maiaramdan

Expert
Messages
1,811
Reactions
1,419
@Ian Schmidt
But BMW , Benz & Audi only have 1 car in this category unlike Lexus with 2
Unless they will do as the Germans with GS and get 6/8 Series grand coupe, CLS/AMG GT4 & A7 body style.
The GS has no logical hope
 

Gecko

Administrator
Messages
4,914
Reactions
11,856
So what you're saying is there's no reason to have a GS in the first place and/or that it's a very niche car. Which we knew - BMW has essentially the same problem with the 5 Series.

If you think about about it historically, there was - at one point - a very clear case for an ES and GS. The ES was a smaller, entry level product that competed more directly with the C Class, while the GS was a true midsize sports sedan that was more aimed at the E Class and 5 Series.

Over three generations, Lexus grew the ES to now being the second-largest sedan in the lineup, while simultaneously neglecting the GS by eliminating it's performance credentials for the 3rd generation and then dropping the V8 for the fourth generation. So what you end up with is two cars that aside from their drivetrain layouts are now very similar, with one having a massive price advantage over the other. Furthermore, FWD vs RWD doesn't really matter much to every day consumers - people come in wanting a "midsize Lexus sedan," and the ES ticks most of those boxes while costing significantly less.

This issue has been compounded by Lexus dealers who know the ES is a quick sale and who don't put the effort into socializing the GS with consumers. I worked in a Lexus dealer for 3 years and saw this happen numerous times: Someone could come into the dealership with a GS wanting another one, and sales would automatically usher that person into an ES because it's what they had on the lot. I saw people come in with E Class, 5 Series, etc. saying, "I want to look at a GS," and the dealer would generally say, "No, no - have you seen the ES?! The ES is what you really want!" Dealers have decided they already know what consumers want, and quite frankly, history proves they're probably right.

Depending on size, a dealer's inventory generally looks something like:

5-7 black on black ESs
5-7 white on tan ESs
2-3 Silver on black ESs
2-3 extraneous color combinations of ES (Burgundy, blue, champagne)
1 black GS F Sport
1 white/silver GS base

... and that's about it.

Dealers stock what they know they can sell quickly, and that's ES in popular color combinations. At the same time, Lexus has given them that car in the ES, which is bigger than the 5 Series and E Class but costs half as much, so consumers feel like they're getting a great deal on a "Lexus midsize sedan," and some of them don't ever even get to see or consider a GS.

Looking forward at some of the rumors and speculation, if it plays out as planned, what Lexus is about to do is brilliant. If they elevate the ES slightly and offer an F Sport variant along with optional AWD, they'll probably capture 70% of the people who would have bought a GS while only offering one vehicle in this segment. Think about ES with FWD, AWD, 4cylinder, 4 cylinder hybrid, V6, F Sport, luxury package, etc. Even if they bump up the base price to $40-42k, they have already undercut the E Class and 5 Series by $10k and those are base models. You'll probably be able to snag a really nicely equipped ES for $46-48k, and that'll be something like $20k less than a comparably equipped E Class or 5 Series. Lexus is about to do to Mercedes and BMW what they already did to the GS, and they can do it because they have the scale and flexibility with TNGA-K to price the car so low. In addition, they already know people don't care much about FWD vs RWD, and those few who do are already going somewhere else anyway. Plus consider the mass exodus from passenger cars to light trucks - they are positioning the ES to run cleanup on the entire segment.

On the flip side, if you elevate the GS to being an ultra dramatic 4 door coupe, you have the ability to pick up that midsize sedan buyer who DOES want the performance and drama an ES won't offer, while being able to compete against the E Class and 5 Series at the top end, not to mention A7, CLS, and 6 Series GC. They can also offer GS F and not have to bother with ES F, leaving the ES to completely fill that "every day luxury sedan" space. It also gives Lexus an emotional car that's more attainable than the LC, and hedges their losses in the ES/5 Series/E Class segment as sales there drop off but sales of 4 door coupes remain strong. Also consider the rumor of "GS Sport Cross" - this gives Lexus something that's sportier than RX and NX, and it's a size in between them. This would also be a great playground for Lexus to experiment with BEVs, plug in tech, etc. A product that's more niche and more emotional will be better received with such tech, I think.

I think the last decade for GS and ES has been very transitional (hell, for Lexus as a whole), but I really believe what they're about to do is very smart. We'll know soon.
 

ssun30

Expert
Messages
3,524
Reactions
7,753
Dealers stock what they know they can sell quickly, and that's ES in popular color combinations. At the same time, Lexus has given them that car in the ES, which is bigger than the 5 Series and E Class but costs half as much, so consumers feel like they're getting a great deal on a "Lexus midsize sedan," and some of them don't ever even get to see or consider a GS.

So the same exact problem will persist even if Lexus elevate the GS to be something really sensational. Lexus dealers have been very comfortable selling ES and ES only. They will keep stocking them up and ignore the GS no matter how good the new GS is. If someone has a bigger budget, the dealers will probably just recommend a RX, or even a GX (which is surprisingly doing well) because, well, SUVs. And further up is LS territory, which is a steal at $75k. The GS-F will probably be the only GS that makes sense because there's nothing similar in Lexus' lineup already.
 

Gecko

Administrator
Messages
4,914
Reactions
11,856
So the same exact problem will persist even if Lexus elevate the GS to be something really sensational. Lexus dealers have been very comfortable selling ES and ES only. They will keep stocking them up and ignore the GS no matter how good the new GS is. If someone has a bigger budget, the dealers will probably just recommend a RX, or even a GX (which is surprisingly doing well) because, well, SUVs. And further up is LS territory, which is a steal at $75k. The GS-F will probably be the only GS that makes sense because there's nothing similar in Lexus' lineup already.

I think that will all depend on how ES and GS are positioned. So far, LC and LS are the "new Lexus" top end products so we have yet to see how Lexus would execute something like a $40-50k ES. Part of the current problem is that both GS and ES currently look like true, three-box sedans and are only within about 30 horsepower of each other. If ES evolves and stays true to that formula, and Lexus is really (finally) willing to differentiate them, there is room I think.

Consider the GS as an ultra-dramatic four door coupe, something like a four door LC but perhaps even more striking - low window line, small greenhouse, exaggerated spindle front end and maybe starting with a V6 pumping out 350-375 horsepower and then offering the 3.5L TT V6 and the multi-stage hybrid option. That's a very different animal from ~300hp, family-friendly ES. They could also potentially ditch "F Sport" like they did with LC and make the sporting intentions standard.
 

Ian Schmidt

Moderator
Messages
2,373
Reactions
4,160
Consider the GS as an ultra-dramatic four door coupe, something like a four door LC but perhaps even more striking - low window line, small greenhouse, exaggerated spindle front end and maybe starting with a V6 pumping out 350-375 horsepower and then offering the 3.5L TT V6 and the multi-stage hybrid option. That's a very different animal from ~300hp, family-friendly ES. They could also potentially ditch "F Sport" like they did with LC and make the sporting intentions standard.

But that will make the GS even more of a niche product, and it would also somewhat interfere with the RC then.
 

bogglo

Admirer
Messages
605
Reactions
811
I think that will all depend on how ES and GS are positioned. So far, LC and LS are the "new Lexus" top end products so we have yet to see how Lexus would execute something like a $40-50k ES. Part of the current problem is that both GS and ES currently look like true, three-box sedans and are only within about 30 horsepower of each other. If ES evolves and stays true to that formula, and Lexus is really (finally) willing to differentiate them, there is room I think.

Consider the GS as an ultra-dramatic four door coupe, something like a four door LC but perhaps even more striking - low window line, small greenhouse, exaggerated spindle front end and maybe starting with a V6 pumping out 350-375 horsepower and then offering the 3.5L TT V6 and the multi-stage hybrid option. That's a very different animal from ~300hp, family-friendly ES. They could also potentially ditch "F Sport" like they did with LC and make the sporting intentions standard.

Good Idea.

LS/LC:
I can see the TTV6 making it to the LC sometime down the road making it available in three trims. V6TT, V6MS-hybrid, *V8 TT*. V6 TT priced similarly as the LS. V8 TT replace the current LC 500 pricewise and LS v8TT too

IS/RC:
The RC should be redesigned with the mindset to be the coupe version of the IS. That way it can get rid of the combination of GS and IS it has right now. They need to figure a way to bring The ISF back (ISF/RCF). They should keep the boxy shape of the IS to differentiate it a little from the RC.

ES:
We saw it testing with the E-class and Audi. I think there is a reason the 5series wasn't spotted. The ES can easily compete with those two cars without taking away its characteristics. Luxury like the E-class handling like Audi since it is already FWD based. Also a regular E-class is a nice driving car focused more on comfort.

GS:
Redesign and refocus. Give it a coupe like shape that way it does not need a coupe version of its own. Make it look bold aggressive and still gorgeous in such a way that just by looking at it no sales man would be able to compare it with the ES. Give it performance to back the look up. Get rid of that GS300 weakness by putting a real 3.0 T. Make sure any future GS300 is putting up number close to the current 350. introduce the 3.5MS Hybrid. detune the V6TT in the LS enough to still compete reasonably.

Just an opinion. I still think lexus needs a 3.0L TT.
 
Last edited:

Gecko

Administrator
Messages
4,914
Reactions
11,856
I agree, @bogglo - good post :thumbsup:

But that will make the GS even more of a niche product, and it would also somewhat interfere with the RC then.

I think GS needs to be priced something like $64-78k, which in theory, would be a bargain for a car that competes with the CLS, A7 and 6 Series Gran Coupe. RC starts around $40k and like bogglo mentions above, I think we will see the next gen closely aligned to the IS redesign instead of being a mashup of IS, IS C and GS. There should be a big difference in engines, interior quality, features and technology between an entry level two-door coupe like the RC and a midsize four-door coupe.

So you'd end up, hypothetically, with something like:

IS: $38-50k
RC: $40-57k
ES: $43-56k
GS: $64-78k
LS: $75-100k
LC: $95-115k

IS F: $64-72k
RC F: $68-74k
GS F: $85-92k
LS F: $100-120k
LC F: $135-150k

^That pricing structure actually makes things a lot easier, IMO, than what we have now where IS bleeds into ES, which bleeds into GS. IS is pretty clearly the choice for the entry level sports coupe, ES is the logical choice for a midsize sedan, GS is a niche product before you get to the LS flagship.

I think there's also a lot of demand in other global markets for four-door coupes vs. traditional sedans, so I think Lexus could make the case with a GS globally. One of the biggest things to consider is Lexus' strategy for F cars... leaving a hole in the high performance midsize sedan arena seems weird. Going from IS F to LS F is a big jump. If someone is going to fork over the money for a car like that, I'd have to think they'd be more apt to purchase a four door coupe anyway... similar to how Audi only offers RS7 here, and not RS6. It's already an emotional purchase - I'd rather go all the way and get the sexier model.
 

bogglo

Admirer
Messages
605
Reactions
811
I agree, @bogglo - good post :thumbsup:



I think GS needs to be priced something like $64-78k, which in theory, would be a bargain for a car that competes with the CLS, A7 and 6 Series Gran Coupe. RC starts around $40k and like bogglo mentions above, I think we will see the next gen closely aligned to the IS redesign instead of being a mashup of IS, IS C and GS. There should be a big difference in engines, interior quality, features and technology between an entry level two-door coupe like the RC and a midsize four-door coupe.

So you'd end up, hypothetically, with something like:

IS: $38-50k
RC: $40-57k
ES: $43-56k
GS: $64-78k
LS: $75-100k
LC: $95-115k

IS F: $64-72k
RC F: $68-74k
GS F: $85-92k
LS F: $100-120k
LC F: $135-150k

^That pricing structure actually makes things a lot easier, IMO, than what we have now where IS bleeds into ES, which bleeds into GS. IS is pretty clearly the choice for the entry level sports coupe, ES is the logical choice for a midsize sedan, GS is a niche product before you get to the LS flagship.

I think there's also a lot of demand in other global markets for four-door coupes vs. traditional sedans, so I think Lexus could make the case with a GS globally. One of the biggest things to consider is Lexus' strategy for F cars... leaving a hole in the high performance midsize sedan arena seems weird. Going from IS F to LS F is a big jump. If someone is going to fork over the money for a car like that, I'd have to think they'd be more apt to purchase a four door coupe anyway... similar to how Audi only offers RS7 here, and not RS6. It's already an emotional purchase - I'd rather go all the way and get the sexier model.

If there is a 5GS, I think you are spot on with the prices.
 

ssun30

Expert
Messages
3,524
Reactions
7,753
That ES pricing is way up there and the market will not respond well to it. Think about it, the ES200 is into (top trim) Camry price territory. And there's just no way a new entry-level ES can be more expensive than a well-equipped ES350. The ES needs to be cheap, unless the IS gets a LWB.
 

Gecko

Administrator
Messages
4,914
Reactions
11,856
That ES pricing is way up there and the market will not respond well to it. Think about it, the ES200 is into (top trim) Camry price territory. And there's just no way a new entry-level ES can be more expensive than a well-equipped ES350. The ES needs to be cheap, unless the IS gets a LWB.

Nobody in North America really buys a base $39k ES... most have transaction prices around $42-45k. If they do end up offering a base I4, then I think that will lower the base price a bit, but I do expect the new car to be a little more expensive as they try to elevate it a bit to compete against E Class and A6. Even then, they can still be a value leader.
 

ssun30

Expert
Messages
3,524
Reactions
7,753
Nobody in North America really buys a base $39k ES... most have transaction prices around $42-45k. If they do end up offering a base I4, then I think that will lower the base price a bit, but I do expect the new car to be a little more expensive as they try to elevate it a bit to compete against E Class and A6. Even then, they can still be a value leader.

Sorry for apparently ignoring the fact that the German competitors have elevated the price of their mid-size sedans. Over $50k for a base I4 5 Series/E-Class/A6 looks suicidal for a market that's rapidly moving away from sedans (think about it, the LS500 is "only" 40% more expensive while having V8 performance). The ES now undercuts them by over $10k while offering a V6. There's some room for the next ES to go up indeed.
 

Gecko

Administrator
Messages
4,914
Reactions
11,856
Sorry for apparently ignoring the fact that the German competitors have elevated the price of their mid-size sedans. Over $50k for a base I4 5 Series/E-Class/A6 looks suicidal for a market that's rapidly moving away from sedans (think about it, the LS500 is "only" 40% more expensive while having V8 performance). The ES now undercuts them by over $10k while offering a V6. There's some room for the next ES to go up indeed.

No worries at all... that is my point with how Lexus has an opportunity to succeed with both ES and GS. E Class and 5 Series are ~$65K+ USD with decent options these days, and that is for 4cyl E300 and 530i as you note. I think A6 is a little less expensive. Does a midsize luxury sedan really need to cost that much money? We saw Lexus make a value play with the new LS and I think they have another opportunity here.

ES as the de facto midsize sedan, $42-56k with 2.0T, V6, hybrid, luxury package, F Sport package, AWD optional, will be a ton of car for most people shopping in this segment. Lexus will probably put the 12" screen in it, HUD, LSS+, beautiful interior (think something between RX and LS), Mark Levinson option, probably panoramic roof, etc. I think it will hit all of the big touch points for shoppers while being $10-20k less than a comparably equipped E/5. Theoretically:

ES 300: 2.0T - base price around $40,895
ES 300h: Li-ion 4cylinder hybrid from Camry LE - base price around $42,595
ES 350/400: either new 3.0T V6 or 2GR-FKS 3.5L V6 - base price around $46,395
AWD: Add $1,850
F Sport package: Add $3,500 (Lexus could make AWD standard on F Sport - just a thought)
Luxury package: Add $5,865
Figure another $2-3k each for things like premium package, cold weather package, etc.

There are really no other cars that offer that type of value here right now, aside from maybe Genesis? Depending on how Lexus handles the ES, I don't know that I'd consider the Buick LaCross to still be a competitor 100%. A6 is coming to mind as the most direct competitor. I can see a loaded V6 ES going for somewhere around $54k... which would be a ton of car for that much money compared to E300/530i, unless you just have to have RWD.


Then you can have GS as a niche product with standard turbo V6, optional multi stage hybrid, GS F, ultra dramatic styling inside and out, top end tech:

GS 400: 3.0L turbo V6 - base price $63,895
GS 500h: multi-stage hybrid V6 - base price $68,895
GS F: 5.0L TT V8 - base price $85,395
F Sport Performance Package: Add $8k (active sway bars, TVD, rear wheel steer, etc)
Luxury package: Add $6k
Another $3-5k each for things like premium package, cold weather package, etc.


As a consumer shopping for something midsize, you have the option to get a E/5 quality car for $20k less (ES) or something really niche and special for the same amount of money in GS.
 

bogglo

Admirer
Messages
605
Reactions
811
No worries at all... that is my point with how Lexus has an opportunity to succeed with both ES and GS. E Class and 5 Series are ~$65K+ USD with decent options these days, and that is for 4cyl E300 and 530i as you note. I think A6 is a little less expensive. Does a midsize luxury sedan really need to cost that much money? We saw Lexus make a value play with the new LS and I think they have another opportunity here.

ES as the de facto midsize sedan, $42-56k with 2.0T, V6, hybrid, luxury package, F Sport package, AWD optional, will be a ton of car for most people shopping in this segment. Lexus will probably put the 12" screen in it, HUD, LSS+, beautiful interior (think something between RX and LS), Mark Levinson option, probably panoramic roof, etc. I think it will hit all of the big touch points for shoppers while being $10-20k less than a comparably equipped E/5. Theoretically:

ES 300: 2.0T - base price around $40,895
ES 300h: Li-ion 4cylinder hybrid from Camry LE - base price around $42,595
ES 350/400: either new 3.0T V6 or 2GR-FKS 3.5L V6 - base price around $46,395
AWD: Add $1,850
F Sport package: Add $3,500 (Lexus could make AWD standard on F Sport - just a thought)
Luxury package: Add $5,865
Figure another $2-3k each for things like premium package, cold weather package, etc.

There are really no other cars that offer that type of value here right now, aside from maybe Genesis? Depending on how Lexus handles the ES, I don't know that I'd consider the Buick LaCross to still be a competitor 100%. A6 is coming to mind as the most direct competitor. I can see a loaded V6 ES going for somewhere around $54k... which would be a ton of car for that much money compared to E300/530i, unless you just have to have RWD.


Then you can have GS as a niche product with standard turbo V6, optional multi stage hybrid, GS F, ultra dramatic styling inside and out, top end tech:

GS 400: 3.0L turbo V6 - base price $63,895
GS 500h: multi-stage hybrid V6 - base price $68,895
GS F: 5.0L TT V8 - base price $85,395
F Sport Performance Package: Add $8k (active sway bars, TVD, rear wheel steer, etc)
Luxury package: Add $6k
Another $3-5k each for things like premium package, cold weather package, etc.


As a consumer shopping for something midsize, you have the option to get a E/5 quality car for $20k less (ES) or something really niche and special for the same amount of money in GS.

That's why I said that price is so spot on. The LS might not take the crown from the S-class, but looking at the LC and LS interiors, Lexus can easily take the crown for the midsize sedan if they don't hold back. And they can throw in the Apple/Android carplay in the mix so every one can shot up. I personally would prefer a straight up screen mirroring option (that way the use is not limited to certain apps but all apps on the phone).
 

James

Founding Member
Messages
648
Reactions
1,168
Honestly I just bought a new GS 350 F Sport black on black and honestly this car is so sick. I mean it doesn't have the 0-60 of others but in manual mode and on Sport + the engine sounds so amazing! They have to bring this car back! I mean look at it! Love seeing it everyday in my garage and love driving it. 5th generation please!
 

Attachments

  • IMG_2463.JPG
    IMG_2463.JPG
    1,012.2 KB · Views: 18

spwolf

Expert
Messages
3,536
Reactions
3,452
Then you can have GS as a niche product with standard turbo V6, optional multi stage hybrid, GS F, ultra dramatic styling inside and out, top end tech:

GS 400: 3.0L turbo V6 - base price $63,895
GS 500h: multi-stage hybrid V6 - base price $68,895
GS F: 5.0L TT V8 - base price $85,395
F Sport Performance Package: Add $8k (active sway bars, TVD, rear wheel steer, etc)
Luxury package: Add $6k
Another $3-5k each for things like premium package, cold weather package, etc.


As a consumer shopping for something midsize, you have the option to get a E/5 quality car for $20k less (ES) or something really niche and special for the same amount of money in GS.

Why would it have no 2.0t and 3.5l NA engine options though?

Main thing for next GS is to make it stand out. Then sales will come.

But it will certainly offer range of options because most buyers dont care about hp, hence 2.0t in Germans selling so well. Offering 3.0l tt as base does not make it any cheaper, 2.0t would still likely be $3k-$5k cheaper vehicle.
 

ssun30

Expert
Messages
3,524
Reactions
7,753
Why would it have no 2.0t and 3.5l NA engine options though?

Main thing for next GS is to make it stand out. Then sales will come.

But it will certainly offer range of options because most buyers dont care about hp, hence 2.0t in Germans selling so well. Offering 3.0l tt as base does not make it any cheaper, 2.0t would still likely be $3k-$5k cheaper vehicle.

Its German competitors (A7/CLS/6GC) all start with six cylinders, even in "must have 2.0T market" like China and Germany. The 6GT is the only one offering a four cylinder gasoline but that's not the intended competitor.
 
Messages
8
Reactions
8
The GS needs to be more practical with foldable rear seats and good ground clearance. Much like the BMW 3/5-series GT versions. It also needs to be hybrid with seriously low fuel consumption and low emissions. Then it will be a hit on European markets.
Stop talking about F this and F that and twin-turbos and nonsense like that. It's not important to others than the pimply faced fanboys.
 

bogglo

Admirer
Messages
605
Reactions
811
The GS needs to be more practical with foldable rear seats and good ground clearance. Much like the BMW 3/5-series GT versions. It also needs to be hybrid with seriously low fuel consumption and low emissions. Then it will be a hit on European markets.
Stop talking about F this and F that and twin-turbos and nonsense like that. It's not important to others than the pimply faced fanboys.

Am sorry but the car you talking about is the ES. The GS as always been a performance focused sedan everybody knows that. And that's why everybody is talking about twinturbos and F this and F that.
 

mordecai

Follower
Messages
150
Reactions
409
If Lexus makes the GS a slightly downmarket sedan version of the LC, the same concept-car styling in sedan/liftback form. That's the only way that the GS will be differentiated from the ES.