maiaramdan

Expert
Messages
1,806
Reactions
1,416
Most men now chose SUV as DD. I happen to like cars built by women, namely the Acura NSX and the Acura ZDX.

Honestly I never chosen SUV over any Sedan, you can say I still have the 95 Land Cruiser and rarely use it and it was and maybe will be only high driving car I owned, never believed in the SUV, even I believe that pick up trucks can have some justice, now that said I never have a full size car in my garage, I need a mid to small luxury Sedan with today's length, in the past I used to have LS400, LS430, LS460, but all of them is just around 5M not as the new tall full size LS500 and that's exactly what keeps me buying the GS

So in my personal case, Lexus will lose a dedicated customer like me with this move, and you can multiply my case with really a lot of guys who really love the GS & IS handling and not believing in CUV craziness what so ever
 
Messages
12
Reactions
6
Not to stray too much off topic again but what would be the major differences between a 2018 GS 350 F-Sport and a 2019 ES F-Sport. Power is about the same, both have an adaptive suspension and an 8 speed transmission and styling is pretty close. Will the AWD or RWD of the GS make that much of a difference in handling to make it definitively better than the ES. The ES appears to have a bit better interior with the new technology additions and many LS type features. The 19 ES F-Sport appears to be a pretty close competitor to the 2018 GS 350 F-Sport especially considering the price points(even though we don't have pricing on the 2019 ES yet I assume the F-Sport will be upper 40's ) but the opinions of ES vs GS seem to be night and day which has me pretty confused. Looking to buy at the end of the year and really not seeing the major difference that makes the non F version GS that superior. I'm new to this so I might be missing something.
 
Last edited:

Levi

Expert
Messages
2,721
Reactions
3,144
Not to stray too much off topic again but what would be the major differences between a 2018 GS 350 F-Sport and a 2019 ES F-Sport. Power is about the same, both have an adaptive suspension and an 8 speed transmission and styling is pretty close. Will the AWD or RWD of the GS make that much of a difference in handling to make one it definitively better than the ES. The ES appears to have a bit better interior with the new technology additions and many LS type features. The 19 ES F-Sport appears to be a pretty close competitor to the 2018 GS 350 F-Sport especially considering the price points(even though we don't have pricing on the 2019 ES yet I assume the F-Sport will be upper 40's ) but the opinions of ES vs GS seem to be night and day which has me pretty confused. Looking to buy at the end of the year and really not seeing the major difference that makes the non F version GS that superior. I'm new to this so I might be missing something.


In real life every day road driving, there would be no difference. The difference will only be in your mind. But what is in you mind is just as important, otherwise there would be no team called "Marketing".
 

Gecko

Administrator
Messages
4,753
Reactions
11,388
Moderator note
I am sick of moving ES posts to the ES thread. This topic is for the GS - if you want to talk about the ES, go to the thread that's stickied to the top of the Lexus Lounge.

ZDUZ.gif
 

Levi

Expert
Messages
2,721
Reactions
3,144
Moderator note
I am sick of moving ES posts to the ES thread. This topic is for the GS - if you want to talk about the ES, go to the thread that's stickied to the top of the Lexus Lounge.

ZDUZ.gif

But in the ES thread they talk about GS. :laughing:
 

ssun30

Expert
Messages
3,345
Reactions
7,463
To be fair, after the ES launch there is such a dearth of new information that it becomes hard to have meaningful discussions on this forum so people start beating the dead horses again. I see it becoming a real problem now.
 

Rhambler

Fan
Messages
94
Reactions
32
17 pages and all it takes is one post as to why the GS is floundering: it lacks a decent engine and it performs poorly for a "performance sedan." It stayed stagnant for far too long with that engine while others innovated forward.

That really is it in my honest opinion. There's no missing magic formula or other reason beyond what I mentioned above, and I believe that.

If the GS, today, had a 360 HP engine, with Car and Driver and every other media outlet testing this thing to 60 in a legitimate 4 to 4.5 second (real time, not Lexus quoted times), it would sell a lot more.

Lexus does have that perceived reliability and with real numbers like that, I do think people--who might normally be swayed towards a German car--would consider this. At the very least, this car could be mentioned in the same breath as those...unlike the current one.

That's it: they lack engines for anything remotely related to the words "sport" or "fast," especially the word "fast."
 
Last edited:

Rhambler

Fan
Messages
94
Reactions
32
It would only be overrated if Lexus claimed a time of 4.5 seconds and not one legitimate media outlet could reproduce that.

And this is exactly what Lexus does and say about a lot of their engines: they overstate and overrate.

That's why I threw out that caveat about C&D et al. testing and used the word LEGITIMATE as I think that's very important as most people who buy these cars research enough to see through Lexus' charades.
 

bogglo

Admirer
Messages
591
Reactions
776
Quick question for Rhambler. Have Toyota or Lexus ever manufactured a car that you like? If yes, can you name the car please?
 

Levi

Expert
Messages
2,721
Reactions
3,144
It would only be overrated if Lexus claimed a time of 4.5 seconds and not one legitimate media outlet could reproduce that.

And this is exactly what Lexus does and say about a lot of their engines: they overstate and overrate.

That's why I threw out that caveat about C&D et al. testing and used the word LEGITIMATE as I think that's very important as most people who buy these cars research enough to see through Lexus' charades.


Are not German cars overrated by advertising E 63 and M5 while selling E 200d and 520s?


___________________________________________________________________


I am getting tired. I will now stop playing childish horsepower wars and 'bigger than' games. I do not work at TMC where I have to implement strategies using business tools (I wish I did), so I do not want to get to that low level of fanboy competition. There are other places to do that.


Anyway, until there is anything official, insider, leaked or evident, there is nothing more to discuss about the 5GS.
 
Last edited:

Rhambler

Fan
Messages
94
Reactions
32
Lexus isn’t playing either, that’s why the GS is floundering. It shouldn’t be a surprise, should it?

Can’t tell, though, if it’s willful neglect, lack of engine-development knowledge or poor management decisions that led us here. Or maybe it was a little bit of everything.
 

ssun30

Expert
Messages
3,345
Reactions
7,463
It would only be overrated if Lexus claimed a time of 4.5 seconds and not one legitimate media outlet could reproduce that.

And this is exactly what Lexus does and say about a lot of their engines: they overstate and overrate.

That's why I threw out that caveat about C&D et al. testing and used the word LEGITIMATE as I think that's very important as most people who buy these cars research enough to see through Lexus' charades.

As long as the manufacturer can repeatedly demonstrate that the engine can achieve the rated power within the testing environment they specified, they cannot be sued for false advertising. Different manufacturers rate power under different testing conditions. The SAE standard protocols are purely voluntary and manufacturers are not required to follow it. BMW rate their engines for hot-and-high climates, which results in ~10% underrating. Lexus is not required to rate their engines under the same conditions as BMW. A small portion of TMC engines are also rated for hot-and-high climates such as the truck-based GR and UR.

There is a difference between overrating acceleration performance and engine power. Lexus has historically underrated their FWD vehicles while their recent track record with RWD vehicles are poor. The reason why their RWD products fail to achieve the numbers they claim can be complicated, but it is unlikely the result of engine overrating because it is hard to cheat a dyno. It could just be the official numbers are tested under very ideal conditions.

But even if we take the official numbers out of the picture, Lexus RWD vehicles still seem to underperform compared to competitors with similar power-to-weight ratio. Again, the main culprit is unlikely the raw performance of the engine. One thing to note is that at similar power-to-weight ratio, a Lexus does not lag behind average competitors too much. Audis always have the benefit of the extra traction from Quattro. But the real outlier here is BMW. While everyone attribute BMW's impressive straight line speed to engine underrating, but few appreciate how much can be gained from a well-optimized engine map and transmission tuning. The BMW B48-ZF8HP50 powertrain has widely been considered the golden standard of powertrain calibration. No other manufacturer has been able to get so much potential out of the engine as BMW could.

Real world acceleration is quite different from dyno runs. The power/torque curve we get from manufacturers are steady-state operating points, but acceleration is all about transient performance: how quickly the engine can transit between different operating points. This is when powertrain calibration comes in. During hard acceleration, what the ECU does is following a path on the engine map that gives the greatest amount of power over the rev range, and if that path lines up perfectly with the transmission gear ratio, you can get the optimal acceleration. The fastest way to accelerate is of course keeping the engine at maximum power using an ideal CVT (no slip-induced power loss), but an ideal CVT doesn't exist.

But an engine map that is optimized for performance may not be optimal for efficiency. As an example, the BMW B48 is tuned to more aggressively retard the ignition timing and enrich the mixture to create a hotter exhaust, allowing the turbo to spool up much quicker than competitors (note: in Sport mode only). Effectively, the B48 has a software-based anti-lag system. This is how the engine has a sub-500ms turbo lag while the average competition still have over 1 second of lag. The tradeoff is pretty clear, the engine will have worse fuel efficiency and emissions in Sport mode but to BMW this is a worthy tradeoff. If you gave BMW the 2GR-FSE they could make a sub-5s IS350. TMC, on the other hand, will almost never tune the engine to sacrifice even one bit of efficiency for an extra 0.1s in a straight line (1LR being the sole exception but that's technically a Yamaha engine).

In the end, the difference in philosophy made all the difference. The IS200t/300 is notoriously known to bog in a start. The car almost does nothing during the first second and the turbo picks up very slowly, and the car ends up almost one second slower in 0-60 than the 330i, C300, and A4 45TFSI even though the four are pretty evenly matched in power-to-weight ratio. That's the price they have to pay by stuffing an efficiency-tuned engine in a sports sedan.

I would certainly like to see them changing their approach in the future, and play the hybridization card to their advantage.
 

sl0519

Follower
Messages
466
Reactions
870
The only GS that holds well against the competition is the 3.5L V6...but that was back then. Now the German two have already refreshed their lineup and the GS is still at its end of life cycle, so there is no surprise it's doing bad in terms of sales. The efficiency and the performance figure of the 2.0T is just disappointing, while the hybrid 450h brings too much weight and hinders the performance. And not to mention the history of the GS, the handling capability especially is always behind the Germans. One good product is not enough to be persuasive...it needs MANY iterations of outstanding products to build its reputation. Assume there is a new GS incoming, it needs to be a huge breakthrough in everyway, like the LC.
 

ssun30

Expert
Messages
3,345
Reactions
7,463
Here I would like to set an example for @Rhambler. While others on this forum label you as a troll or whatever, you did make a few valid points in the past. But it's the general internet forum attitude you bring here that is the problem. This forum expects high standards, not rants of ignorance and false claims that are opposite to the reality. Your continuous denial of facts and other people's opinions have rendered a lot of threads on this forum unreadable and no more meaningful discussion could be made. Nobody on this forum tried to crucify me or label me a troll because of my strong criticism of Toyota's electrification and SUV strategy, because I bring valid arguments to back my criticism and I openly accept other's counterpoints if they are convincing enough.

If you believe overrating vehicle performance is an issue, you should be preparing to sue Lexus, not ranting on the Internet. That "0-60 4.5s" on their front page is indeed a ticking time bomb that is only going to give Lexus trouble in the future. If you have the legal resources to reliably prove Lexus is making false advertising, you are doing everyone a favor. I'm serious, you should try it.
 
Last edited:

Rhambler

Fan
Messages
94
Reactions
32
I try to avoid talking about other posters; it just doesn't lead to good places, especially on open forums.

I may not agree with other posters and I will provide my counter-arguments and opinions, but I don't rant about other people and definitely won't insult them. No matter how much I may disagree with you, I do try and respect your thoughts and opinions.

You may not agree me, and that's fine--I don't expect everyone to--but I just call it as I see it.
 

Ian Schmidt

Moderator
Messages
2,339
Reactions
4,071
I like @Rhambler's posts when he's not complaining about drivetrains. We can do that ourselves, and if anyone reading this can't, go drive any Lexus 2.0T. Or German 2.0T. Or Detroit 2.0T. You'll have opinions.

On paper at least the Civic Type-R may be the only 2.0T in the industry that isn't terrible, but we'll see.

EDIT: Language.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Rhambler

Fan
Messages
94
Reactions
32
There's a reason why I keep discussing their drivetrains: it is the root of a lot of their problems in my opinion. I really believe that. This is especially true in the higher-echelon vehicles, like the LC, the LS, GS and F. It's crucial and they either didn't see it, realize it or cared about it.

I'm not trying to pour salt in the wound, but literally, they made some bad choices, knowingly or unknowingly, and it's manifesting itself now.