Official 5th Generation GS Thread: Returning with Hydrogen Power?

[Sakura]

While that's true, I think it's equally likely in the current market that if Lexus didn't have the NX and RX many of those customers would just go get a similar CUV from Acura or Ze Germans.

That's definitely true. The SUV craze is so intense right now that Lamborghini even made a SUV. The NX and RX is there to get that intense SUV market share for sure. Lexus is doubling down on SUVs too. They are going to add the UX and just trademarked LQ - which many believe is their high-end crossover model. The down side to all of this is - the IS, GS and maybe even LS (if the LQ comes out) will get the short-end of the stick.

Its just unfortunate that cars that are geared towards enthusiast tends to just sell less.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

Yeah, I love my LS500 a lot, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't following the LF-1/LQ developments closely.

 

[Tragic Bronson]

Its just unfortunate that cars that are geared towards enthusiast tends to just sell less.

I'll surmise, a lot of enthusiasts don't put Lexus high on their lists of luxury brands. I also consider the fact that many of these enthusiasts don't keep their cars for over 10 years, since a lot of them would get bored (Luxury car buyers can afford to buy a car more often than not).

 

[Sakura]

I'll surmise, a lot of enthusiasts don't put Lexus high on their lists of luxury brands. I also consider the fact that many of these enthusiasts don't keep their cars for over 10 years, since a lot of them would get bored (Luxury car buyers can afford to buy a car more often than not).

Car enthusiasts is a very general term - its also very broad. That's very true - there will be car enthusiasts that won't put Lexus high on their list or even consider Lexus. But the opposite is also true - there are car enthusiasts that would put Lexus high on their list. Example: car enthusiasts that have small kids, want something RWD, fun-to-drive and can take to the track on the weekends: Lexus IS350, IS-F, RC-F, and stuff. Also - probably the car enthusiasts that plan to keep their car a long-time.

The term is just too broad to be specific. There are car enthusiasts that are rich that only buy used 2nd hand cars. There are car enthusiasts that buy only new luxury cars. There are car enthusiasts that buy that one sports car and keep it forever.

 

[Levi]

Car enthusiasts is a very general term - its also very broad. That's very true - there will be car enthusiasts that won't put Lexus high on their list or even consider Lexus. But the opposite is also true - there are car enthusiasts that would put Lexus high on their list. Example: car enthusiasts that have small kids, want something RWD, fun-to-drive and can take to the track on the weekends: Lexus IS350, IS-F, RC-F, and stuff. Also - probably the car enthusiasts that plan to keep their car a long-time.

The term is just too broad to be specific. There are car enthusiasts that are rich that only buy used 2nd hand cars. There are car enthusiasts that buy only new luxury cars. There are car enthusiasts that buy that one sports car and keep it forever.

CE is a broad term, if you segment and categorize CE, which are already not many compared to "like having a nice car" and "need to get from A to B in 21st century", you will see that within CE there are also even smaller minorities, so carmakers will target the largest segment of CE. The main issue is that all carmakers want to target the largest segment, yet every market research comes up with different results and every carmaker will disagree with each other's interpretation of the results, so will customers. But CE can also take the blame, because more often than not, they car brand loyal, and even if they like some other brand's product, they would prefer their favorite brand to make the same. And this leads to brand dilution most of the time, so now p*ss when some marketing gang (PR) mentions "heritage" and staff like that. There is no more heritage left, maybe just random fragments.

One example:
USP Before Now
3 Series Sport Badge
C Class Comfort Badge
A4 Quattro Badge


Emotion is a result of factors, with all factors the same, emotion is a fake illusion.




PS: Why BBCode tables do not work?

 

[Tragic Bronson]

Car enthusiasts is a very general term - its also very broad. That's very true - there will be car enthusiasts that won't put Lexus high on their list or even consider Lexus. But the opposite is also true - there are car enthusiasts that would put Lexus high on their list. Example: car enthusiasts that have small kids, want something RWD, fun-to-drive and can take to the track on the weekends: Lexus IS350, IS-F, RC-F, and stuff. Also - probably the car enthusiasts that plan to keep their car a long-time

Of course there are Lexus enthusiasts (Gee, what website is this place?), just like there are Acura enthusiasts too. I'm saying that in general, from all the opinions and generalizations on forums and media, Lexus wouldn't be the brand that most enthusiasts think of in the luxury class, and its more like most think that the Europeans are the leaders in the luxury sport segment. Before the Giulia became available to the US, there weren't many Alfa Romeo fans because of their past history, but with a competent performing vehicle AND very enticing lease offers, the car has become an enthusiast darling.

But in terms of followings, I would say that BMW tends to have a lot more enthusiasts than most other luxury brands...just google Bimmerfest.

The term is just too broad to be specific. There are car enthusiasts that are rich that only buy used 2nd hand cars. There are car enthusiasts that buy only new luxury cars. There are car enthusiasts that buy that one sports car and keep it forever.

Yes, the term is very broad, and obviously everyone has different tastes. Some are super fanboys, while others could be brand loyal, but that wouldn't preclude them from liking a car from another brand.

 

[Sakura]

Of course there are Lexus enthusiasts (Gee, what website is this place?), just like there are Acura enthusiasts too. I'm saying that in general, from all the opinions and generalizations on forums and media, Lexus wouldn't be the brand that most enthusiasts think of in the luxury class, and its more like most think that the Europeans are the leaders in the luxury sport segment. Before the Giulia became available to the US, there weren't many Alfa Romeo fans because of their past history, but with a competent performing vehicle AND very enticing lease offers, the car has become an enthusiast darling.

But in terms of followings, I would say that BMW tends to have a lot more enthusiasts than most other luxury brands...just google Bimmerfest.

Yes, the term is very broad, and obviously everyone has different tastes. Some are super fanboys, while others could be brand loyal, but that wouldn't preclude them from liking a car from another brand.

I know there are Lexus and Acura enthusiasts. There is many types of car enthusiasts overall - was my point. There are car enthusiasts that buy Yugos, and you really have to be a car enthusiasts to buy an old Communist car.

I know about Bimmerfest/Bimmerpost, and etc... I actually post there from time-to-time. True. Bimmerfest/Bimmerpost is highly active and it could seem like they have a lot more enthusiasts than other luxury brands. That's if we compare luxury brand enthusiasts to other luxury brand enthusiasts; then BMW clearly is the winner.

However - I would believe - that if you factor out the "luxury brand" part of it and count Toyota with Lexus. I believe the Toyota/Lexus car enthusiasts scene is much larger than BMW. I also believe Nissan/Infiniti bunch together is much larger than BMW scene too.
This is based off of - the Japanese Tuner scene is huge and also the VIP scene is also huge.

 

[James]

I don’t mind the SUV craze but can Lexus add some power to the SUV? We need an F for sure and something quick. The SUVs look aggressive but aren’t truly aggressive.

 

[Tragic Bronson]

I know there are Lexus and Acura enthusiasts. There is many types of car enthusiasts overall - was my point. There are car enthusiasts that buy Yugos, and you really have to be a car enthusiasts to buy an old Communist car.

I know about Bimmerfest/Bimmerpost, and etc... I actually post there from time-to-time. True. Bimmerfest/Bimmerpost is highly active and it could seem like they have a lot more enthusiasts than other luxury brands. That's if we compare luxury brand enthusiasts to other luxury brand enthusiasts; then BMW clearly is the winner.

However - I would believe - that if you factor out the "luxury brand" part of it and count Toyota with Lexus. I believe the Toyota/Lexus car enthusiasts scene is much larger than BMW. I also believe Nissan/Infiniti bunch together is much larger than BMW scene too.
This is based off of - the Japanese Tuner scene is huge and also the VIP scene is also huge.

Oh definitely, a lot of the "tuner" VIP scene does consists of Lexus, albeit older ones more accessible to more younger buyers...IDK if I could say that the Toyota/Lexus car enthusiast scene is larger; Toyotafest is the largest one I know of, but yeah, each make and model has their own gatherings though many places, a general "Import" show is the norm. I'm just old now that I'm not a fan of "stance" and all that stuff popular with the younger enthusiasts today.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

I don’t mind the SUV craze but can Lexus add some power to the SUV? We need an F for sure and something quick. The SUVs look aggressive but aren’t truly aggressive.

The SUV craze is built on looking tough without actually being tough so in a way that works. But yeah, an RX F would be pretty killer.

 

[zeusus]

I'll surmise, a lot of enthusiasts don't put Lexus high on their lists of luxury brands. I also consider the fact that many of these enthusiasts don't keep their cars for over 10 years, since a lot of them would get bored (Luxury car buyers can afford to buy a car more often than not).

A nuanced topic that got generalized within two full sentences, you don't see that on the internet much.: unamused:

That really depends what an "enthusiast" is defined as, as well as what "luxury brand" is defined as.

But doesn't really matter, anybody that calls themselves an automotive enthusiast should likely understand that there are nuances and that every niche has their own bias.

Now if we're talking about the auto market in general, yes Lexus is a highly desired luxury brand that people aspire to. That is not a very nuanced discussion as it is a generally accepted fact, at least in the relative segment and price point.

 

[Tragic Bronson]

Now if we're talking about the auto market in general, yes Lexus is a highly desired luxury brand that people aspire to. That is not a very nuanced discussion as it is a generally accepted fact, at least in the relative segment and price point.

Aspire to? That's also subjective as well. Money no object, I'd be "desiring" Prancing Horses and Bulls, but to me, Lexus is a smart choice for luxury car buyers (of course, the LC is one of those vehicles that more people WANT than need); again, YMMV. I'll stop here because its OT.

 

[Levi]

I'll surmise, a lot of enthusiasts don't put Lexus high on their lists of luxury brands. I also consider the fact that many of these enthusiasts don't keep their cars for over 10 years, since a lot of them would get bored (Luxury car buyers can afford to buy a car more often than not).

Indeed true. Proof is here:

https://www.germancarforum.com/threads/poll-your-favorite-hi-end-two-door-coupe.58361/#post-890849

No mention or consideration of the LC, as if it never existed.

(Also not even of the aging but phenomenal GranTurismo.)

 

[Sakura]

Indeed true. Proof is here:

https://www.germancarforum.com/threads/poll-your-favorite-hi-end-two-door-coupe.58361/#post-890849

No mention or consideration of the LC, as if it never existed.

(Also not even of the aging but phenomenal GranTurismo.)

I'm sorry - but this forum isn't considered "proof". I would consider it bias proof.

This isn't a general forum of car enthusiasts, where all brands come to talk cars. Its literally states "GermanCarForum". So - its obvious majority of the answers won't be Japanese cars but rather German-based or Europeans. The polls didn't even have one Japanese car. I find that tons of German car enthusiasts are actually European car enthusiasts (includes Aston, Bentley, Alfa, and etc...)

Its pretty obvious Lexus won't be ranked high among German (European) car enthusiasts. Its just like how German (European) cars won't be rank high among the Japanese car enthusiasts crowd.

What if I start a poll on ClubLexus or LexusEnthusiasts, about everyone's favorite high-end coupe. What if these answers are skewed towards Lexus (because Lexus forums)?
That means: I can't use this as proof that German cars aren't ranked high among car enthusiasts. Its a one sided form - just like your link.

 

[spwolf]

I'm sorry - but this forum isn't considered "proof". I would consider it bias proof.

This isn't a general forum of car enthusiasts, where all brands come to talk cars. Its literally states "GermanCarForum". So - its obvious majority of the answers won't be Japanese cars but rather German-based or Europeans. The polls didn't even have one Japanese car. I find that tons of German car enthusiasts are actually European car enthusiasts (includes Aston, Bentley, Alfa, and etc...)

Its pretty obvious Lexus won't be ranked high among German (European) car enthusiasts. Its just like how German (European) cars won't be rank high among the Japanese car enthusiasts crowd.

What if I start a poll on ClubLexus or LexusEnthusiasts, about everyone's favorite high-end coupe. What if these answers are skewed towards Lexus (because Lexus forums)?
That means: I can't use this as proof that German cars aren't ranked high among car enthusiasts. Its a one sided form - just like your link.

yeah... I think people need to realize how small the number of sold AMG and M vehicles. Most of these enthusiasts buy smaller 2.0l engines, and it is really tough to call these cars Enthusiasts vehicles at that point.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

What if I start a poll on ClubLexus or LexusEnthusiasts, about everyone's favorite high-end coupe. What if these answers are skewed towards Lexus (because Lexus forums)?

On CL the Germans will still win. Here I think you'd actually get a pretty fair hearing. We ooh and aah over deserving non-Lexus cars in the Garage subform all the time.

 

[johnyb]

Nice post again. I think its not just the ES that hurt the GS but the current RX. In our household as soon as my wife saw the new RX she said it will replace her modified GS F-Sport at the time. For her (and likely most people) you now get a pretty equivalent interior, features and more room and to her more style in a SUV package. She loved her GS but when I suggest a GS F replacement she adamantly wanted a SUV.

I think the RX is so good it also is hurting GS/IS sales. If you really don't push the cars to the limits and just want a nice daily the RX F-Sport fits the bill.

Exactly, SUV is for women , but don't forget that the CARS are a Man's job !

 

[Levi]

Exactly, SUV is for women , but don't forget that the CARS are a Man's job !

Most men now chose SUV as DD. I happen to like cars built by women, namely the Acura NSX and the Acura ZDX.

 

[Sakura]

On CL the Germans will still win. Here I think you'd actually get a pretty fair hearing. We ooh and aah over deserving non-Lexus cars in the Garage subform all the time.

I will agree - on CL German will definitely win. I was more talking about an "if" though.

From my experience, on CL Car-Chat forums - majority (maybe 80% plus) hates Lexus and drools over the German brands. This is because a lot of the older Lexus members have moved onto German brands but still feel the need to stay on Lexus forums to have some confirmation bias that their switch to another brand is good.

 

[maiaramdan]

Its not fair to call Lexus products "half-baked" because they offering high-performance engines in some models. That's sort-of-like saying: the Germans are producing "half-baked" products because they don't even last till 50K miles without problems. Or saying German products are "half-baked" because they tons of blank switches and poor cup-holders.

The problem wasn't that the Lexus GS updated too late nor the performance figures of it. I feel like the GS sales numbers can be blamed on these faults:
1) The Lexus ES. Why? The Lexus ES is cheaper and has more room than the Lexus GS. To the average consumer (which is the majority of car-buyers) its a no-brainer to buy a car that is cheaper and has more room. What the average consumer saw was that the Lexus ES is a cheaper Lexus GS. The average consumer wouldn't like pay more for the driving dynamics and RWD of the Lexus GS. I honestly believe - if Lexus product-planned better - they could have sold tons of Lexus GS if they canceled the Lexus ES long ago and made the Lexus GS cheaper.
2) Because the Lexus ES is cheaper and bigger - its easier to sell at dealers. Dealers will have an easier time pushing ES out the door than trying to BS their way into getting an average buyer to pay more for a GS.
3) The Lexus GS doesn't have enough badge prestige for majority of average consumers owners to want to buy one.

Lastly - why I don't think its the power delivery that's a huge factor: MB and BMW both offer I4 Turbos on their base level E-Class and 5 Series. I'll admit - the Lexus GS I4 Turbo is slower. But do you really think people that buy the Base engine for these luxury full-size cars care about the power? From a performance stand point - all three are slow. People aren't buying the Base Engine E-Class and Base Engine 5 Series to go less than a second faster than to 60 compared to the GS.

But Ferrari is a niche brand. They don't won't ever have a big line-up because they are a catering to a small demographic of people.

Business side of things - Toyota doesn't care about the European Market. Toyota's biggest market is North America and Asia - especially USA and China. This is why the new Lexus ES is designed for the Chinese Market - not the US-Market.

That's exactly sir what I have been saying long time ago, honestly the ES not only killing the GS but also the IS, Crown, Avalon and Mark-X

So 1 car will destroy another 6
Why with God sake Toyota not putting the Avalon in the current ES market, I even thought that the Avalon is better all around than the ES and with rumors about killing the IS we start to hear the same about the Mark-X

This is as if they don't want to make cars anymore this is all crazy and I am really mad of the decision regarding sticking with the ES and killing the rest