No V8 Engines for Future Lexus Models

[super51fan]

I will say this about the Supra but its about the whole engine topic. I don't under for the V35A-FTS they just didn't put more power in it and add it to the supra? Why go out and get a lame BMW motor and drop it in there.

I do think the TTV6 Hybrid is going to be a beast and it is my guess if the LS600 comes back that is what is going to be in there.

i think the TTV6 can have over 600hp.

If not the Supra, the V35a should be something remotely interesting. 443 lb/ft at 1600 rpm could be a monster with the right transmission tuning.

To add to that, they don't even have an SUV with the V35a yet at a time when other manufacturers have several 500hp SUVs.

 

[mikeavelli]

Y'all are spreading so much misinformation on the GR Supra lmfao.

Whats frustrating about that is the it is only in the LS. I know it is supposed to be other models but I will believe that when I see it. Other companies put their halo motors, although detuned or tuned differently in many other cars. Mercedes uses the TT V8 in all their AMG 63 models, GM puts their V8s in everything from the Corvette to their creepy white vans, and even Ford uses the 3.5 TT V6 from the Ford GT in station wagons and police cars.

Good point. Let us look at the past.

SC 400/LS 400 debuts with V-8. GS 300 comes a couple of years later as I-6 only. GS 300 never sold well.

GS 400 got the 4.0 V-8 with dual VVTi. It transformed the car (I still don't understand why this recipe wasn't replicated over and over)
GS 400 at the time actually made 10 more hp than the LS 400. The LS 400 at the time also was swift. SC 400 also shared this engine. SC 300/GS 300 share engine.

LS 430 debuts with new 4.3 V-8 and GS 400 becomes GS 430 and uses the same engine. Though in a year or two this is very outdated. But at least it is shared. The new SC 430 shares this engine. There is no SC 300 option.

LS 460 debuts with new 4.6. GS 430 used for one year. GS 450h becomes top car for a year or two. Then we get a GS 460 but its down 38hp. The GS 460 was a complete dud. SC 430 is never got this engine. SC 430 is canceled.

The LS 460 lives for 12 years. The new GS debuts in 2012 with a V-6 or V-6 hybrid with better MPG but no power bump. No V-8.

GS F debuts sharing 5.0 from RC F. At this point it having 470hp or so is completely outdated compared to the competition. This should have been a GS 500 tbh.

LS 500 debuts as a V-6tt only. No V-8 option. LS doesn't sell well. This engine is also not used in the GS. GS gets no engine update.

LC 500 debuts with 5.0 V-8 from RC F/GS F. Not an optional engine in the LS.

GS is canceled.

LS doesn't sell with a V-6tt unit. LC isn't selling well. Both are the top of the line products and the only engine they share is their hybrid motor which no one buys.

Really really odd strategy. Also its telling the LS 500 is called a 500 making only 416hp when their own LC 500 is called 500 with a true 5.0 V-8 making 471hp.

Now being in wish land, imagine this;

GS/LC/LS sharing hybrid motor
GS/LC/LS sharing 3.5tt V-6 as base motor
GS/LC/LS sharing 5.0 V-8 as optional motor

OR
GS/LC/LS/LQ debuts new rumored 4.0 V-8 and 4.0 V-8 turbo.

 

[super51fan]

Good point. Let us look at the past.

SC 400/LS 400 debuts with V-8. GS 300 comes a couple of years later as I-6 only. GS 300 never sold well.

GS 400 got the 4.0 V-8 with dual VVTi. It transformed the car (I still don't understand why this recipe wasn't replicated over and over)
GS 400 at the time actually made 10 more hp than the LS 400. The LS 400 at the time also was swift. SC 400 also shared this engine. SC 300/GS 300 share engine.

LS 430 debuts with new 4.3 V-8 and GS 400 becomes GS 430 and uses the same engine. Though in a year or two this is very outdated. But at least it is shared. The new SC 430 shares this engine. There is no SC 300 option.

LS 460 debuts with new 4.6. GS 430 used for one year. GS 450h becomes top car for a year or two. Then we get a GS 460 but its down 38hp. The GS 460 was a complete dud. SC 430 is never got this engine. SC 430 is canceled.

The LS 460 lives for 12 years. The new GS debuts in 2012 with a V-6 or V-6 hybrid with better MPG but no power bump. No V-8.

GS F debuts sharing 5.0 from RC F. At this point it having 470hp or so is completely outdated compared to the competition. This should have been a GS 500 tbh.

LS 500 debuts as a V-6tt only. No V-8 option. LS doesn't sell well. This engine is also not used in the GS. GS gets no engine update.

LC 500 debuts with 5.0 V-8 from RC F/GS F. Not an optional engine in the LS.

GS is canceled.

LS doesn't sell with a V-6tt unit. LC isn't selling well. Both are the top of the line products and the only engine they share is their hybrid motor which no one buys.

Really really odd strategy. Also its telling the LS 500 is called a 500 making only 416hp when their own LC 500 is called 500 with a true 5.0 V-8 making 471hp.

Now being in wish land, imagine this;

GS/LC/LS sharing hybrid motor
GS/LC/LS sharing 3.5tt V-6 as base motor
GS/LC/LS sharing 5.0 V-8 as optional motor

OR
GS/LC/LS/LQ debuts new rumored 4.0 V-8 and 4.0 V-8 turbo.

Gone are the days that a motor exists at one power level. The VR30 is a good example of this since it has 300hp and 400hp variants with little mechanical differences between them.

So an alternative plan without the V8 could look something like this for upper range cars:

414hp 3.5TT as base trim(Top trim for entry level cars, mid trim for mid level vehicles)
~500hp 3.5TT mid tier (Top trim for mid level vehicles)
~600hp 3.5TT Hybrid as top tier (F/GRMN halo cars)

This formula allows them to have several levels of performance without much change in economies of scale since they all use the same motor.

 

[Gecko]

I think 500hp out of the V35A is doable, but the realm of 600hp, even with a hybrid, seems a bit silly to me, unless you're talking about a plugin like Toyota's Prime. This is still Toyota, who is conservative and we know that reliability and durability are going to be their first priorities with any production motor. I'm sure the engine's limits are higher than 416hp, but I don't think we should be expecting much more than 475-500hp at the top end. From what I hear, V35A-FTS + hybrid is 450hp and 500+ lb-ft of torque.

I think the speculation and hope for more horsepower - even in the context of this news about V8s - comes from a place of hope and wanting to believe Lexus is different from who they have become over the last decade. My .02 is that Lexus has shown us very clearly that they do not care about performance cars, so the reality of 500 and 600hp applications is probably just not realistic at all. Lexus has had every chance to support the F brand and it failed. They could have put a V8 into the LS and didn't. They had the LC F ready and cancelled it. The core of their lineup is FWD, platform engineered Toyota products with powertrains that are "good enough."

The piece of Lexus that once cared about performance or even "perfection" is long gone.

 

[super51fan]

I think 500hp out of the V35A is doable, but the realm of 600, even with a hybrid, seems a bit silly to me, unless you're talking about a plugin like Toyota's Prime. This is still Toyota, who is conservative and we know that reliability and durability are going to be their first priorities with any production motor. I'm sure the limits are higher than 416hp, but I don't think we should be expecting much more than 475-500hp. Part of the problem is that we've only seen the V35A in the LS so far, so it's hard to judge the motor's capabilities beyond that implementation.

From what I hear, V35A-FTS + hybrid is 450hp and 500+ lb-ft of torque.

Plugin was what I was referring to which adds an additional 100hp and 100lb-ft. Not that I think it will happen, just that they could do that with current powertrains if they wanted an LC-F without a new V8.

Also I think in general it is safe to assume there will be multiple configurations of the motor depending on application. Passenger cars will probably have a smoother powerband where as trucks and BOF SUVs will have a torque-ier powerband for towing.

 

[Levi]

414hp 3.5TT as base trim(Top trim for entry level cars, mid trim for mid level vehicles)
~500hp 3.5TT mid tier (Top trim for mid level vehicles)
~600hp 3.5TT Hybrid as top tier (F/GRMN halo cars)

This formula allows them to have several levels of performance without much change in economies of scale since they all use the same motor.

That is what Maserati is going to do with V6.

Maserati Nettuno V6
angle: 90°
displacement: 3.0 l
weight: < 220 kg
tech: dry sump, pre-chamber combustion, twin spark-plugs
redline: 8.000 rpm
power: 630 PS @ 7.500 rpm
torque: 730 Nm @ 3.000-5.500 rpm
specific power output: 210 PS/l
firing order: 1-6-3-4-2-5

(Plugin?)Hybrid version will make over 700 PS. Should come in 2022 in new Quattroporte and Granturismo.

 

[super51fan]

That is what Maserati is going to do with V6.

Maserati Nettuno V6
angle: 90°
displacement: 3.0 l
weight: < 220 kg
tech: dry sump, pre-chamber combustion, twin spark-plugs
redline: 8.000 rpm
power: 630 PS @ 7.500 rpm
torque: 730 Nm @ 3.000-5.500 rpm
specific power output: 210 PS/l
firing order: 1-6-3-4-2-5

(Plugin?)Hybrid version will make over 700 PS. Should come in 2022 in new Quattroporte and Granturismo.

I am most definitely sure they could do the same if they wanted to, but the "they could do X and Y if they wanted to" narrative with Lexus is getting rather old.

 

[Mk4UmHa]

Lexus Toyota is always too late to the game on timing.

 

[James]

On a side note where has Carmaker1 been? I miss his extremely detailed and behind the scenes knowledge that he brings to the table that are just excellent posts.

 

[ssun30]

On a side note where has Carmaker1 been? I miss his extremely detailed and behind the scenes knowledge that he brings to the table that are just excellent posts.

He has been working at Ford for a while. So he probably doesn't have the latest insider info about TMC any more.

 

[meth.ix]

There is an upcoming GRMN Supra, which is a more powerful trim of the MK5 (also rumoured to come in manual). Maybe a performance-tuned V35A could be in it?

I know I shouldn't be talking about the Supra here but I couldn't help mentioning it 😁

 

[Gecko]

On a side note where has Carmaker1 been? I miss his extremely detailed and behind the scenes knowledge that he brings to the table that are just excellent posts.

He has been working at Ford for a while. So he probably doesn't have the latest insider info about TMC any more.

We had some members who chose to be quite negative towards him, so he has made the decision to post considerably less if it all. His information still comes from the same places, but due to how he was treated, he decided to withdrawal.

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

There is an upcoming GRMN Supra, which is a more powerful trim of the MK5 (also rumoured to come in manual). Maybe a performance-tuned V35A could be in it?

I know I shouldn't be talking about the Supra here but I couldn't help mentioning it 😁

It's going to have either a high-strung B58 or the S58, but it's looking like to be very much the latter. A70TTR kindly told us that Tada-san was able to convince BMW to hand over the S58 engine to Toyota despite BMW's behest of doing so. I'm not sure how the hell Tada-san was able to pull it off and claw the S58 from BMW's grasp but he did it LOL.

Tada-san also seems to have a thing for dual-clutches and was apparently able to convince BMW to give Toyota their 7-speed DCT as well. I'm a little apprehensive about this because while the 7-speed is an extremely great unit when you're pushing the car, it does have a tendency to be really janky around town and I have heard of the transmission having some minor reliability issues as well, nothing that Toyota couldn't solve though. In comparison to BMW's 7-speed DCT, the ZF 8-speed torque converter automatic is bombproof. A manual is also 100% coming because every single Toyota GRMN product has had a manual (with most GRMN products being manual only). A manual should also arrive for other GR Supra models thanks to great sales numbers and the vocal majority who have been clamoring for one since people found out the GR Supra wasn't coming out with a manual.

 

[Joaquin Ruhi]

We had some members who chose to be quite negative towards him, so he has made the decision to post considerably less if it all. His information still comes from the same places, but due to how he was treated, he decided to withdrawal.

A real shame. I've learned tons of information from him.

 

[James]

A real shame. I've learned tons of information from him.

Yeah I was about to say the exact same thing that really sucks. Sorry for the off-topic question just was curious as I hadn't seen him around here lately.

 

[mikeavelli]

Gone are the days that a motor exists at one power level. The VR30 is a good example of this since it has 300hp and 400hp variants with little mechanical differences between them.

So an alternative plan without the V8 could look something like this for upper range cars:

414hp 3.5TT as base trim(Top trim for entry level cars, mid trim for mid level vehicles)
~500hp 3.5TT mid tier (Top trim for mid level vehicles)
~600hp 3.5TT Hybrid as top tier (F/GRMN halo cars)

This formula allows them to have several levels of performance without much change in economies of scale since they all use the same motor.

True, it could be done. But I have doubts since that would mean keeping the engine more open source no? Its clear they don't want tuners, tuning the cars. Note the 2020 and 2021 Supra engine changes for the power gains and a completely different I-4 as the entry level car. Instead of different tunes for the I-6.

That is what Maserati is going to do with V6.

Maserati Nettuno V6
angle: 90°
displacement: 3.0 l
weight: < 220 kg
tech: dry sump, pre-chamber combustion, twin spark-plugs
redline: 8.000 rpm
power: 630 PS @ 7.500 rpm
torque: 730 Nm @ 3.000-5.500 rpm
specific power output: 210 PS/l
firing order: 1-6-3-4-2-5

(Plugin?)Hybrid version will make over 700 PS. Should come in 2022 in new Quattroporte and Granturismo.

And they are taking heat no more V-8. They just dropped the Ferrari V-8 in the Trofeo Levante and now Ghilbi and Quattroporte. All to be replaced with this new V-6. It surely won't sound the same even if this is a better engine. But I guess if even the Ford GT can do it, then surely Maserati.

 

[super51fan]

True, it could be done. But I have doubts since that would mean keeping the engine more open source no? Its clear they don't want tuners, tuning the cars. Note the 2020 and 2021 Supra engine changes for the power gains and a completely different I-4 as the entry level car. Instead of different tunes for the I-6.

Having multiple variations of the same motor doesn't make the ecu more open source. Encryption doesn't care what is it protecting, whether it is tune A, B,or C. I am unclear what youre referring to here.

In regards to the B58, I think that is a great example of 2 variations of the same motor to suit different goals and power levels. Think of the B58C in the 2020 Supra as a B58-FTS per say, and the B58D in the 2021 Supra as a B58-GTS. The B58C suits mid level performance for efficiency and smoothness in cars like the 540i and X5 40i, where as the B58D suits M-lite models tuned more aggressively in models like the M340i.

Although different, they are still the same motors that benefit from the same economies of scale. Their head castings are different obviously, but the bottom end, accessories, valve trains, intake tract, and ECU (albeit with different software) are all the same. This is exactly the thinking I was referring to above with a 500hp V35a being slightly different than the current V35a but still sharing most of the same parts aka costs.

 

[super51fan]

There is an upcoming GRMN Supra, which is a more powerful trim of the MK5 (also rumoured to come in manual). Maybe a performance-tuned V35A could be in it?

I know I shouldn't be talking about the Supra here but I couldn't help mentioning it 😁

I think that would be the best path for the Supra. The GRMN Supra gets a toyota motor that brings proper attention to both Toyota and GR, and "heritage" is preserved with the GR Supra since it will still have an inline 6.

Also, because it is Toyota's own motor they won't be limited to 200 models or whatever low number ///M GmbH (which is almost an entirely separate entity from BMW) lets them use.

It doesn't even need to overstep the LC500 in power to make this happen and still perform well. I think of the AMG GT when it comes to this since it doesn't have more power than other AMG 63 models but is an incredible sports car because of chassis engineering. This allows the LC500 to still remain the halo car even without a TT V8 and allows the Supra's incredible chassis to engineering to perform well without big power figures. This is no different than the SC and Supra Turbo with the Lexus halo car still getting a equitable power figures while the Supra can be the sports car.

 

[Gecko]

Last request: Supra talk goes to the Supra thread. This thread is for Lexus/V8 discussion.

 

[Levi]

True, it could be done. But I have doubts since that would mean keeping the engine more open source no? Its clear they don't want tuners, tuning the cars. Note the 2020 and 2021 Supra engine changes for the power gains and a completely different I-4 as the entry level car. Instead of different tunes for the I-6.





And they are taking heat no more V-8. They just dropped the Ferrari V-8 in the Trofeo Levante and now Ghilbi and Quattroporte. All to be replaced with this new V-6. It surely won't sound the same even if this is a better engine. But I guess if even the Ford GT can do it, then surely Maserati.

I wouldn't worry about sound. Maserati makes the best sounding TTV6, it is not even the best V6.