internalaudit

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Toyota is way ahead of any other carmaker in the world when it comes to solid-state battery research and patents. I'm surprised this Tesla / Goodenough solid-state battery story hasn't received more media attention. The only way I see Tesla beating Toyota on this is if Elon Musk takes his usual "move fast and break things" attitude and makes his early adopter customers beta testers for SSB technology.
Goodenough invents. Some bigger player commercializes.

Speculation is they've been working together for a few years now based on those YouTube videos I shared. Makes perfect sense for EM to tout his million miles battery around the same time Goodenough says he's got a breakthrough. Also how can the Roadster carry 200 KwH battery unless it is this next gen battery. Plaid reported to have been 350 pounds lighter maybe because of the new pack being tested.
 

maiaramdan

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@internalaudit , I believe Joaquin Ruhi when he said that Toyota is a head of anyone in SSB + the safety , security , the main Toyota setup as we saw from Tokyo show concepts of in wheel motors with much advanced and safer SSB and the free choise whether the wheel drive front or rear or 4 , that's all will be magical formula when blend it together in 1 car , add that to the FCEV , imagine a fuel cell car such as Mirai with a SSB , it will be amazing and another step pushing more people using the fuel cell, and the more if we got a Mirai with AWD like the current used in RAV4 or small in wheel motors plus the fuel cell stacks, if Toyota can reach that in reliable and safe way, they can own the future of the automobiles
 
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spwolf

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^^ Prof. Goodenough is technically my academic grandfather but I never had the chance to meet him before I left USA. He's truly a legend, always energetic and engaged despite of his age and I feel honored to share academic lineage with him; however, his recent research has been controversial to say the least. Considering his glass battery papers were only published last year, the possibility of commercialization by 2022 is close to zero.
will anyone actually have solid state batteries in cars by 2025 even? Like in actually selling vehicles?
 

Ian Schmidt

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The only way I see Tesla beating Toyota on this is if Elon Musk takes his usual "move fast and break things" attitude and makes his early adopter customers beta testers for SSB technology.
And of course that's exactly what he's gonna do, because it's what he's always done and a significant percentage of Tesla's customers don't seem to mind.
 

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@mediumhot , I think it will be ready production wise from 2023 maximum if not before

You must take in your consideration that Toyota will use Tokyo Olympics and Paralympics at its max , more that Japan itself
+
The 6 Toyota electric lineup

If the past is a hint, Toyota period from announced a new technology or from freezing a new car design to put it into production is always never exceeds 4 years
 

internalaudit

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In-wheel motors look good but I'm okay with just three (two in the rear) electric motors.

If this company in Eastern Europe can do it, so can Toyota. Check out the video where the motors were subjected to strenuous testing.


Protean Electric, a British in-wheel company, was bought out two years ago by a Chinese company.


As for solid state battery, if Tesla / Goodenough / Braga (hearsay for now) can start in 2017 and commercialize it in 2022, as per Braga's optimism, I think Toyota's head start could mean we get this by 2025. Even VAG says they are optimistic they can put out BEVs with SSB by 2025.
 
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internalaudit

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Didn't know about the valley of death (graph starts around the 1 min mark). Looking more like I will only consider used BEVs within the eight year warranty period (hopefully extensive testing will be possible by then to check actual wear.on batteries masked by capacity buffers) until newer battery technology comes out.

 
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internalaudit

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Anyone else smell BS?

Why would I be concerned with a very long charging time unless it takes 48 hours to charge to 90% at 220V (or >16 hours to charge to 90% with L2 charging between 16-30A)? Even if it did, I don't think it's an issue for me lol. I would be very happy with the battery longevity. :)



“Our cars with nickel-metal hydride batteries [hybrid cars] are doing well,” he said. “They [the batteries] are expensive, but they are easier to recycle. Lithium batteries, on the other hand, are cheaper, but production capacity is a problem.”

Sawa spoke of new solid-state battery technology in positive terms, telling WhichCar that a solid-state battery could power a car for 1000km. The best EV range figures at present are less than half of that.

However, there is a caveat.

“We are working on the technology, but we cannot release it yet,” he said. “It is possible to go 1000km, but then the charging time could be a very long time.”



Even with a 100 kWh battery, I think I'm good with a 13.5 h charging time. There's a link for the calculator. I attached a sample charging of 100 kWh battery.


1) First calculate your load power (P), by multiplying the voltage (U in volts) by the current (I, in amps). You get a value in watts.
P = U x I
For example: 16 A x 230 V = 3,680 W

2) Divide the load power by 1,000 for a value in kilowatts.
For example: 3,680 W = 3.7 kilowatts

3) Divide the power of your battery (also in kW) by the figure obtained to get the charging time.
For example: 24 kW/ 3.7 kW= 6.5 hours
 

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@internalaudit: You may not be concerned with a very long charging time but others may be very concerned.

If you only ever plan on charging overnight at home or you are fortunate enough to have access to a charger at your place of employment, you may only become concerned about a long charging time if it runs greater than ~8 to ~12 hours. But a long charging time effectively limits the range you can travel on long road trips. Can you afford to sit for 2, 3 or 4 hours in the middle of your road trip while your EV charges?

If your intention is only to drive your EV to and from work, and for short-range errands, so that you can recharge overnight at home, then find an EV with a smaller capacity battery (like the newly introduced Mazda EV), one that offers you only the range you need.

@Ian Schmidt: I have not yet viewed that video, but this is what I know.

The lithium-ion batteries in our mobile phones and portable computers are similar to the lithium-ion batteries in our EVs, with some differences. The batteries in our phones, as I understand it, are designed for approximately 3 years of use before degradation renders them effectively useless, while the batteries in our EVs are designed to last longer.

Of course, battery management in our EVs is much more sophisticated, not allowing the batteries to discharge too low and then not allowing the batteries to charge too full. Battery charging management on our EVs is automated (and automakers and battery-makers have done much research regarding how state of charge affects battery longevity), whereas battery charging management on our portable devices is largely manual -- we regularly charge to 100% and may regularly discharge to 0%, which will affect battery life.
 

internalaudit

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@internalaudit: You may not be concerned with a very long charging time but others may be very concerned.

If you only ever plan on charging overnight at home or you are fortunate enough to have access to a charger at your place of employment, you may only become concerned about a long charging time if it runs greater than ~8 to ~12 hours. But a long charging time effectively limits the range you can travel on long road trips. Can you afford to sit for 2, 3 or 4 hours in the middle of your road trip while your EV charges?

If your intention is only to drive your EV to and from work, and for short-range errands, so that you can recharge overnight at home, then find an EV with a smaller capacity battery (like the newly introduced Mazda EV), one that offers you only the range you need.

@Ian Schmidt: I have not yet viewed that video, but this is what I know.

The lithium-ion batteries in our mobile phones and portable computers are similar to the lithium-ion batteries in our EVs, with some differences. The batteries in our phones, as I understand it, are designed for approximately 3 years of use before degradation renders them effectively useless, while the batteries in our EVs are designed to last longer.

Of course, battery management in our EVs is much more sophisticated, not allowing the batteries to discharge too low and then not allowing the batteries to charge too full. Battery charging management on our EVs is automated (and automakers and battery-makers have done much research regarding how state of charge affects battery longevity), whereas battery charging management on our portable devices is largely manual -- we regularly charge to 100% and may regularly discharge to 0%, which will affect battery life.
Of course that is a concern but things more concerning to me are: battery longevity , driving distance, cost and time to market.

So most would want to wait until these 1k km BEVs can be charged in 1/3 to 1/2 of the time? How long would the wait for that technology be? Would that technology lower manufacturing costs?

And how will battery makers work this magic of shorter charging time besides increasing the system's voltage?

I am no engineer and mathematical/physics challenged so please go basic on me.
 

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Battery charging doesn't work like that. Charging the last few % of SoC is very very slow. That's why EV makers usually use time-to-80% SoC for charging rate.

Solid state batteries will have considerably lower C-rate and unfortunately all high energy-density battery technology will sacrifice power density. There is no free lunch in electrochemistry. You have to give up one thing to get another.

1C = discharge/charge 100% of SoC in 1 hour. But as I've said the last few% always take longer, so it's more like 48 minutes to charge 80%. Most modern BEV batteries could charge at 3C, which means '16 minutes to 80%', with solid-state that number is very likely to drop to below 2C. However, current batteries could only safely charge at about 1C, while SSBs are more likely to maintain a higher C-rate over a long time.

But regardless, there is no battery technology on the horizon that will allow '5-minute charging' you see from all the BS marketing articles. 5-minute charging means 12C which will turn the car into an inferno in a matter of seconds. There will be no 5 minute charging, not this year, not next year, not in the next decade.

It's very wasteful on the infrastructure to charge one car in 5 minutes. All those super high power next-gen fast-charging protocols are not meant to do that. Instead the real goal is to simultaneously charge, say, 6 cars in 30 minutes or a dozen in 1 hour so effectively one car will be charged every 5 minutes.
 

internalaudit

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Could charging at 80% SoC mean 20+ year battery life?

Also why do SSB's have 2C while current ones can either be 1 or 3C? Is that totally dependent on the size of the battery pack?
 

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But regardless, there is no battery technology on the horizon that will allow '5-minute charging' you see from all the BS marketing articles. 5-minute charging means 12C which will turn the car into an inferno in a matter of seconds. There will be no 5 minute charging, not this year, not next year, not in the next decade.
Which is why some analysts think Toyota's correct to keep pursuing FCEV. Physics and chemistry give no free lunches.


Battery charging management on our EVs is automated (and automakers and battery-makers have done much research regarding how state of charge affects battery longevity), whereas battery charging management on our portable devices is largely manual -- we regularly charge to 100% and may regularly discharge to 0%, which will affect battery life.
Most mobile devices do now use some sort of smart charge controller chip, and Apple at least also manages charging at the OS level. At night, it will calculate the slowest rate that will get the device to 100% by 6 AM or whenever it usually gets taken off the charger in the morning and do that to keep the battery happy. During the day or if the device is in use, it uses the fastest safe charge rate.

But yeah, EVs obviously have room and capacity to manage things even further.
 

internalaudit

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Which is why some analysts think Toyota's correct to keep pursuing FCEV. Physics and chemistry give no free lunches.




Most mobile devices do now use some sort of smart charge controller chip, and Apple at least also manages charging at the OS level. At night, it will calculate the slowest rate that will get the device to 100% by 6 AM or whenever it usually gets taken off the charger in the morning and do that to keep the battery happy. During the day or if the device is in use, it uses the fastest safe charge rate.

But yeah, EVs obviously have room and capacity to manage things even further.
I think even with iOS smart charging monitoring, plugging overnight still takes a toll on the battery, as would depletion to "0". We have two 6s (replaced by Apple Canada because of the potential battery bloating) and while my wife was using one before she upgraded to a S10+, she would plug it in overnight and probably wait until the battery goes down to really low levels before charging it. That phone's battery health was around 96% last time I looked.

My Note 4 died months ago (endless bootloop) and I used the other barely used 6s (daughter bought her X) and four months later, battery health is still at 100% (I checked just before seeing your post).

I try to charge when it's a little over 20%, sometimes it does drop to lower levels but their the exception, and stop charging when it's like 90%.

I hope it gives us lots of more years of service before succumbing to that valley of death.

=====

Come to think of it, I'm definitely okay with a sporty enough PHEV or HEV as long as I'm getting at least 60 US MPG and something > 6 secs 0-100 km/h and if factory battery replacement (including labor) for the PHEV is $7k at most, while that of the HEV at around the $3k mark.

Break-even point for comparable BEVs would be a few decades if all we're spending is at most $1,500/year on gasoline.

I don't think BEVs are going to reach price parity with ICEVs even if it costs much less to manufacture them because there's little value-add to the battery components when they are mostly out-sourced. That reads to me like less profit margin at least on the battery pack and that is a big component of the overall vehicle cost.

I noticed besides Tesla, most including Porsche, only cover the motor for four years. I know the motors can last a lot longer but I'm surprised most manufacturers don't warrant the battery + power train for eight years. I think the US Feds only mandated eight year coverage on the batteries and nothing else.
 
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flexus

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Which is why some analysts think Toyota's correct to keep pursuing FCEV. Physics and chemistry give no free lunches.




Most mobile devices do now use some sort of smart charge controller chip, and Apple at least also manages charging at the OS level. At night, it will calculate the slowest rate that will get the device to 100% by 6 AM or whenever it usually gets taken off the charger in the morning and do that to keep the battery happy. During the day or if the device is in use, it uses the fastest safe charge rate.

But yeah, EVs obviously have room and capacity to manage things even further.
My Xperia has smartcharge
 

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I noticed besides Tesla, most including Porsche, only cover the motor for four years. I know the motors can last a lot longer but I'm surprised most manufacturers don't warrant the battery + power train for eight years. I think the US Feds only mandated eight year coverage on the batteries and nothing else.
I'm kind of curious if there's another shoe waiting to drop there for some reason, because motors are 100+ year old tech at this point and it should be well known how to make them last. There definitely are more reports of Teslas having the drive unit die than I would expect.
 
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