Official 5th Generation GS Thread: Returning with Hydrogen Power?

[maiaramdan]

So
No hope for new generation

 

[Joaquin Ruhi]

So
No hope for new generation

I wouldn't go that far. I'd say little hope. Or maybe it skips model years and comes back as something loosely-related, just as SC died in 2010 and kinda-sorta returned as LC in 2017.

 

[cougar126]

I think Lexus is keeping the GS for now because there is no equivalent in its lineup, they are working to implement an AWD powertrain on the new ES .

 

[Madi]

The All-New Crown just began it's sales with a very strong number 40,000 pre-order

It's on the all new GA-L platform RWD Mid-size Sedan and has the 3.5L multi-stage Hybrid, 2.5L 220hp Hybrid, and 2.0L Turbo

IMO as long as this car exists the GS will never discontinued

There would be a re-skinned GS of this !!

 

[krew]

Is the Future of the Lexus IS & Lexus GS in Doubt?

Maybe, maybe not.

View the original article post

 

[Sakura]

I think Lexus is keeping the GS for now because there is no equivalent in its lineup, they are working to implement an AWD powertrain on the new ES .

I think the Lexus GS is actually going to stay. Especially with this confirmation and the Toyota Crown already going on sale. The GS is essentially just a Toyota Crown reskin. They can make the GS easily.

Lastly - this is a quote from the article, "The Lexus GS has been an important part of the Lexus line-up since 1993 and we value its role as a sports sedan,"
If Lexus is keeping the GS around until the AWD Lexus ES shows up, then the quote above wouldn't make any sense. Because a AWD ES is not a sports sedan. If Lexus truly values the role of the "sports sedan", as they put it, they should know the Lexus ES AWD would not be a sports sedan. The thing is - the Lexus ES with AWD will never replace the GS with RWD/AWD. The Lexus GS will still have far superior handling capabilities and driving dynamics.

 

[Levi]

Well, I mentioned that in the Ford thread. IS and GS are too close similar and do not sell in high enough numbers.


What exactly is the purpose of IS and GS, and even RC? If this can be defined, probably a case for these cars can be made. Otherwise, they are done. See Ford and Infiniti.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

IS I think is a pretty good on-boarder. It's a better one if there's also a GS though

Also, it's less of a thing now, but what automaker can resist gunning for the 3 Series? Even though pretty much everyone agrees there are better options now.

 

[Sakura]

Well, I mentioned that in the Ford thread. IS and GS are too close similar and do not sell in high enough numbers.

What exactly is the purpose of IS and GS, and even RC? If this can be defined, probably a case for these cars can be made. Otherwise, they are done. See Ford and Infiniti.

Actually - the IS and GS is the equivalent of the 3 Series and 5 Series and C-Class and E-Class. Its the entry-level luxury sports to the luxury sports sedan segment. Lexus IS gets into the Lexus brand and then you upgrade to the Lexus GS. If you ask either IS/GS owner, they will not upgrade to the ES because they don't see it as an upgrade.
The Lexus IS sells fine. If you take a look at their 2014/2015 sales numbers, they were able to rack up similar sales numbers as their 2006 model with the same 10+ year old engine. Lexus IS sales always dip during the refresh years, similarity, during the 2G Lexus IS.

I have always thought - what's the point of the Lexus ES? Lexus is the only brand that has a car slotted in between. Example: The 3/5 Series has nothing slotted in between. Neither does the C/E Class. The only reason Toyota can't let go of the ES is that its a cash magnet.

Secondly - the Lexus IS is Lexus' entry-level sports sedan. Its car that lets you enter the brand of Lexus. If the Lexus axe the IS and the GS, they are 100% leaving the luxury segment for good. They will be abandoning the 3/5 Series and C/E Class segment. Leaving the Germans with all the market-share. Lexus is the only brand capable of catching the Germans. If they drop the IS/GS, they'll end where Acura is - a deep crap hole. No consumer will take them seriously with the ES sedan (Avalon re-skin) as their entry-level option.

Last note: The RC is basically the 4 Series and C-Class coupe competitor.
If Lexus drops the IS, GS, and RC they will be dropping out of the 3 Series, 4 Series, 5 Series, C-Class, C-Class Coupe, and E-Class competition. Also - lets not forget Audi A4 and S4 competition as well.
Without these cars, who would really consider Lexus a luxury brand?

 

[Rhambler]

I agree, Lexus needs to keep at least some parity in regards to model-to-model competition. The last thing Lexus wants or needs is to peel back the layers so much (because they can't compete) that they become an...Acura.

What Acura did was a self-fulfilling prophecy. Poor sales, leads to less models (because of poor sales), which leads to a drop in overall image, which leads to more poor sales, which leads to less models, and around and around we go. Lexus is peering down that barrel.

The solutions to a competitive and desirable sports-type sedan or-- even better--a four-door coupe'/sportsback, is quite apparent, at least to me and I've said it ad nauseum.

To me, though, it's just unforgivable that they couldn't predict this, foresee this, or even have some contingency plan (you know, a what if) in their pockets. Other manufacturer's can churn out engines as quickly as they redo models, not Lexus. Why they thought they could skate along with ancient power trains for as long as they have is just mind-boggling to me. You can't have a sports sedan without a good engine.

So, before you throw out a new model, Lexus, it better be the COMPLETE THING and have a legitimate, convincing engine, or it will be a sacrificial lamb. Just going through the motions with your name and some half-baked pistons under the hood just doesn't cut it anymore. Kia can produce a better engine for crying out loud. No excuses.

 

[mediumhot]

Well, I mentioned that in the Ford thread. IS and GS are too close similar and do not sell in high enough numbers.


What exactly is the purpose of IS and GS, and even RC? If this can be defined, probably a case for these cars can be made. Otherwise, they are done. See Ford and Infiniti.

What is there to define? Lexus better figure out why they can't move RWD product while others can, that's what they have to define.

 

[Sakura]

I agree, Lexus needs to keep at least some parity in regards to model-to-model competition. The last thing Lexus wants or needs is to peel back the layers so much (because they can't compete) that they become an...Acura.

What Acura did was a self-fulfilling prophecy. Poor sales, leads to less models (because of poor sales), which leads to a drop in overall image, which leads to more poor sales, which leads to less models, and around and around we go. Lexus is peering down that barrel.

The solutions to a competitive and desirable sports-type sedan or-- even better--a four-door coupe'/sportsback, is quite apparent, at least to me and I've said it ad nauseum.

To me, though, it's just unforgivable that they couldn't predict this, foresee this, or even have some contingency plan (you know, a what if) in their pockets. Other manufacturer's can churn out engines as quickly as they redo models, not Lexus. Why they thought they could skate along with ancient power trains for as long as they have is just mind-boggling to me. You can't have a sports sedan without a good engine.

So, before you throw out a new model, Lexus, it better be the COMPLETE THING and have a legitimate, convincing engine, or it will be a sacrificial lamb. Just going through the motions with your name and some half-baked pistons under the hood just doesn't cut it anymore. Kia can produce a better engine for crying out loud. No excuses.

I definitely agree with you on the first bit. Lexus needs to keep the model-to-model competition in order to stay relevant to the Germans. The reason Acura and Infiniti can't compete with the Germans is because they lack the product-line up. Lexus is the only Japanese brand truly capable of taking money from the Germans. If Lexus removes the IS/GS, they are folding and will literally be like what Acura is.

This is a reply to the text I have bold in your quote: The thing is - Toyota and other Japanese car companies, are insanely slow at releasing or updating engines. Its for a few reasons why they do this:
1) This has a lot to do with the conservative nature of Japan.
2) Its much more profitable to keep using older engines rather than develop new ones - especially if sales still stay high. Example: The 2014 3G Lexus IS sold the exact same number of cars, with the same 10 year old engine, as the 2006 2G Lexus IS. This is profits right here. The Lexus IS sales, ever since the 2G, always dip after refresh. It'll likely spike once incentives roll in for outgoing models and then it'll spike back up to 50K/units per year once new Gen arrives.
3) Toyota/Lexus doesn't focus on performance first - like say BMW or Infiniti. I always see Lexus a young Japanese Mercedes Benz, where they focus on the quality, smoothness, and comfort of the ride first.
4) Japanese car reliability. They know their old and much more proven engines will last longer than something freshly developed.

 

[Levi]

What Acura did was a self-fulfilling prophecy. Poor sales, leads to less models (because of poor sales), which leads to a drop in overall image, which leads to more poor sales, which leads to less models, and around and around we go. Lexus is peering down that barrel.

True, but you have skipped a phase Lexus goes through: half backed models, before no models at all. An this is even worse: not enough money spent to make a excellent product, but money spent that could have been used elsewhere. Even the not well selling Jaguar XF tries more than Lexus, with 2.0d and 5.0l V8 Supercahrged. Lexus updated the GS lineup too late.

I think it is nice to have a simple lineup, ala Ferrari, one car, one engine, one trim, no variations, also like the first Apple products, one iPhone, one iPad etc... But well even Apple now has several iPhones and iPads. Of course Lexus also needs to do the same. Before the 200t/300 and 300h models, Lexus in Europe has only 4 cars - not counting CUVs/SUVs (that is fine) but each only one engine: Ct 200h, IS 250, IS 220d, IS F, GS 450h, LS 600h. Nice clean small lineup, but same wise low sales. But a lineup with mediocre products is not better.

 

[Sakura]

True, but you have skipped a phase Lexus goes through: half backed models, before no models at all. An this is even worse: not enough money spent to make a excellent product, but money spent that could have been used elsewhere. Even the not well selling Jaguar XF tries more than Lexus, with 2.0d and 5.0l V8 Supercahrged. Lexus updated the GS lineup too late.

I think it is nice to have a simple lineup, ala Ferrari, one car, one engine, one trim, no variations, also like the first Apple products, one iPhone, one iPad etc... But well even Apple now has several iPhones and iPads. Of course Lexus also needs to do the same. Before the 200t/300 and 300h models, Lexus in Europe has only 4 cars - not counting CUVs/SUVs (that is fine) but each only one engine: Ct 200h, IS 250, IS 220d, IS F, GS 450h, LS 600h. Nice clean small lineup, but same wise low sales. But a lineup with mediocre products is not better.

Its not fair to call Lexus products "half-baked" because they offering high-performance engines in some models. That's sort-of-like saying: the Germans are producing "half-baked" products because they don't even last till 50K miles without problems. Or saying German products are "half-baked" because they tons of blank switches and poor cup-holders.

The problem wasn't that the Lexus GS updated too late nor the performance figures of it. I feel like the GS sales numbers can be blamed on these faults:
1) The Lexus ES. Why? The Lexus ES is cheaper and has more room than the Lexus GS. To the average consumer (which is the majority of car-buyers) its a no-brainer to buy a car that is cheaper and has more room. What the average consumer saw was that the Lexus ES is a cheaper Lexus GS. The average consumer wouldn't like pay more for the driving dynamics and RWD of the Lexus GS. I honestly believe - if Lexus product-planned better - they could have sold tons of Lexus GS if they canceled the Lexus ES long ago and made the Lexus GS cheaper.
2) Because the Lexus ES is cheaper and bigger - its easier to sell at dealers. Dealers will have an easier time pushing ES out the door than trying to BS their way into getting an average buyer to pay more for a GS.
3) The Lexus GS doesn't have enough badge prestige for majority of average consumers owners to want to buy one.

Lastly - why I don't think its the power delivery that's a huge factor: MB and BMW both offer I4 Turbos on their base level E-Class and 5 Series. I'll admit - the Lexus GS I4 Turbo is slower. But do you really think people that buy the Base engine for these luxury full-size cars care about the power? From a performance stand point - all three are slow. People aren't buying the Base Engine E-Class and Base Engine 5 Series to go less than a second faster than to 60 compared to the GS.

But Ferrari is a niche brand. They don't won't ever have a big line-up because they are a catering to a small demographic of people.

Business side of things - Toyota doesn't care about the European Market. Toyota's biggest market is North America and Asia - especially USA and China. This is why the new Lexus ES is designed for the Chinese Market - not the US-Market.

 

[Levi]

Business side of things - Toyota doesn't care about the European Market. Toyota's biggest market is North America and Asia - especially USA and China. This is why the new Lexus ES is designed for the Chinese Market - not the US-Market.

Toyota does not care about European market or has not been able to take hold on the European market? TMC is business, they would eagerly has Lexus have some share of the Germans, if they knew how.

 

[Sakura]

Toyota does not care about European market or has not been able to take hold on the European market? TMC is business, they would eagerly has Lexus have some share of the Germans, if they knew how.

Toyota does not care about the EU Market because they know they'll never take hold of the EU Market and it'll be a waste of time trying. The EU-Market is relatively small compared to North America and Asia - specifically USA and China. China is the hot market right now. So majority of businesses are focusing there - where the money is.

 

[mikeavelli]

Actually - the IS and GS is the equivalent of the 3 Series and 5 Series and C-Class and E-Class. Its the entry-level luxury sports to the luxury sports sedan segment. Lexus IS gets into the Lexus brand and then you upgrade to the Lexus GS. If you ask either IS/GS owner, they will not upgrade to the ES because they don't see it as an upgrade.
The Lexus IS sells fine. If you take a look at their 2014/2015 sales numbers, they were able to rack up similar sales numbers as their 2006 model with the same 10+ year old engine. Lexus IS sales always dip during the refresh years, similarity, during the 2G Lexus IS.

I have always thought - what's the point of the Lexus ES? Lexus is the only brand that has a car slotted in between. Example: The 3/5 Series has nothing slotted in between. Neither does the C/E Class. The only reason Toyota can't let go of the ES is that its a cash magnet.

Secondly - the Lexus IS is Lexus' entry-level sports sedan. Its car that lets you enter the brand of Lexus. If the Lexus axe the IS and the GS, they are 100% leaving the luxury segment for good. They will be abandoning the 3/5 Series and C/E Class segment. Leaving the Germans with all the market-share. Lexus is the only brand capable of catching the Germans. If they drop the IS/GS, they'll end where Acura is - a deep crap hole. No consumer will take them seriously with the ES sedan (Avalon re-skin) as their entry-level option.

Last note: The RC is basically the 4 Series and C-Class coupe competitor.
If Lexus drops the IS, GS, and RC they will be dropping out of the 3 Series, 4 Series, 5 Series, C-Class, C-Class Coupe, and E-Class competition. Also - lets not forget Audi A4 and S4 competition as well.
Without these cars, who would really consider Lexus a luxury brand?

Well the ES was aimed at the 3/C etc initially when it debuted in the USA, even offering a manual. Obviously those buyers didn't jump to an ES and the ES became really a baby LS, down to the two tone colors etc....They even pitched the 2nd gen as sporty and that didn't work either.

At this time Lexus Europe got the IS 200 which was the Toyota Altezza in Japan (1997). Lexus USA started asking for a true entry level sport sedan to battle the 3/C etc head on since the ES didn't do that. The success of the second generation GS also made dealers feel a vehicle slotted under it would work.

Thus we got the IS 300, which gained the 2JZ since dealer feedback was the I-4 in Altezza wasn't appropriate for the car (how times have changed) in the USA and the European I-6 was underpowered.

Thus Lexus had really two distinct lines GS/IS which were sporty and LS/ES which were not.

Fast forward and then the HS joins! A fifth sedan!

Fast forward to today where SUV's now dominate and Lexus has debuted a sportier ES while the GS continues on as the IS. The HS is gone and the LS is now also sporty.

Lexus obviously wants to streamline its sedan lineup but I just do not see a FWD ES making any ground in the market the GS occupies similar to how a FWD ES didn't make any ground where the IS currently lies. There seems to be no AWD coming fast.

That said with the ES going to Europe and the GS getting canned is simply not a good sign.

 

[mikeavelli]

Its not fair to call Lexus products "half-baked" because they offering high-performance engines in some models. That's sort-of-like saying: the Germans are producing "half-baked" products because they don't even last till 50K miles without problems. Or saying German products are "half-baked" because they tons of blank switches and poor cup-holders.

The problem wasn't that the Lexus GS updated too late nor the performance figures of it. I feel like the GS sales numbers can be blamed on these faults:
1) The Lexus ES. Why? The Lexus ES is cheaper and has more room than the Lexus GS. To the average consumer (which is the majority of car-buyers) its a no-brainer to buy a car that is cheaper and has more room. What the average consumer saw was that the Lexus ES is a cheaper Lexus GS. The average consumer wouldn't like pay more for the driving dynamics and RWD of the Lexus GS. I honestly believe - if Lexus product-planned better - they could have sold tons of Lexus GS if they canceled the Lexus ES long ago and made the Lexus GS cheaper.
2) Because the Lexus ES is cheaper and bigger - its easier to sell at dealers. Dealers will have an easier time pushing ES out the door than trying to BS their way into getting an average buyer to pay more for a GS.
3) The Lexus GS doesn't have enough badge prestige for majority of average consumers owners to want to buy one.

Lastly - why I don't think its the power delivery that's a huge factor: MB and BMW both offer I4 Turbos on their base level E-Class and 5 Series. I'll admit - the Lexus GS I4 Turbo is slower. But do you really think people that buy the Base engine for these luxury full-size cars care about the power? From a performance stand point - all three are slow. People aren't buying the Base Engine E-Class and Base Engine 5 Series to go less than a second faster than to 60 compared to the GS.

But Ferrari is a niche brand. They don't won't ever have a big line-up because they are a catering to a small demographic of people.

Business side of things - Toyota doesn't care about the European Market. Toyota's biggest market is North America and Asia - especially USA and China. This is why the new Lexus ES is designed for the Chinese Market - not the US-Market.

Nice post again. I think its not just the ES that hurt the GS but the current RX. In our household as soon as my wife saw the new RX she said it will replace her modified GS F-Sport at the time. For her (and likely most people) you now get a pretty equivalent interior, features and more room and to her more style in a SUV package. She loved her GS but when I suggest a GS F replacement she adamantly wanted a SUV.

I think the RX is so good it also is hurting GS/IS sales. If you really don't push the cars to the limits and just want a nice daily the RX F-Sport fits the bill.

 

[Sakura]

Well the ES was aimed at the 3/C etc initially when it debuted in the USA, even offering a manual. Obviously those buyers didn't jump to an ES and the ES became really a baby LS, down to the two tone colors etc....They even pitched the 2nd gen as sporty and that didn't work either.

At this time Lexus Europe got the IS 200 which was the Toyota Altezza in Japan (1997). Lexus USA started asking for a true entry level sport sedan to battle the 3/C etc head on since the ES didn't do that. The success of the second generation GS also made dealers feel a vehicle slotted under it would work.

Thus we got the IS 300, which gained the 2JZ since dealer feedback was the I-4 in Altezza wasn't appropriate for the car (how times have changed) in the USA and the European I-6 was underpowered.

Thus Lexus had really two distinct lines GS/IS which were sporty and LS/ES which were not.

Fast forward and then the HS joins! A fifth sedan!

Fast forward to today where SUV's now dominate and Lexus has debuted a sportier ES while the GS continues on as the IS. The HS is gone and the LS is now also sporty.

Lexus obviously wants to streamline its sedan lineup but I just do not see a FWD ES making any ground in the market the GS occupies similar to how a FWD ES didn't make any ground where the IS currently lies. There seems to be no AWD coming fast.

That said with the ES going to Europe and the GS getting canned is simply not a good sign.

Agreed on the agree I bold. +1.

I don't see a FWD ES ever replacing the GS or taking old GS consumers. I don't think the ES F-Sport, ES AWD, or F-Sport AWD ES will either. The Lexus ES isn't built to be sporty - its built to be a luxury sedan. I like your example of how the IS to the GS is like the ES to the LS. The mass majority of its core buyers are elder gentlemen, they will have to build the car mostly directed at this audience.

I think Lexus should have done what MB and BMW does. 3, 5, 7 and C, E, S. So Lexus should do IS, GS, LS. All they gotta do is make the GS cheaper.

Nice post again. I think its not just the ES that hurt the GS but the current RX. In our household as soon as my wife saw the new RX she said it will replace her modified GS F-Sport at the time. For her (and likely most people) you now get a pretty equivalent interior, features and more room and to her more style in a SUV package. She loved her GS but when I suggest a GS F replacement she adamantly wanted a SUV.

I think the RX is so good it also is hurting GS/IS sales. If you really don't push the cars to the limits and just want a nice daily the RX F-Sport fits the bill.

A good point! I totally forgot about the RX. Especially with the SUV craze going on in the USA right now - its not surprising something like the RX would harm GS sales. For an average consumer that doesn't care about driving dynamics and just want a good daily, the Lexus RX makes much more sense than the Lexus GS.

I would to add to your post as well. I think the Lexus NX is harming the Lexus IS sales in similar ways. The IS and NX are priced similar when loaded. I believe the NX is only a grand more at most but you get 360 Camera. For the average consumer here as well, the NX would probably be more worth it than the Lexus IS.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

I would to add to your post as well. I think the Lexus NX is harming the Lexus IS sales in similar ways. The IS and NX are priced similar when loaded. I believe the NX is only a grand more at most but you get 360 Camera. For the average consumer here as well, the NX would probably be more worth it than the Lexus IS.

While that's true, I think it's equally likely in the current market that if Lexus didn't have the NX and RX many of those customers would just go get a similar CUV from Acura or Ze Germans.