internalaudit

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I'm kind of curious if there's another shoe waiting to drop there for some reason, because motors are 100+ year old tech at this point and it should be well known how to make them last. There definitely are more reports of Teslas having the drive unit die than I would expect.
With EM bent on beating the NSX and other muscle cars with his Performance M3, I'm sure its motors will not last as long as the typical well-designed motors lol. There's been a lot of OEM like Continental, GNK, BorgWarner coming up with their modular drive units.

Breaking down at 7k miles is inexcusable if it's suppose to be rock solid reliable.
 

internalaudit

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No need to discuss about phone batteries since their becoming solid State starting next year
Didn't know this. Will the next latest and greatest iPhone have SSB? My wife was thinking of getting the 11 Pro Max 64 GB (because we need to save for next vehicle), but I guess she can wait until next year if SSB will be in the next iPhone iteration.

Sony's are also great but somehow they are not marketed in North America as much.
 

flexus

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Didn't know this. Will the next latest and greatest iPhone have SSB? My wife was thinking of getting the 11 Pro Max 64 GB (because we need to save for next vehicle), but I guess she can wait until next year if SSB will be in the next iPhone iteration.

Sony's are also great but somehow they are not marketed in North America as much.
It's up to Apple. Two Japanese companies commence production next year. I think Sony will get it
 

internalaudit

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It's up to Apple. Two Japanese companies commence production next year. I think Sony will get it
Any links besides this? After all, Sony took Goodenough's lithium ion battery breakthrough to commercial production. It should happen once again after three decades :)
 

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ssun30

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I'm pretty surprised to see Panasonic-Tesla is now only at 250Wh/kg with their 2170 NCM811 cells used in the Model 3. I thought they were at 300Wh/kg already. So all this time this 18-24 month generation lead over the rest is just my imagination. The actual gap is more like 6 months vs. their nearest competitor CATL, who also started mass production of 250Wh/kg NCM811 cells early this year with 300Wh/kg cells coming early next year.

@internalaudit I know you've been reading a lot (maybe too much) about battery technologies recently. But do not have your expectations too high. I've been to many EV conferences this year, and the concensus among the academia and the industry is 500Wh/kg SSBs (for automotive applications, not consumer electronics) won't be commercialized until 2025. Small-scale experimental products could come in 2022 but just maybe. And I can guarantee you these people are smarter and better informed than reporters from insideev or whatever.

There's no genius inventor or revolutionary start-up who will commercialize a wonder battery to increase EV range by 100% in five years. Modern science and technology doesn't work like that. I used to work in semiconductors before diversifying into EV, and the semiconductor industry is known for its break-neck pace of innovation. Even there the lab-to-shelf time is well over a decade, and industries that value safety and reliability like automobile have much longer cycles guaranteed.
 

internalaudit

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I'm pretty surprised to see Panasonic-Tesla is now only at 250Wh/kg with their 2170 NCM811 cells used in the Model 3. I thought they were at 300Wh/kg already. So all this time this 18-24 month generation lead over the rest is just my imagination. The actual gap is more like 6 months vs. their nearest competitor CATL, who also started mass production of 250Wh/kg NCM811 cells early this year with 300Wh/kg cells coming early next year.

@internalaudit I know you've been reading a lot (maybe too much) about battery technologies recently. But do not have your expectations too high. I've been to many EV conferences this year, and the concensus among the academia and the industry is 500Wh/kg SSBs (for automotive applications, not consumer electronics) won't be commercialized until 2025. Small-scale experimental products could come in 2022 but just maybe. And I can guarantee you these people are smarter and better informed than reporters from insideev or whatever.

There's no genius inventor or revolutionary start-up who will commercialize a wonder battery to increase EV range by 100% in five years. Modern science and technology doesn't work like that. I used to work in semiconductors before diversifying into EV, and the semiconductor industry is known for its break-neck pace of innovation. Even there the lab-to-shelf time is well over a decade, and industries that value safety and reliability like automobile have much longer cycles guaranteed.
Good to know. I don't have my expectations set too high and I am more concerned about / anxious for upcoming battery technologies for longevity and safety and would be content with a 350 mile range outside of winter.

I think you are underestimating and discounting the news and papers surrounding Goodenough/Braga/Dahn/Tesla and with all due respect, just because your Spidey sense tells you nothing is in the works, doesn't mean it is so since you now work on EVs in particular but don't seem to specialize in battery chemistry any longer.

Blue Solutions does have a commercialized LMP solid state battery so although may be not as energy sense, this still goes to show that SSB in some form is already in use.

Of course I am no holding my breath and I am pragmatic and am willing to spend a little bit more for upcoming BEVs.

As for your comment on semiconductor, Moore's law until of late had been possible and it's computing power rather than size of the wafer that mattered so not sure why you are drawing the analogy.
 

Ian Schmidt

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As for your comment on semiconductor, Moore's law until of late had been possible and it's computing power rather than size of the wafer that mattered so not sure why you are drawing the analogy.
Moore's Law is that the number of gates in an IC doubles every two years. It got twisted into meaning computing power by the press, but that wasn't Moore's intent (and by the original metric it's very much still on, outside of Intel).
 
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Moore's Law is that the number of gates in an IC doubles every two years. It got twisted into meaning computing power by the press, but that wasn't Moore's intent (and by the original metric it's very much still on, outside of Intel).
What's amazing is that we have accelerated so much that now Moore's law doesn't hold any water anymore.
 

internalaudit

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This video is long but very informative. Ilika also mentions Toyota partnership dating back 10 years ago but at around 27 min mark, does show diverging SSB technology path.

Good to know SSB likely coming out prior to 2025, when it will be considered mainstream.

 
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internalaudit

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Didn't know there was also next gen, after SSBs.

Toyota and Panasonic to establish joint venture specializing in automotive batteries: prismatic Li-ion, solid-state and next-gen

 

ssun30

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Next-gen is Lithium-Air or Sodium-Air, the 'holy grail' of all chemical batteries. It will be the definitive nail in the coffin for not only ICEV and HEV but also FCV. It was actually visioned by Sakichi Toyoda, the founder of the company, almost a hundred years ago.

However both technologies are in extreme infancy with no possibility of rapid commercialization. The latest prototype can do 10 cycles at 0.01C. Toyota originally had Li-Air on its road map in 2030, but the possibility of that being done is near zero.

I actually think Li-Air or Na-Air will come at about the same time as 4th-gen fission at around 2040. The combination of the two would create a true fully electric transport system, putting an end to most fossil fuels and even the Hydrogen Economy.
 

Will1991

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@ssun30 , if I remember correctly, Sakichi Toyoda placed a competition for a huge prize (at that time) for a battery with higher energy density than gasoline/petrol while remaining able to deliver high C rates and keep reliability/durability. Do you think this is really possible in less than 20 years?
 

internalaudit

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For anyone, looking into buying a BEV soon, please have a look at this thread. It seems there is about a year left before we start hearing about how expensive (and maybe the frequency) BEV battery replacement costs are going to be outside of Toyota/Lexus. That's definitely going to accelerate depreciation and lower the resale value of Tesla's with no battery warranty left.


The first Model S's were delivered just over 7 years ago (me included!)... I just checked, and my warranty is good for another year...


Ridiculous amount for a previous gen Leaf!
 
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internalaudit

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Surprised they are aiming these batteries at BEVs instead of flagship Samsung smartphones.


Researchers at the Samsung Advanced Institute of Technology have presented the prototype of a solid-state battery cell, which will help electric cars achieve a range of 800 kilometres and survive 1,000 charging cycles. The institute’s researchers have also found a solution to the problem of dendrite formation in the lithium metal anodes often used in solid-state batteries.

For this purpose, Samsung researchers are using a silver-carbon composite layer for the anode. This not only counteracts the dendrite problem but also ensures greater capacity and a longer service life, according to the company. Samsung says that this prototype represents a “groundbreaking development”.

The composite layer of silver-carbon was developed primarily as a measure against the formation of dendrites, i.e. crystallisation on the lithium anodes. This Ag-C nanocomposite layer is just 5 micrometres thick allowing the developers to reduce anode thickness and increase energy density up to 900Wh/L. According to Samsung, a solid-state battery built with these cells can be around 50 per cent smaller than conventional lithium-ion batteries with a comparable capacity.

The dendrites are material deposits on the lithium metal anode. Since they “block” the surface of the anode, the anode can no longer be fully utilised. If the dendrites grow so far that they damage the separator foil between the anode and cathode, they can even affect the safety of the battery.

“The product of this study could be a seed technology for safer, high-performance batteries of the future,” says project leader Dongmin Im of the Samsung Advanced Institute of Technology (SAIT). “Going forward, we will continue to develop and refine all-solid-state battery materials and manufacturing technologies to help take EV battery innovation to the next level.”

In the prototype that Samsung has developed for the presentation of the battery, there are enough pouch cells for a range of up to 800 kilometres in an electric car – but as always, such specifications should be treated with caution. Samsung also promises that the battery should survive up to 1,000 charging cycles, which extrapolates to a mileage of 800,000 kilometres.

Despite the “groundbreaking” development, the prototype is not yet ready for the market. Initially, the materials are to be better matched in detail, and then the researchers want to start work on corresponding production processes for mass production.



lol, at this:
The timing of the Samsung announcement could also be motivated by corporate policy: In Japan, the Toyota group has been promising to introduce a solid-state battery at the Olympic Games in Tokyo in the summer of 2020, but it remains to be seen how close they are to series production. Among other companies also working on solid-state technology are the Taiwanese company ProLogium that presented a solid-state battery at CES, and Mercedes entered into a cooperation with Hydro-Québec for this purpose.
 

ssun30

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Anti-dendrite coatings have been the center of solid-state battery research, and there are tons of proposed solutions and prototypes out there. Over half of these research groups are from South Korea and Japan for a reason :)

USA and China have lagged behind for a bit but companies are pouring money into research funding to catch up. I hate to see so much money wasted on 'graphene electrodes' that do close to nothing and has no place in real world applications.

But the hurdle now is still getting a meaningful C-rate from any SSB. I'm sure smartphones will see those batteries earlier than EVs.
 

internalaudit

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^ Didn't you mention ultracapacitors could allow for meaningful discharge (propulsion power) rates? Why do you think charging longer than a few hours is a chore? I know it's inconvenient but I'm all for safer battery with higher energy density even if the charge rate sucks.
 
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