW 5 series US sales volume is proof that a lucrative top tier premium mid sixed sedan market exists.

Are they really, though?

A decade ago, the 5 Series and E Class pretty reliably sold around 6k units per month, then it slowly fell to about 5k, and now - before the redesign - the 5 Series was selling 2-3k units a month. Mercedes combined E Class and CLS sales into one number and that is often around 3-5k units. The market is falling overall.

Midsize sedans might still be more lucrative for BMW and Mercedes because they share engines, platforms and tech across the lineup between C-E-S-CLS and 3-5-6-7, but conservative Lexus has always leaned more on Toyota for economies of scale, versus investing in their own premium RWD assets. I've gone on and on about this, but Lexus decided to stop investing in the GS sometime around 2006 and started more heavily investing in the ES. None of us know what the numbers look like on the back end, but there's no doubt that a platform shared with the Camry, Avalon, Sienna, Highlander, etc. is cheaper to produce than one shared only with the IS. So, Toyota started slowly making their case: No V8 GS, carryover V6, no marketing/awareness for the hybrid, limited options sheet, limited production, etc.

11 years ago, I wrote a post on ClubLexus about how Lexus needed a flexible premium RWD architecture that would allow them to scale their best thinking to all of their models - IS, GS, LS, SC (at that time), RX, GX - the same way that BMW and Mercedes do -- instead of "engineering down" by using Toyota products and then trying to make them "good enough" with wood and leather interiors. In a sense, I got what I wanted with GA-L. In another sense, I didn't because we still have FWD ES and RX, and it's looking like the GS is going away.

I believe the new ES is going to be one of the most pivotal Lexus launches in a very long time. Why? They're at a crossroads here, in many different ways. I do believe they'll drop the GS -- it's too hard to justify in this market, and it's reasonable to expect that they could make the ES good enough to fill the gap it leaves behind for at least 75% of owners. Lexus is going to have to either: 1) really rewrite what an "ES" is and turn it into the Lexus version of the Audi A6 or 2) Completely give up the market and continue to build and engineer the ES as a car that is "good enough" for people who think they want a midsize luxury car. Will they use the 2GR-FKS with only 300hp? Will they unveil a new smaller displacement Dynamic Force turbo V6? Will it get a new Dynamic Force 2.0T? Will they use the same outdated, less capable Dynamic Torque Control AWD system... or will they unveil a new active AWD system? Will it get an F-Sport package?

More importantly, what decisions they make here will also translate to the next gen RX. The RX badly needs a 350+hp engine option, but how can they do that with FWD -- or even with DTC AWD? That system is not good enough for 300+ hp applications, and it's certainly not sporty - at all. If Toyota/Lexus is going to rely on FWD for their midsize products, they have to engineer an AWD system that can take higher horsepower applications or they're going to be left behind.

If Lexus can does the following for ES, I will say that I think the retirement of the GS makes sense.

- Base engine: All-new Dynamic Force 2.0T I4 with ~265hp/280lb-ft of torque "ES 300/RX 300" with 8AT
- Optional engine: All-new Dynamic Force 3.0L turbocharged V6 with ~340hp/360lb-ft of torque "ES 400/RX 400" with 10 AT
- Hybrid option for ES: Li-ion Hybrid system from the new Camry LE "ES 300h"
- Hybrid option for RX: Multi-stage hybrid system with new Dynamic Force V6, ~320hp
- Standard front-wheel drive
- Optional active AWD system with torque split that can flex from 50/50 to 30/70 front to rear (Standard on F-Sport V6)

For one, the next RX almost has to have these types of upgrades to be competitive. Two, so does the next generation Lexus midsize sedan, no matter if you call that an ES or a GS.

If you can buy either:

- an ES 400 F Sport with 340hp, 360lb-ft of torque, 10AT, the F Sport package, active all wheel drive, red leather interior option, etc
or
- an ES 300/400 with luxury package including pleated leather, woodgrain, 12" screen, upgraded wheels, Mark Levinson, Lexus Safety Sense +, Panoramic roof, etc

... nobody is going to even care about the GS. And Lexus knows that. The genius in this plan is that they can also sell a $40k FWD ES 300 with base equipment all the way up to a $65k ES 400 F Sport AWD - totally expanding one product line while saving costs on another. It's all about the Benjamins, baby.

Is the 550i M Sport or E43 AMG owner going to be shopping for this car? No, but are they right now? No.

The only qualm I have with this plan is that I think this car should be named "GS" for many reasons - not the least of which is that the GS is already a global product and the ES is not, and the GS is seen as more premium.

Now, if there is no active AWD option for this new ES and Lexus tries to stuff a torquey turbo V6 (or the 2GR-FKS) into an ES FWD or with DTC AWD, they have failed. Period.

(IS-SV, I went off on a tangent here... not directed at you )

 

[IS-SV]

Agreed the sedan market across the board is falling, crossovers being growth segment. Despite the market shift Mercedes and BMW have continued to sell reasonable numbers of mid (and compact) sedans. I expect this from a top tier lux brand and think Lexus should be there too.

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

If Lexus can does the following for ES, I will say that I think the retirement of the GS makes sense.

- Base engine: All-new Dynamic Force 2.0T I4 with ~265hp/280lb-ft of torque "ES 300/RX 300" with 8AT
- Optional engine: All-new Dynamic Force 3.0L turbocharged V6 with ~340hp/360lb-ft of torque "ES 400/RX 400" with 10 AT
- Hybrid option for ES: Li-ion Hybrid system from the new Camry LE "ES 300h"
- Hybrid option for RX: Multi-stage hybrid system with new Dynamic Force V6, ~320hp
- Standard front-wheel drive
- Optional active AWD system with torque split that can flex from 50/50 to 30/70 front to rear (Standard on F-Sport V6)

For one, the next RX almost has to have these types of upgrades to be competitive. Two, so does the next generation Lexus midsize sedan, no matter if you call that an ES or a GS.

If you can buy either:

- an ES 400 F Sport with 340hp, 360lb-ft of torque, 10AT, the F Sport package, active all wheel drive, red leather interior option, etc
or
- an ES 300/400 with luxury package including pleated leather, woodgrain, 12" screen, upgraded wheels, Mark Levinson, Lexus Safety Sense +, Panoramic roof, etc

... nobody is going to even care about the GS. And Lexus knows that. The genius in this plan is that they can also sell a $40k FWD ES 300 with base equipment all the way up to a $65k ES 400 F Sport AWD - totally expanding one product line while saving costs on another. It's all about the Benjamins, baby.

Good sir, I see two things from your post that I wouldn't think Toyota/Lexus would do. To begin, do you believe that someone like Toyota/Lexus who spent AGES (must be in bold because it literally took forever) to build the V35A-FTS 3.5 liter twin-turbo V6 engine, and actually just slap in a 3.0L? I see so many who mention that they should put in a 3.0L turbo V6 in their mid range cars, however in my respectful opinion, I don't believe that Toyota/Lexus would do that because it would affect too much from R&D costs (knowing the bean counters from TMC), and I don't think they would do that, considering if they were to, they would need to adapt that engine to all kinds of markets (for example China) where they have a displacement tax, and some other countries, where they crack down on manufacturers in terms of emissions. I mentioned before a few posts ago, Toyota/Lexus would not create a product unless they are forced to. No other company has a mid range 6 cylinder engine then a higher displacement engine for their highest model. The closest I can think of is BMW. Where their single turbo I6 is in the Mx40i cars and the twin turbo I6 is in their M cars, but the same old 3.0L.

My second point is, shouldn't they have released an active AWD with the LS? It is their flagship no? Why release it with something like the ES?

I do like all of your other ideas Gecko, they make a lot of sense and I can see them releasing a new Dynamic Force turbo 4-cylinder engine. It's just that, all this stuff, should not go with FWD. That is why, there is a huge cult following of the GS.

 

[ssun30]

... nobody is going to even care about the GS. And Lexus knows that. The genius in this plan is that they can also sell a $40k FWD ES 300 with base equipment all the way up to a $65k ES 400 F Sport AWD - totally expanding one product line while saving costs on another. It's all about the Benjamins, baby.

The only qualm I have with this plan is that I think this car should be named "GS" for many reasons - not the least of which is that the GS is already a global product and the ES is not, and the GS is seen as more premium.

Now, if there is no active AWD option for this new ES and Lexus tries to stuff a torquey turbo V6 (or the 2GR-FKS) into an ES FWD or with DTC AWD, they have failed. Period.

What you proposed just mirrors what I wrote in the ES thread for China: basically they need to make the ES "one sedan to rule them all", except the version you have here is for the U.S. market where power demand is on average 50% higher than rest of the world. All the powertrain options you mentioned are totally reasonable for the 7ES to stay relevant with the exception of the multistage hybrid: it will be too long for a transverse mount.

Regardless, there is just no way Lexus could not achieve this because there already exist platforms that has demonstrated the plausibility of a transverse platform that can accommodate a wide range of drivetrain options: the Ford CD4, GM E2XX, and Volvo SPA. There exists the Lincoln Continental, Cadillac XTS, and Volvo S90. Lexus has no excuse to not have something at least as good as those.

I don't think Lexus is going to disappoint us with yet another 2GR with questionable AWD since this is the most important sedan launch for them before 2020, period. I'm only worried about them pulling a 5LS move here: downsizing the V6 to a turbo 4 (2.5L). This is highly possible because modern I4Ts could easily make 150hp/L without issues, making a 350hp 2.5L turbo 4 is a trivial task. V6TT on 7ES is really about decency and attitude.

P.S.: We shouldn't be comparing the ES to the A6 since the latter is based on MLB platform, which is longitudinal; the A6 is more comparable to the E-Class/5 series/GS than ES.

 

[ssun30]

To begin, do you believe that someone like Toyota/Lexus who spent AGES (must be in bold because it literally took forever) to build the V35A-FTS 3.5 liter twin-turbo V6 engine, and actually just slap in a 3.0L? I see so many who mention that they should put in a 3.0L turbo V6 in their mid range cars, however in my respectful opinion, I don't believe that Toyota/Lexus would do that because it would affect too much from R&D costs (knowing the bean counters from TMC), and I don't think they would do that, considering if they were to, they would need to adapt that engine to all kinds of markets (for example China) where they have a displacement tax, and some other countries, where they crack down on manufacturers in terms of emissions.
My second point is, shouldn't they have released an active AWD with the LS? It is their flagship no? Why release it with something like the ES?

1) If they want to go back to the high value market in China, they absolutely need a 3.0L V6TT since a 3.0 vehicle is subject to 25% displacement tax compared to 40% for 3.5. Not having a 2GR replacement meant the average selling price of the ES fell from ¥500k (for XV40) to merely ¥350k (for XV60) in the past five years. While the ES expanded significantly in sales volume, profitability suffered. It also meant the Chinese market RX has nowhere near to the amount of success it has in USA.
The V35A is a UR (V8) replacement, not a GR (V6) replacement: it competes against 4.0L V8s in the segment by offering similar power but much better fuel efficiency. TMC needs a smaller engine than V35A for its mainstream SUVs and trucks to replace the terribly old GR series. As I mentioned above, the only thing I fear is them ditching the V6 for a 2.5L turbo 4, which requires much less R&D. Also a 2.5 is subject to 12% displacement tax, which will make a killer engine for the Chinese market.
Also the V35A-FTS didn't take ages to develop. Rather TMC spent a decade testing individual technology components across multiple engine families and then they put together a complete technology package called Dynamic Force. What Toyota didn't expect is the downsizing revolution, so they are already too late when they started developing a modern turbocharging solution. Remember Dynamic Force technically does not need turbocharging to meet all the performance targets but the market had already shifted towards smaller displacements while the Dynamic Force engines were being developed: the 8AR-FTS can be considered a panic move. I think the A25A is the best evidence of this awkward timing: if they knew downsizing is the future, they would develop a 2.0 turbo instead.

2) Longitudinal AWD and transverse AWD are very different. The former is trivial to do while the latter is very challenging to be designed properly. When people talk about "bad AWD" it's more likely they are talking about a transverse one.

 

[Gecko]

My second point is, shouldn't they have released an active AWD with the LS? It is their flagship no? Why release it with something like the ES?

I do like all of your other ideas Gecko, they make a lot of sense and I can see them releasing a new Dynamic Force turbo 4-cylinder engine. It's just that, all this stuff, should not go with FWD. That is why, there is a huge cult following of the GS.

ssun30 covers most of the points about the necessity of a 3.0L turbo V6, so I won't go into depth there other than to say that Lexus needs that lower displacement engine in many vehicles - IS, RX, ES, RC, etc. and it seems like 3.5L TT V6 is seen as the replacement for the V8, so, most likely it will be a flagship or F engine. 3.5L TT V6, 3.0L T V6 and 2.0L T I4 covers 90% of the lineup very nicely without considering hybrids.

To your second point, Lexus is now behind on AWD systems and has been for quite some time. They are overdue for an AWD system with torque vectoring as well as front-to-rear active torque distribution. That quite frankly should have debuted on GA-L with LS and LC. With the FT-AC concept, Toyota finally made mention of a torque vectoring AWD system, so it seems to be in the works but it might be a few years before it's delivered. LS is mostly sold as RWD, and if they are going to eliminate the GS and offer a higher horsepower engine option, ES will really need such a system. For LS, it's probably more for convenience/traction.

All of this AWD trickery is part of what has made VWAG's MLB platform so successful - and cost effective - and has allowed them to build cars like RS7 or A8 on FWD-biased platforms. RWD can handle higher power with no problems, but we are approaching the limits of what you can do with transverse FWD and remain drivable without massive torque steer, so that is where advanced AWD systems come into play.

 

[Levi]

Agreed the sedan market across the board is falling, crossovers being growth segment.

This is off-topic concerning the GS, but regarding the shift from sedan to crossover market, I would rather like it to take this approach, of lifted sporty hatchback/coupe, rather than non practical high with low ground clearance non-off-road capable crossovers.

Examples:

But I thing the market is starting to get in that direction, with the X6, X4, GLE and GLC Coupe, the Q4 or e-Tron Sportback, the i-Pace, the rumored S50 (low version of XC40?), CH-R, and quite likely the Model Y. Lexus should by all means do that with a next generation "IS" "lifted lift-back coupe".

What Toyota didn't expect is the downsizing revolution, so they are already too late when they started developing a modern turbocharging solution.

It is not that Toyota did not expect the downsizing revolution, it is that Toyota does not believe the downsizing revolution lie. But now they have no choice, the market forces them.

Longitudinal AWD and transverse AWD are very different. The former is trivial to do while the latter is very challenging to be designed properly. When people talk about "bad AWD" it's more likely they are talking about a transverse one.

True. The really bad thing about FWD is the long front overhang, which is not possible to shorten due to crash safety regulations/necessities.

To your second point, Lexus is now behind on AWD systems and has been for quite some time. They are overdue for an AWD system with torque vectoring as well as front-to-rear active torque distribution. That quite frankly should have debuted on GA-L with LS and LC. With the FT-AC concept, Toyota finally made mention of a torque vectoring AWD system, so it seems to be in the works but it might be a few years before it's delivered. LS is mostly sold as RWD, and if they are going to eliminate the GS and offer a higher horsepower engine option, ES will really need such a system. For LS, it's probably more for convenience/traction.

RWD can handle higher power with no problems, but we are approaching the limits of what you can do with transverse FWD and remain drivable without massive torque steer, so that is where advanced AWD systems come into play.

This is very true, especially that now SUVs or unibody instead of body-on-frame and that they have no more solid axles, but independent suspension. Traction control is a very cheap and inefficient way of putting down power. TMC needs a high tech AWD system, that is good on road, but can also be used off-road like in the next Land Cruiser for example.

 

[IS-SV]

Yes, a bit off topic but I see vehicles like X6, X4, GLE and GLC Coupe as crossovers still (lifted too) with sleeker rooflines and sexier/sporty styling, higher price tags, better profit margins), good business. It would be nice to see Lexus compete here too.

Versus the GS discussion as being more comparable to successful Mercedes and BMW sedan and 4 door coupe equivalents (given declining sedan market).

 

[renyeo]

I couldn’t imagine a future Lexus riding on a Toyota platform. This wouldn’t go down well with the brand’s new found identity.

Would it be sensible to move GS upmarket where the old LS has vacated while underpinning the next ES with the GA-L platform?

 

[Gecko]

I couldn’t imagine a future Lexus riding on a Toyota platform. This wouldn’t go down well with the brand’s new found identity.

Would it be sensible to move GS upmarket where the old LS has vacated while underpinning the next ES with the GA-L platform?

What do you mean? All Lexus products are on Toyota platforms. Crown has shared platforms with the IS and GS, and it now shares GA-L with the LS and LC. The ES and RX are shared with the Camry/Avalon/Highlander/Sienna, NX is based on the Rav4, LX is based on the Land Cruiser 200 and GX is based on the Land Cruiser Prado/150. Toyota is part of Lexus' DNA.

 

[spwolf]

What do you mean? All Lexus products are on Toyota platforms. Crown has shared platforms with the IS and GS, and it now shares GA-L with the LS and LC. The ES and RX are shared with the Camry/Avalon/Highlander/Sienna, NX is based on the Rav4, LX is based on the Land Cruiser 200 and GX is based on the Land Cruiser Prado/150. Toyota is part of Lexus' DNA.

Of course it is all Toyota but when it comes to rwd platforms, I am sure it is built for Lexus first. Same goes for ES vs Avalon for instance.

 

[Gecko]

Of course it is all Toyota but when it comes to rwd platforms, I am sure it is built for Lexus first. Same goes for ES vs Avalon for instance.

Not sure we will ever really know for sure, but Toyota also has the RWD Crown and previously had Celsior and others, so I'm sure there is/was a holistic focus on multiple RWD applications across both brands.

 

[spwolf]

Not sure we will ever really know for sure, but Toyota also has the RWD Crown and previously had Celsior and others, so I'm sure there is/was a holistic focus on multiple RWD applications across both brands.

I am sure said economies of scale play into this, but since Lexus sells better than Crown and worldwide, it is common sense that Lexus is priority.
Same as with Avalon vs ES - it is referred to as Avalon platform to make Lexus ES seem less important, but in reality, Lexus ES sells at least 3x more than Avalon, maybe 4x these days with China. Pretty obvious that Lexus ES would be priority when designing it and then it trickles down to Avalon.

Just like old RX platform came from base Toyota and could never do what they wanted them to do, sure you can say it was a holistic approach but in the end when you build 2-3 million Toyota's off similar platform and $200k-$3000 Lexi, then it is obvious where the focus is and why RX was never as good drive as they wanted it to be.

Or with new biturbo V6 and V8 engines, they are obviously made for Lexus, since Toyota sells very few of these. Even 2.0t is not going into many Toyota vehicles, while it is spread into Lexus deeply.

Thankfully new TNGA is good platform and vehicles with it ride really good... it is going to be a boon for all of their vehicles, including ES and future RX.

 

[mikeavelli]

Another issue is the LS now drives like a GS. So the GS has really be squeezed here by the ES and LS. The LS is now sportier looking than the GS. True it starts 30k more but the ES will surely look like a smaller LS.

The GS truly would need to become something different and maybe a 4 door coupe SUV is the way to go.

 

[spwolf]

If Lexus can does the following for ES, I will say that I think the retirement of the GS makes sense.

- Base engine: All-new Dynamic Force 2.0T I4 with ~265hp/280lb-ft of torque "ES 300/RX 300" with 8AT
- Optional engine: All-new Dynamic Force 3.0L turbocharged V6 with ~340hp/360lb-ft of torque "ES 400/RX 400" with 10 AT
- Hybrid option for ES: Li-ion Hybrid system from the new Camry LE "ES 300h"
- Hybrid option for RX: Multi-stage hybrid system with new Dynamic Force V6, ~320hp
- Standard front-wheel drive
- Optional active AWD system with torque split that can flex from 50/50 to 30/70 front to rear (Standard on F-Sport V6)

For one, the next RX almost has to have these types of upgrades to be competitive. Two, so does the next generation Lexus midsize sedan, no matter if you call that an ES or a GS.

If you can buy either:

- an ES 400 F Sport with 340hp, 360lb-ft of torque, 10AT, the F Sport package, active all wheel drive, red leather interior option, etc
or
- an ES 300/400 with luxury package including pleated leather, woodgrain, 12" screen, upgraded wheels, Mark Levinson, Lexus Safety Sense +, Panoramic roof, etc

... nobody is going to even care about the GS. And Lexus knows that. The genius in this plan is that they can also sell a $40k FWD ES 300 with base equipment all the way up to a $65k ES 400 F Sport AWD - totally expanding one product line while saving costs on another. It's all about the Benjamins, baby.

Is the 550i M Sport or E43 AMG owner going to be shopping for this car? No, but are they right now? No.

The only qualm I have with this plan is that I think this car should be named "GS" for many reasons - not the least of which is that the GS is already a global product and the ES is not, and the GS is seen as more premium.

Now, if there is no active AWD option for this new ES and Lexus tries to stuff a torquey turbo V6 (or the 2GR-FKS) into an ES FWD or with DTC AWD, they have failed. Period.

(IS-SV, I went off on a tangent here... not directed at you )

While I generally do agree with you, I doubt many people care about how awesome AWD system is - reality is that in those areas where you need AWD, groud clearance is also must and their current FWD system in RX is fine... it is not the best, but I very much doubt that their customers care about if it can go up some engineered slope with one wheel on the ice and other in the air. GS does not get many sales due to its all time AWD system. Sure, they can build better one, afterall they own Torsen, but will the real customers care enough to pay $1k more? Thats the question.

As to the picking up the details like lion vs nimh, or having 5hp more or less, i doubt it matters either.

Main thing here in the end would be that new TNGA is simply a lot better platform than what they had before, and that new suspensions are really good, with good balance of handling vs comfort, something that they never had before. Combine it with good hybrid from Camry, and it would a shame if new ES did not come worldwide.

When it comes to the interior, looking at Avalon, I have no doubts that ES will have its best interior ever and that options will be plentiful.

Audi A6 is very popular around here in Europe, it is most sold fleet/executive sedan and with changing CO2 targets now most sold is 2.0 diesel with FWD. ES with its good hybrid system and finally a good suspension for Europe can compete a lot better than GS ever could... but the question is if Lexus will still find it worthwhile, since in the end, volumes will be low.. but how low? Certainly a lot better than GS that sells peanuts.

 

[Gecko]

While I generally do agree with you, I doubt many people care about how awesome AWD system is - reality is that in those areas where you need AWD, groud clearance is also must and their current FWD system in RX is fine... it is not the best, but I very much doubt that their customers care about if it can go up some engineered slope with one wheel on the ice and other in the air. GS does not get many sales due to its all time AWD system. Sure, they can build better one, afterall they own Torsen, but will the real customers care enough to pay $1k more? Thats the question.

As to the picking up the details like lion vs nimh, or having 5hp more or less, i doubt it matters either.

Main thing here in the end would be that new TNGA is simply a lot better platform than what they had before, and that new suspensions are really good, with good balance of handling vs comfort, something that they never had before. Combine it with good hybrid from Camry, and it would a shame if new ES did not come worldwide.

When it comes to the interior, looking at Avalon, I have no doubts that ES will have its best interior ever and that options will be plentiful.

Audi A6 is very popular around here in Europe, it is most sold fleet/executive sedan and with changing CO2 targets now most sold is 2.0 diesel with FWD. ES with its good hybrid system and finally a good suspension for Europe can compete a lot better than GS ever could... but the question is if Lexus will still find it worthwhile, since in the end, volumes will be low.. but how low? Certainly a lot better than GS that sells peanuts.

I agree with much of what you are saying but have two concerns:

If Lexus plans to keep some disenfranchised GS owners, they need to have a variant of the ES that is higher performing than it was before. That is where the AWD part comes into play (in a FWD car) - less so for traction and bad weather. Driving an ES 350 hard is no fun - front is twitchy and fidgety, torque steer is bad. An active AWD system would allow Lexus to create a higher performance version that could hopefully keep some GS shoppers.

V6 Camry is the most powerful TNGA vehicle we have so far, and the reviews were not very good with regard to driving dynamics. Many commented that the V6 overwhelmed the chassis, even on the XSE V6, and there was a general preference for the 4 cylinder because it was better balanced. I am sure there will be changes for the ES, but at first glance, these impressions do not bode well for a car that is going to do battle with the A6 and E Class.

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

V6 Camry is the most powerful TNGA vehicle we have so far, and the reviews were not very good with regard to driving dynamics. Many commented that the V6 overwhelmed the chassis, even on the XSE V6, and there was a general preference for the 4 cylinder because it was better balanced. I am sure there will be changes for the ES, but at first glance, these impressions do not bode well for a car that is going to do battle with the A6 and E Class.

Pardon me Gecko, isn't the LC and LS more powerful? I believe you meant it is the most powerful TNGA-F car. Your point still stands though. Just something I noticed.