MKV Toyota Supra Master Thread

spwolf

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You can always cherry pick models to make the case either way, as you have done. Regardless of that, LS, LC, delayed LX, delayed Land Cruiser, delayed Tundra, delayed Sequoia, delayed 4Runner, and delayed GX are huge missed opportunities. You could loop Tacoma into that too.

i am not cherry picking anything when I tell you they are by far the most profitable car company in 2018. So they obviously doing better than any other car company, and that is actually by far - in fact they increased their lead in past 2-3 years.

As to the Tacoma, they doubled their production and they are still production constrained. So..........

It is silly to say that Toyota missed something, sure, but lets say that they obviously hit a lot more than anyone else.

Why would new Rav4 be cherry picking? It is best selling SUV in the world, and probably overall most profitable vehicle in the world. Investing into Rav4 that sold over 800k in 2018, sooner than in GX is a no brainer. And yet they managed to keep GX a good seller.

And they probably made the best Rav4 in the history.
 

mikeavelli

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I work with German and Japanese companies. They are very different. People complaining about the long time might not be taking the two cultures who have to work together into consideration. It is amazing the Supra saw the light of day, especially in the age of SUV love and Coupe hate.

There just was never the business plan to do it all in house. Too much money and resources. So they shared things with BMW which might piss purists off but the car is here.

Every sign points to higher performance models coming which it does need. For now, reviewing those R&T pics, it looks pretty damn good for its price.

I make no excuses for the valid points made against the Supra. Not here to defend the Supra against all things. That said I am beyond excited I can show my 4 year old a new 2020 Supra and not just a 1995 one. :)
 

ssun30

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The RAV4 being the best compact SUV ever has nothing to do with TMC's other mismanaged programs. You just defend TMC whenever there's any criticism against it. And I don't understand it.

Some of the programs Gecko listed ARE mismanaged. And the Supra program is a particularly bad one.

In some sense yes TMC is extremely successful because it has the least amount of bad programs (think about GM/Ford's entire car lineup, they are dead for good) and their good programs are overwhelmingly good. But that doesn't mean they don't have problems. And part of the Kaizen spirit is not stopping as the best, but always strive to be better than the best.
 

mikeavelli

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The RAV4 being the best compact SUV ever has nothing to do with TMC's other mismanaged programs. You just defend TMC whenever there's any criticism against it. And I don't understand it.

Some of the programs Gecko listed ARE mismanaged. And the Supra program is a particularly bad one.

In some sense yes TMC is extremely successful because it has the least amount of bad programs (think about GM/Ford's entire car lineup, they are dead for good) and their good programs are overwhelmingly good. But that doesn't mean they don't have problems. And part of the Kaizen spirit is not stopping as the best, but always strive to be better than the best.

How can you say car that hasn't been sold yet is mismanaged? You may not like the Supra but it certainly is not mismanaged. The fact is the business case for it without BMW meant it wasn't going to see the light of day. With partnering it made the light of day.
 

Gecko

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How can you say car that hasn't been sold yet is mismanaged? You may not like the Supra but it certainly is not mismanaged. The fact is the business case for it without BMW meant it wasn't going to see the light of day. With partnering it made the light of day.

"Mismanaged" might not be the right term, but maybe "miscalculated" given the spec sheet, pricing and lack of Toyota's engineering involvement in the project. Looking around at reactions, even now on SupraMKV, this doesn't seem to be the car everyone thought we were getting - and not in a positive way.

I personally think that in the TNGA era with new platforms and engines, Toyota had the ability to do this in-house if they wanted to.
 

mmcartalk

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How can you say car that hasn't been sold yet is mismanaged? You may not like the Supra but it certainly is not mismanaged. The fact is the business case for it without BMW meant it wasn't going to see the light of day. With partnering it made the light of day.

Gecko said:
"Mismanaged" might not be the right term, but maybe "miscalculated" given the spec sheet, pricing and lack of Toyota's engineering involvement in the project. Looking around at reactions, even now on SupraMKV, this doesn't seem to be the car everyone thought we were getting - and not in a positive way.


I personally think that in the TNGA era with new platforms and engines, Toyota had the ability to do this in-house if they wanted to.

I basically agree with Gecko that Toyota certainly could have done this in-house if desired, but at the same time, I suspect that they also wanted BMW's (at least former) expertise in chassis-tuning.
 

bogglo

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When was TNGA anounced by Toyota. when was The Supra project first annouced?

For a car manufacturer like Toyota i'm sure there is a lot of taught that went into the decision to make this car. And those decisions we will never understand.

Not making it in house might also be another way Toyota is trying to keep a distance from Lexus. Why do you think Toyota was able to price the Supra at 50K and the RC350 at 50K? And why would you pick the RC350 over the Supra especially after looking at the specs?
 
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I basically agree with Gecko that Toyota certainly could have done this in-house if desired, but at the same time, I suspect that they also wanted BMW's (at least former) expertise in chassis-tuning.

Toyota and Lexus are the best in the business in terms of chassis tuning. They needed an inline-six engine because that's what Supra focus groups have said. Toyota will not spend a billion dollars on a new series engines. BMW was the best solution because they are the best in terms of I6 engines. The B58 in specific is something else.

If they were to build it in house with our current expectations, it would easily hit 100k. The current product is half that and it's looking to be a very good successor. However i'll be honest it does leave a bit to be desired. But they're trying their best to remedy that in the future.

"Mismanaged" might not be the right term, but maybe "miscalculated" given the spec sheet, pricing and lack of Toyota's engineering involvement in the project. Looking around at reactions, even now on SupraMKV, this doesn't seem to be the car everyone thought we were getting - and not in a positive way.

I personally think that in the TNGA era with new platforms and engines, Toyota had the ability to do this in-house if they wanted to.

I agree with your term "miscalculated" 100%. But let me give you all a completely new perspective. We have been comparing this to the Supra Turbo. But isn't this the base Supra? There will be a "Supra Turbo" style version coming as well for the MkIV in 2 or so years. How about we make a comparison to the base MkIV NA Supra? Doesn't that sound much better?

MkIV NA Supra vs MkV GR Supra - The bold in black shows the advantage:
Horsepower (hp): 220 vs 335 - 115 hp in the MkV GR Supra's favor

Torque (lb-ft): 210 vs 369 - 159 lb-ft in the MkV GR Supra's favor

Mass (lbs) using heaviest mass for each car: 3329 vs 3351- 22 lbs in the MkIV NA Supra's favor (surprisingly)

0-60 (mph) approximations: 7.0 vs 4.0 - 3.0 second difference in the MkV GR Supra's favor

Price (USD) approximations/inflation for the MkIV Supra: 35,000 (65,000 in today's money) vs 50,000 - 15,000 dollars in favor of the MkV GR Supra

As for the power, word has it that the Supra has the filter regardless of the regulations (unlike BMW which only has the filter in Europe but not North America. Solution? People can remove the filter in the US and it can make the 382 horsepower as advertised. A downpipe and an exhaust tune after easily hits 400+ hp.

Ideally, don't we all want a pure Toyota product? I sure do. But this is the smartest move they could have made ever. It is actually affordable at 50k for a genuine sports car (only offerings that beat this and are cheaper are the Camaro and Mustang). And I really love the B58 so much. With the Toyota tinkering it actually sounds like the older Supras!!

All I am saying is to trust Toyota. They have never failed on the fundamentals of a sports car. Better and more hardcore versions will be coming as well!

Here's the clip of it accelerating. Listen to it at 0:25-0:40 seconds. See? It sounds badass. You want to repeat it a couple of more times? Just press 1 on your computer (sorry phone users :D).

 
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Would it be a fair comparison if you did the A80 2JZ-GTE to A90 B58B30?
May not be price wise, but mechanically.
 
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Would it be a fair comparison if you did the A80 2JZ-GTE to A90 B58B30?
May not be price wise, but mechanically.

I'm not sure how you posed that question but I am going to assume it isn't rhetorical. No it isn't fair mechanically either. You need to think of the tier that the MkV is residing. If it's supposed to be the top tier car then no question you're correct on all fronts. Even price (when you take in to account that the MkIV specs are from approximately 25 years ago) as well. However if you think of this as the NA Supra equivalent then all is good.

Just damn it release the stick shift. If you have heard Tada-san's recent excuses you can't help but get angry.
 
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Then why wouldnt you compare this to the inline 4 toyota will sell globally (besides the US)? The supra, as of the moment, is mid tier.
 
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Then why wouldnt you compare this to the inline 4 toyota will sell globally (besides the US)? The supra, as of the moment, is mid tier.

I don't count that because that's just a trim for enthusiasts who want a Supra but certain taxes in their countries prevent them to. Notice how almost nobody pays any significant attention to the 4-cylinder Supra (even countries that impose taxes) and all eyes are on the inline-six Supra. Plus all other Supras were inline-sixes, so it pays to the heritage to pay more attention to that one. The 4-cylinder Supra engines are bang on BMW and nothing engineered by Toyota (as far as I know) while the inline-six actually has been getting the most (if not all) the attention from Toyota. To be honest, I don't really think Toyota really considers as the 4-cylinder as anything significant.

Hence, this is why the GR Supra isn't mid tier. It's the equivalent to the NA Supra MkIV and we will get a GRMN car that will be the equivalent to what the Supra Turbo MkIV was back in the day.
 

Joaquin Ruhi

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A nerdy deep-dive into the differences between the U.S. market BMW Z4 and Toyota Supra inline sixes comes to us from Road & Track:

Why the Toyota Supra Makes Less Power Than the BMW Z4
The engines are nearly equal, but not equal enough.

BY BOZI TATAREVIC
JAN 28, 2019

The Toyota Supra shares a platform and a large majority of its components with the BMW Z4. But as we discovered last summer and recently confirmed, the Z4 will make 47 more horsepower than the Supra in top trim. Since ECU tuning has become so advanced with modern engines, the automatic response might be to think that it is all in the programming. A BMW parts catalog reveals that the changes go further than the code.

According to the BMW ETK catalog, the US variant of the Supra will be equipped with the B58B30C engine. It carries part number 11002463592, and seems very similar to the engine for the US-spec Z4 M40i. However, the Z4 engine is actually the B38B30B, and has part number 11002464415. What does that mean? There are internal differences. Searching the interchanges for the two part numbers shows that the US Supra engine is the same as what Europeans will see in their variant of the Z4 M40i, while the US M40i engine will be used in the new G20 M340i 3-series.

Digging into the motors reveals that the first different part is the cylinder head. The Z4 has a cylinder head part number of 11127934495 while the unit in the Supra is marked as 11127934494. The differences are not apparent based on the catalog illustration, and instead are likely to be in the castings of the cylinder heads as both use the same exact camshafts, valves, and ancillary components.

Moving to the bottom end, both engines use the same crankshaft and bearings, but the pistons and connecting rods are different. The Z4 piston–part number 11258678934–is found in a variety of BMW products including the US M340i and European spec 7-series sedans. The Supra piston–part number 11258681079–is found in the motor for the US spec 7-series and the X7.

Based on the catalog entries, basically every other component seems to be the same. The final difference appears to be in the turbocharger. The Z4 uses part number 11657934387, which is only shared with the M340i, while the Supra uses part number 11657934332, which is only shared with the Euro-spec Z4 M40i. Even though the turbocharger appears to be different, all of the clamps and mounting hardware are the same between the two. Even though the unit on the Z4 might have bigger wheels in it, there is a good chance that it should bolt right up to the Supra.

The hardware for the ECU is even the same; the two cars share the 86T0 DME. After looking at the parts, it doesn't look to be very hard to replicate the power of the M40i in the Supra.

For those that want to make an OEM equivalent, the primary components to change will be the pistons and rods as those are likely built to withstand a little more boost. Swapping the cylinder head and turbocharger would complete the package. A tune will take advantage of all of those components.

We’re likely to see tuner shops digging into these cars as soon as they hit the ground. Based on what I see here, it likely won't be very complicated for them to make even more power than the Z4 M40i.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/future-cars/a26064082/toyota-supra-bmw-z4-engines/

The key question here: Will we eventually see the more powerful B38B30B in a GRMN Supra? Or will BMW keep it to itself, much like Toyota didn't share the dual-injection FSE version of the 2GR V6 with Lotus?
 

mikeavelli

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A nerdy deep-dive into the differences between the U.S. market BMW Z4 and Toyota Supra inline sixes comes to us from Road & Track:



https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/future-cars/a26064082/toyota-supra-bmw-z4-engines/

The key question here: Will we eventually see the more powerful B38B30B in a GRMN Supra? Or will BMW keep it to itself, much like Toyota didn't share the dual-injection FSE version of the 2GR V6 with Lotus?


Thanks for the article. Everything points to harder edged and more powerful Supras coming.
 

spwolf

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The RAV4 being the best compact SUV ever has nothing to do with TMC's other mismanaged programs. You just defend TMC whenever there's any criticism against it. And I don't understand it.

Some of the programs Gecko listed ARE mismanaged. And the Supra program is a particularly bad one.

In some sense yes TMC is extremely successful because it has the least amount of bad programs (think about GM/Ford's entire car lineup, they are dead for good) and their good programs are overwhelmingly good. But that doesn't mean they don't have problems. And part of the Kaizen spirit is not stopping as the best, but always strive to be better than the best.

Depends how you look at things - you and gecko are looking at it from enthusiast side, since I worked at car sales side, i understand/accept different business side of the cars.

So for someone 4Runner or GX Are mismanaged, which actually it was heroic feat when I look at it. :)
 

ssun30

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Depends how you look at things - you and gecko are looking at it from enthusiast side, since I worked at car sales side, i understand/accept different business side of the cars.

So for someone 4Runner or GX Are mismanaged, which actually it was heroic feat when I look at it. :)

I understand that keep milking money on programs with fully amortized costs is a very reasonable decision. But that business practice is profit maximization at the cost of future projections. You can say there's nothing wrong with the 4Runner and GX because they are still selling in significant numbers. But you have to think about opportunity costs.

When your competitors keep raising the bar, it's a big no-no to be complacent with current sales and profits. From an investor's perspective, that is not good program management.
 

spwolf

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I understand that keep milking money on programs with fully amortized costs is a very reasonable decision. But that business practice is profit maximization at the cost of future projections. You can say there's nothing wrong with the 4Runner and GX because they are still selling in significant numbers. But you have to think about opportunity costs.

When your competitors keep raising the bar, it's a big no-no to be complacent with current sales and profits. From an investor's perspective, that is not good program management.

there is no 4Runner or GX competitors left... just like there are no Land Cruiser competitors left. Hence their sales are actually growing for their BoF platforms worldwide.

I think Toyota is doing really good from investor perspective obviously, what you can say that you would like them to do more from enthusiast perspective, and that makes sense... and they are doing it, if we look at newever vehicles, it just cant be all done at the same time.
 

Motor

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GR Supra Performance Line Concept TRD
https://www.carscoops.com/2019/02/t...rst-real-tuning-job-performance-line-concept/
d997b9a9-2020-toyota-trd-supra-1.jpg


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Looks good. :thumbsup: