Official 5th Generation GS Thread: Returning with Hydrogen Power?

[Levi]

There's a reason why I keep discussing their drivetrains: it is the root of a lot of their problems in my opinion. I really believe that. This is especially true in the higher-echelon vehicles, like the LC, the LS, GS and F. It's crucial and they either didn't see it, realize it or cared about it.

I'm not trying to pour salt in the wound, but literally, they made some bad choices, knowingly or unknowingly, and it's manifesting itself now.

Well, to be fair, Toyota's 2.8 D4D in the Hilux and Prado also could be more powerful, not for drag racing but for towing/load.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

I'm not trying to pour salt in the wound, but literally, they made some bad choices, knowingly or unknowingly, and it's manifesting itself now.

That hasn't changed in 10 years, it's probably not changing soon given everyone more or less agrees some type of EV is the future, and there's substantial evidence that consumers in general aren't that interested. The vast majority of cars sold are base-engine 2.0T types of things, even by BMW and Audi.

And the LC's problem by all accounts isn't that it lacks power, it's that it lacks cooling because Lexus didn't intend it to be a track car. The engine itself is fine.

 

[Rhambler]

There’s nothing wrong with 2.0 liter turbo engines. In fact that’s part of Lexus’ problem in that the competitor’s 2 liter can out perform Lexus’ V6s.

Lexus’ 2.0 liter engine is the worse of the whole lot.

So yes, I see that causal relationship, especially now in the golden age of increasing HP and fast cars. Lexus just missed the memo.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

Hahahaha, you're *always* on message. For the record I've experienced the various German 2.0Ts and found them just as awful as Lexus'. They're a bit faster, but the car feels like it's gonna shake apart at times doing it. At least Lexus doesn't do the start/stop thing, that makes it even worse.

 

[ssun30]

I don't see how the B48 is terrible. I tend to agree with the industry consensus that it is the best performing 2.0T out there especially when you get into Sport mode. Many of the other brand's 2.0Ts are almost undrivable because of how badly they bog, including the 8AR-FTS on the NX and RX I test drove. Maybe it's just that I'm too spoiled by the response of the 2GR. I would rather see Lexus come up with a 200kW class hybrid drivetrain if they couldn't build a drivable 2.0T Dynamic Force.

There’s nothing wrong with 2.0 liter turbo engines. In fact that’s part of Lexus’ problem in that the competitor’s 2 liter can out perform Lexus’ V6s.

Give me an example in which a 'compeitor's 2 litre' can out perform a Lexus V6 and by what metrics. Unless you are counting that meager 2.5 they used a few years back I don't see how the V6s are outperformed by 2 litres. Again you fail to understand that performance is not a single data point, and is not a result of one component.

Few turbocharged competitors are as drivable as a 2GR equipped Lexus. Yes they may be faster in some acceleration scenarios, but in general driving the lag is particularly frustrating compared to the 2GR that is always ready to deliver. Again, the only 2.0T that is both fast and drivable might be the B48. But that's not the problem of Lexus being uncompetitive but rather BMW having a very convincing package due to the tradeoff they made. Pit any competitor against a 30i BMW and it will be trashed as well. Do I want to see Lexus adopting the same approach as BMW? Yes. Is it the best approach? Maybe not.

Another example is Mazda's Skyactiv architecture. The 2.5 Skyactiv on paper lacks the pure power and torque figures but in reality it work wonders in conjunction with the Skyactiv 6AT gearbox. Mazda has absolutely mastered this powertrain combination. On the other hand the 2.0 has a mismatch between the engine mapping and the gear ratio. As a result the car is severely lacking torque when shifting from 3th to 4th. I drove on a 2.0 Mazda 3 in the mountain roads of Kauai and this unforunate mismatch meant the engine was either overspeeding in 3rd or losing power in 4th. It felt almost as sluggish as the crappy Auris I drove in New Zealand.

 

[Levi]

Those (including me) mentioning a GS revival as 4 door coupe. We have noticed that the new LS and new ES are already very coupe-ish without losing practicality. Any more coupe-like will not be significantly more stylish. Also, frameless door windows as on coupe, are only nice with windows down. Downside is that they tend to be noisier inside.

 

[Levi]

https://lexusenthusiast.com/forums/...vealed-could-it-be-related-to-5gs.3514/page-6


There we have our 5th gen GS 500h. Maybe Toyota has found a way how to execute the VAG strategy. You know the Q5 and Macan, Q7 and Cayenne are the same. If not for Audi stubbornness, the new A6 and A8 would be Panamera and Continental GT related.

 

[Gecko]

Even though Toyota is a company that is deeply steeped in tradition, the decision to keep cars like the Crown and Century always surprises me - especially with the elevation of Lexus in Japan over the last decade. How many Crowns do they sell globally and in what markets? How do those numbers stack up with the 4GS?

I'd rather see ToMoCo retire the Crown in favor of the GS and retire the Century in favor of a special edition LS. Even if in JDM, they call the car "Lexus Crown" for a generation or two, I just have a hard time seeing or accepting the death of the GS when they are willing to keep and invest in the Crown for what I know to be JDM-only. For LS, come up with a LWB version that has all of the Crown luxury features like wool seats and call it Lexus LS Century or something - I don't know. It just seems terribly inefficient and short sighted to me.

Its confusing to me because in some regards, Toyota is quick to make decisions about what models to cut and which ones to keep, but the Crown and Century are two I just don't really understand considering their limited distribution.

 

[peterharvey]

Even though Toyota is a company that is deeply steeped in tradition, the decision to keep cars like the Crown and Century always surprises me - especially with the elevation of Lexus in Japan over the last decade. How many Crowns do they sell globally and in what markets? How do those numbers stack up with the 4GS?

I'd rather see ToMoCo retire the Crown in favor of the GS and retire the Century in favor of a special edition LS.

The previous generation 2012-18 Toyota Crown in RHD thumped 82,701 units in its first full year of sales back in 2013 in Japan.
Two generations ago, the 2006-12 Crown in LHD achieved peak annual sales of 53,111 units in its first full year back in 2007 in China.
The current generation 2012-18 Crown in LHD only achieved peak annual sales of 37,455 in China, and just last year only.

The previous generation 2005-12 3GS peaked at some 33,457 units in its first full year in the US.
However, the current generation 2012-19 4GS with "No More Boring Cars Formula" only peaked at some 22k, representing a good 30% decline in sales, and it failed to even reach its low set monthly target of 2k/month.
The significant decline in 4GS sales occurred at a time when BMW were able to maintain 5 Series peak sales at 57k/year relative to its 2003-10 5th Gen E60/61 predecessor, while Mercedes actually significantly increased it's peak sales from 59k per year in the 2002-09 E Class to a class record of 69k+/year in the 2009-16 E Class!

Likewise, the new 5LS with the new No More Boring Cars Formula has a very slow start in the US, with just 908 units in May, below its already low set 1k/month target.

By comparison, the current generation S Class debuted with a thumping 25k units in its first full year; averaging over 2k/month.
The next generation S Class is barely 2 years away; due mid 2019 to give 5LS more headaches.

Traditionally, the LS is often released the year after the S Class, with the all new LS's outselling the all new S Classes, and indeed the previous generation of 2006-18 4LS debut with a gate crashing 35k in it first full year.

 

[mikeavelli]

Likewise, the new 5LS with the new No More Boring Cars Formula has a very slow start in the US, with just 908 units in May, below its already low set 1k/month target.

Traditionally, the LS is often released the year after the S Class, with the all new LS's outselling the all new S Classes, and indeed the previous generation of 2006-18 4LS debut with a gate crashing 35k in it first full year.

The LS with a 1k target is pretty aggressive for this class. Only the S Class and Model S sell at a higher clip.

Lexus simply let the LS go on too long with the LS while Mercedes has two generations of S-class. The 7 nor A8 come close in sales either. The S-class is for many reasons still the standard here.

 

[mikeavelli]

Those (including me) mentioning a GS revival as 4 door coupe. We have noticed that the new LS and new ES are already very coupe-ish without losing practicality. Any more coupe-like will not be significantly more stylish. Also, frameless door windows as on coupe, are only nice with windows down. Downside is that they tend to be noisier inside.

Gecko and I share some very similar thoughts that the new LS drives and has the interior almost like a GS/4 door coupe... Honestly it is so different from previous LS's its amazing. One must experience it.

 

[Rhambler]

I think that's part of the LS' problem in my opinion. They tried to make it look like a "four-door coupe," AKA Panamera, but without actually doing it. The look with no practicality. The worse of everything with the benefit of nothing and it was a mistake. In other words, it hobbled itself with the slight limitations of a four-door coupe (e.g., rear-seat room/headroom) but got none of the benefits of actually having a hatchback...

They should have just built a traditional three-box or actually have the guts to build a larger, more luxurious Panamera (with a sportsback/hatchback). And of course, that engine was a waste of a mistake. They should have devoted resources into a 4.0 V8 instead of wasting time and resources into that abomination of an engine.

In my opinion, had they had the guts to just turn the LS into a luxury-version of the Panamera, it would have been a worldwide success. It would have created a much-needed niche that truly would have separated itself from the S class. It could have catered to two crowds: the older, rich people who can't get in and out of SUVs, but like the practicality of a hatchback, and the younger crowd, who just likes the look with the added practicality.

In any case, Lexus does need an A7, Panamera, Mercedes 4 door GT fighter. But it must have a good engine and they're late as always.

 

[mikeavelli]

I think that's part of the LS' problem in my opinion. They tried to look like a "four-door coupe," AKA Panamera, but without actually doing it. The look with no practicality. The worse of everything with the benefit of nothing and it was a mistake.

They should have just built a traditional three-box or actually have the guts to build a larger, more luxurious Panamera (with a sportsback/hatchback). And of course, that engine was a waste of a mistake. They should have devoted resources into a 4.0 V8 instead of wasting time and resources into that abomination of an engine.

In my opinion, had they had the guts to just turn the LS into a luxury-version of the Panamera, it would have been a worldwide success. It would have created a much-needed niche that truly would have separated itself from the S class. It could have catered to two crowds: the older, rich people who can't get in and out of SUVs, but like the practicality of a hatchback, and the younger crowd, who just likes the look with the added practicality.

In any case, Lexus does need an A7, Panamera, Mercedes 4 door GT fighter. But it must have a good engine and they're late as always.

The LS trunk is still massive and the LS still has legroom. The big net loss was in headroom. So it is still practical for most since the average person's head won't come close to hitting the rear. The Panamera is cramped even more so unless you opt for the Executive LWB but it still seats only 4 people. So lets not get selective with what is practical.

Why should Lexus succumb to building a 3 box? Let them take the LS in a new direction. If they did a 3 box people would then complain "BLAH BORING yadda yadda". The current 7 was a flop from the gate in regards to sales and the A8 sells 4oo units a month. 3 box isn't a growing segment. The Tesla and Panamera and A7 even prove people want sportier looking flagships.

I completely agree there should be a V-8 at launch, even if its the old 5.0. Rumors of a new 4.0 V-8 continue on, it needs to come fast.

 

[Rhambler]

Could you imagine for a moment, a much larger, more luxurious Panamera? No one has done it yet. The LS 500 is practically already there.

Oh well, what could have been. I think it would have been a winner and would have outsold the current iteration of LS 500 by far.

 

[mikeavelli]

Could you imagine for a moment, a much larger, more luxurious Panamera? No one has done it yet. The LS 500 is practically already there.

Oh well, what could have been. I think it would have been a winner and would have outsold the current iteration of LS 500 by far.

I have thought of the LS being a hatch like the Panamera and offering more engine choices. It would surely have been fun or maybe taken things too far away from the LS.

It will be interesting to see how sales hold going into 2019 and the new A8/A7 arrive soon as well.

 

[peterharvey]

At first, I was concerned about Lexus's new No More Boring Car Formula, and creating a low center of gravity with front mid-mounted engine 5LS.
When I sat in the 5LS, it seems that both the cabin and the trunk had lost some 2" in vertical height.
The cabin is a bit narrow too.
Rear foot room is poor.
The 5LS's rear legroom is not capacious, but I think it is pretty decent, and a good 4" longer than my 4GS.

However, just as my low slung & swoopy 3GS achieved record sales for the GS line, I now suspect that despite the 5LS's low center of gravity design with front midengine, I am willing to bet that a very well styled or better styled 5LS would have continued LS's record sales - outselling the current generation S Class's debut of 25k units/year and 2k/month.

I don't think the sporty low center of gravity front midengine design really held 5LS's sales back; I suspect it was more due to the Infiniti-like rear 3/4 styling - which could be easily rectified with a major midlife facelift in a few years.

 

[mikeavelli]

However, just as my low slung & swoopy 3GS achieved record sales for the GS line, I now suspect that despite the 5LS's low center of gravity design with front midengine, I am willing to bet that a very well styled or better styled 5LS would have continued LS's record sales - outselling the current generation S Class's debut of 25k units/year and 2k/month.

I don't think the sporty low center of gravity front midengine design really held 5LS's sales back; I suspect it was more due to the Infiniti-like rear 3/4 styling - which could be easily rectified with a major midlife facelift in a few years.

The market has completely changed since 2005/2006 when the 4LS debuted. Whereas it was just the LS, S, 7 at the top of the heap and hardly anyone else competing you now have the A8 which is better, even cars like the CT-6 and Equus etc. Then you have big hitters like the Panamera and Model S. There just isn't enough pie to go around for Lexus to try to get the sales the LS used to get. In addition we have people moving to SUVs and leaving sedans.

Lexus knew they took a big risk with this big of a change with the LS as well with the styling and V6 power only etc. I think in a year they will know how good they made it or missed things.

Let us try to get this back to the GS. With the LS so big now with no SWB model there is room for a larger GS. A lighter, smaller GS with these engine choices seems a bit more appealing. Though at this point it is all wishful thinking.

 

[CIF]

Even though Toyota is a company that is deeply steeped in tradition, the decision to keep cars like the Crown and Century always surprises me - especially with the elevation of Lexus in Japan over the last decade. How many Crowns do they sell globally and in what markets? How do those numbers stack up with the 4GS?

I'd rather see ToMoCo retire the Crown in favor of the GS and retire the Century in favor of a special edition LS. Even if in JDM, they call the car "Lexus Crown" for a generation or two, I just have a hard time seeing or accepting the death of the GS when they are willing to keep and invest in the Crown for what I know to be JDM-only. For LS, come up with a LWB version that has all of the Crown luxury features like wool seats and call it Lexus LS Century or something - I don't know. It just seems terribly inefficient and short sighted to me.

Its confusing to me because in some regards, Toyota is quick to make decisions about what models to cut and which ones to keep, but the Crown and Century are two I just don't really understand considering their limited distribution.

The Century is a sacred model for Toyota. Don't expect it to disappear anytime soon. Sales numbers are basically irrelevant with the Century.

Toyota sells a ton of Crowns in Japan and a few neighboring Asian markets. The Crown remains quite popular for Japan. Also even though today the Crown is sold in limited markets, if you think about it the Crown is actually a closer competitor to the E Class and 5 Series than the GS ever was. There are more options, trims, and engine variants offered on the Crown than there ever were on the GS. The irony though is that the Crown is built primarily for the Japanese market, and is not meant as a global model. Yet the GS has always been a very close cousin to the Crown in terms of size and platform.

 

[Gecko]

I think that's part of the LS' problem in my opinion. They tried to make it look like a "four-door coupe," AKA Panamera, but without actually doing it. The look with no practicality. The worse of everything with the benefit of nothing and it was a mistake. In other words, it hobbled itself with the slight limitations of a four-door coupe (e.g., rear-seat room/headroom) but got none of the benefits of actually having a hatchback...

I very much agree with this. In trying to be everything, the car actually excels at nothing. But damn, it's pretty

It will be interesting to see how sales hold going into 2019 and the new A8/A7 arrive soon as well.

IMO, I doubt the A8 or A7 will have much of an impact on LS sales. The new A8 is so painfully bland looking and the A7 is a good bit smaller. Could take a few sales, but I don't think it'll be any meaningful volume. 7er refresh coming for 2019 also.

Lexus knew they took a big risk with this big of a change with the LS as well with the styling and V6 power only etc. I think in a year they will know how good they made it or missed things.

@Brooks2IS made this point, but year 2 will be very interesting for LS sales. With the 4LS soldiering on for a decade, there is a lot of pent up demand for a "new LS" from loyal buyers and a lot of those people will likely be flocking to the new model as soon as it's available. However, as we head into year 2 when the car has been on the market for a while - with new A8, A7, refreshed 7er - it'll be interesting to see sales numbers.

With all of this considered, I still think that the LS should have been the 5GS - a sporty(ier) 4 door coupe with a low roofline and maybe even a hatch. It would have made sense for the GS and allowed the LS to be a little wider, more comfortable, a little more upright, and to offer a V8. However, I do believe Lexus (either rightfully or wrongfully) thinks they have all of the ground covered between the new ES and LS without a need for GS.

 

[Levi]

Could you imagine for a moment, a much larger, more luxurious Panamera? No one has done it yet. The LS 500 is practically already there.

Oh well, what could have been. I think it would have been a winner and would have outsold the current iteration of LS 500 by far.

Bugatti had the Galiber, but it never made it. It was like a luxurious Panamera. Instead they made the useless Chiron. But I do not see any luxury in two box sedans. Having cold freezing air get inside the car when the trunk is open is very unpleasant. What makes fastbacks practical is access, not volume, unless you want to block the rear view. And anyone that wants "luxury" and "practicality" is better of with a SUV, like Bentayga or Culinan. They can even soft-road, whatever that is.