Lasse J. Nordvik
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I saw the UX in the metal for the first time today, and it looks really good! Best of all was the sitting position. Very low slung and sporty just the way I like it.
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internalaudit
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This is perfect. Good to know. Can't wait for Toyota reliability in BEVs.
60kWh (300km 'real life' range target) and 143kW motor are preliminary specs for the C-HR. These modest specs are chosen to keep prices low.
C-HR EV is collab between Toyota and GAC. Don't know if the UX EV program will be separate and have different specs or supply chain.
Also, did I mention the I-Pace is having a way more serious production problem than the Model X at launch? Jaguar barely made three digits in the opening months it seems. Actually, the Germans saw the similar problem with their supply chain, that's why the EQC, iX3, and e-Trons are all delayed. BTW, did I also mention these 'Tesla killers' are absolutely primitive compared to the Model X they claim to kill? They are not more, if not are less impressive than all the dozens of Chinese Tesla copycats that suddenly appeared out of nowhere since 2017.
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both C-HR and UX will be sold in Japan, China, Europe in 2020... whose batteries will they use will likely depend on the market, but i suspect everything else is the same.
As to the i-Pace, I am sure battery is not up to the Panasonic/Tesla, but it is a big difference in issues... Tesla has basic issues with producing vehicles, from painting to delivering, while new entries might have batter/motor quality control issues, which will be fixed, unlike Tesla's corporate culture.
Trexus
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The UX will have sold for 2 years before the EV comes out. This should be fine. People will love the petrol and hybrid versions of the UX. I wouldn't mind getting the UX 250h (F Sport)...
UX 200
UX 250h
UX 200e or 250e (curious on what Lexus will name the EV version)
UX 200
UX 250h
UX 200e or 250e (curious on what Lexus will name the EV version)
they are planning only 10k-15k per year for UX, so I dont expect it to be special. I would guess they will sell it at good prices only in countries that have big incentives for EVs, and that other countries will get too high of the price for sales.
Also they plan under 100k/year sales for CHR, so I would guess it will be more interesting price wise.
Related to this, new Prius in Japan is getting lion batteries on all models, coming soon, so this might mean that they will shortly start producing a lot of lion batteries.
maiaramdan
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FCEV & BEV for both tastes
Good move
Even I will love to try the FCEV much more than the BEV
Good move
Even I will love to try the FCEV much more than the BEV
Ian Schmidt
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Everything is speculation at this point regarding BEV, and there's not a lot of technical marvel to be had in the sector because battery technology's barely advanced in the last 150 years. (Which is why EVs failed the first time, in the early 1900s).
internalaudit
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I hope the second BEV from Lexus will be the IS. 
Tesla-like performance but without the maintenance headache/nightmare.
Tesla-like performance but without the maintenance headache/nightmare.
Ian Schmidt
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That would be great. I saw another set of photos on Twitter this morning of someone who had a Model 3 delivered with panel gaps large enough to let rain into the passenger compartment and trunk. Oof.
Toyota will never be technologically advanced if you are just looking at it from kwh/100km perspective... they will always be on safer side with longer lasting usage of the battery vs initial performance.
Will1991
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I believe (and it's only my personal opinion), this kWh/100km metric will be the best topic from a BEV Toyota, because they already have a lot of know-how for electric engines from their HV and with the later PHEV that´s one of the most (if not the most) fuel efficient vehicle on the market.
One of the worse metric I believe it will be kWh/kg, not because energy density but because Toyota playing it safe from usable energy perspective.
so you mean it will be 100kwh battery presented as 80kwh for instance? Not sure if there is distinction, it seems to me that Germans right now are using less of battery capacity compared to Tesla for instance, who is willing to use more.
You answered your own question. Toyota already has the most efficient EV (Prius Prime) thanks to two decades of work with electrification. They are second to none in this respect and thus will have competitive energy efficiency for their first EV.
The 60kWh/300km numbers are very preliminary and should not be interpreted as what the final product will deliver. Toyota has a history of underpromising and they aren't even promising anything here. It's more of a general capacity/range target for their first mass market EV. There isn't confirmation that these two numbers are related, therefore we cannot say it gets 20kWh/100km energy efficiency. The only information we can get is that the C-HR/UX EV won't be hype projects like the e-Tron or the EQC but are meant to be accessible to average buyers, hence the moderate specs. Their hype projects will carry fuel cells not a metric ton of batteries.
In the end I will not be surprised at all if they make only 80% or less of the total capacity available to users so they can maintain their reputation with reliability. Li-ion batteries can be very durable even with abusive fast charging cycles when their SoCs are limited in the 15-80% range. The 'industry-trailing' energy density comment was referring to their current battery supplier. But the Li-ion supply market in China has been volatile in 2018 and is expected to undergo major shifts in the next two years so there is still possibility of supplier change before launch. We've already seen some major manufacturers with huge capacities and high profile contracts go under. It has been a tough year for all EV suppliers including us.
Most BEVs are pretty close in terms of user available capacities. Tesla actually has slightly more over-provisioning than industry average. None of them go as low as 80% which is what I expect Toyota to do at the beginning. There is a lot of reliability to gain by not allowing that top and last 10% to be used. Many EVs go to 'preserve mode' after some abusive charging cycles and cap available capacities in software anyway.
The best case scenario would be three user-selectable capacity modes:
"commute mode" which limits SoC to 40-60%, this is best for daily commute which also uses slow workplace/home charging. The EV has practically unlimited charging cycles in this mode (like the Prius battery).
"balanced mode" which limits SoC to 20-80%, which balances maximum range with durability. With such SoC range the number of fast charge cycles is doubled or tripled compared to the next mode. Ideal for owners who have non-fixed driving range from day to day like myself.
"voyage mode" which gives full SoC range (5-95%), maximum range allowed for the few road trips average owner will do in a year.
The only problem I see with this model is if the owner forgets to change to "voyage mode" the night before a road trip and suddenly find he only has 60% charge. But that shouldn't really be a major annoyance.
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Finally there's some bad news if you are looking to buy a Toyota/Lexus EV in the future. Toyota is embracing the extremely counterintuitive "single pedal operation" concept introduced by BMW. It means both acceleration and deceleration control are done by the throttle pedal, and the brake pedal is for emergency braking only. If you have experience driving one of those single pedal EVs, you will know it's incredibly frustrating and almost impossible to get accustomed to. I used to spend a day with a BMW 1-series EV and thought the brake was broken; it was the worst driving experience I've ever had. The engineer at TMEC says single pedal operation gains about 3% extra range from KERS which is why they are doing it.
I genuinely hope Toyota makes it an option to use two pedal operation. It's pathetic to ignore user experience just for maximum efficiency. We already saw how the Prius got infamous due to its obsession for efficiency.
I genuinely hope Toyota makes it an option to use two pedal operation. It's pathetic to ignore user experience just for maximum efficiency. We already saw how the Prius got infamous due to its obsession for efficiency.
Will1991
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Sometime ago i've read an article (https://newsroom.toyota.co.jp/en/corporate/21139684.html) detailing how Toyota managed to get less rare-element for electric motors production, i do agree
It's quite a good idea to get someway of giving different capacity's for different kinds of journeys, something like Tesla ability to limit the maximum SOC throw the infotainment? Just hope they remember to get battery cell balancing even at "medium" state of charge for battery pack longevity.
Regarding one-pedal driving, maybe something like Nissan e-Pedal? Akyo Toyoda did said they will no longer develop cars without fun driving dynamics.
You managed to drive an Active E? It should have been quite an experience!
I'm really looking forward for Lexus's ventures at an BEV, trying to wait this couple of years to replace my current Toyota.
It's quite a good idea to get someway of giving different capacity's for different kinds of journeys, something like Tesla ability to limit the maximum SOC throw the infotainment? Just hope they remember to get battery cell balancing even at "medium" state of charge for battery pack longevity.
Regarding one-pedal driving, maybe something like Nissan e-Pedal? Akyo Toyoda did said they will no longer develop cars without fun driving dynamics.
You managed to drive an Active E? It should have been quite an experience!
I'm really looking forward for Lexus's ventures at an BEV, trying to wait this couple of years to replace my current Toyota.
It was a Zinoro 1E, which is the hatchback variant of the Active E. Zinoro is a sub-brand of Brilliance-BMW like Venucia for DFW-Nissan (which produces the Leaf in China). The car was the typical poorly engineered early 2010s compliance EV. The one-pedal operation on that vehicle is appalling.
I'm never lucky enough to try one-pedal in the Model 3 or the new Leaf, but I heard one-pedal on these is much more restrained and two-pedal operation is still available. Regardless of the tuning, one-pedal operation is counter-intuitive by design and requires complete relearning by the user. This is why I think they will be very unpopular, just like how CVTs today all try to mimic ATs instead of true CVT because people thought early CVTs were 'broken'. The concept that 'partial throttle could either mean moderate acceleration or braking' is an utterly confusing concept to everyone.
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Don't most electric cars give the driver the option between one & two pedal operation? My experience has been limited, and I've always driven in traditional two-pedal mode.
internalaudit
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Even Mazda plans to offer a BEV in 2020. Toyota/Lexus should offer one or two in North America as MY 2021 at the very latest.
https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Companies/Mazda-to-launch-electric-car-with-rotary-engine-in-2020
Mazda Motor will roll out an electric vehicle equipped with a range-extending rotary engine in 2020, part of its plan to transition to a fully hybrid and electric lineup, the company said Tuesday.
The new model, and a battery-only vehicle set to debut around the same time, represent Mazda's first electric offerings.
The new electric models were developed in-house. The joint electric-car technology venture set up last year by Mazda, Toyota Motor and Denso is not expected to bear fruit until at least 2020, according to Mazda.
https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Companies/Mazda-to-launch-electric-car-with-rotary-engine-in-2020
Mazda Motor will roll out an electric vehicle equipped with a range-extending rotary engine in 2020, part of its plan to transition to a fully hybrid and electric lineup, the company said Tuesday.
The new model, and a battery-only vehicle set to debut around the same time, represent Mazda's first electric offerings.
The new electric models were developed in-house. The joint electric-car technology venture set up last year by Mazda, Toyota Motor and Denso is not expected to bear fruit until at least 2020, according to Mazda.