MKV Toyota Supra Master Thread

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I actually tried that but the moderators were deleting (constructive) negative/critical posts this morning during the reveal, so that doesn't seem like a fair or balanced environment for "understanding." People expressing concern about the price, specs and power were quickly silenced - I watched the threads as comments were removed. If the admins and moderators can't accept dissenting opinions, I think that says a lot about their insecurity around the launch of this car.



I agree with you that BMW is salty about the press attention received by the Supra, thus their re-issuance of the Z4's 0-60 time 5 hours after the Supra reveal. LOL. However, that forum is full of "insiders" who all had information that turned out to be utterly false and fabricated. Up until the 11th hour, many folks with "inside information" were stating 3,200lb curb weight and 380hp, cast iron block, Toyota-dedicated engine tune, etc... so going forward, I think I will limit my learning opportunities to official release materials from Toyota themselves.

Also, I am very curious to know your thoughts on the Supra being the most important car of the decade. That is a very bold claim and as I am trying to better understand this car, I welcome your thoughts.

I didn't mean to make two posts back to back but I saw this one as well. I am not sure about the admins doing that but I'll try to delve more myself. I'm sure you have seen me being involved in that forum.

However it is a big N O when you're saying the "insider(s)" are incorrect. They have steered us exactly to where the near Supra would be. Everything they said would happen, actually happened. Anything that was supposed to happen but didn't, they reverted back to their original statement. In regards to the CGI block discussion, word was that that was only for the GRMN, but during Goodwood last summer 2018 (apparently the normal car had it as well when speaking to Toyota personnel). There was a lot of information thrown around but I must disagree where you said they were fabricated and false. It cannot be more untrue because they tried their best updating us.

You may not realize but some of the stuff that I have found out about Lexus has come from some of those insiders. And they came true.
 

mikeavelli

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Guys no more replying for personal remarks going forward.

I agree with above, what was rumored is pretty much what we got. I think a couple things that changed was a lower price with the I-6 and lower power as most were expecting the full 380. Though Toyota did say more variants of the car are coming.

Let's all be mindful in a world full of SUV's including Toyota/Lexus, they debuted 3 new or updated RWD coupes today. Pretty amazing this day and age.
 

MichaelL

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I actually much prefer the interior design of the Supra - I like the dash being flatter and more symmetrical, vs how it's slanted towards the driver in the Z4.

With regard to interior and exterior design, Toyota did a great job :thumbsup:
I like the look of the car, both inside and out. My biggest gripe is the lack of a stick shift. I am not just a talker, I drive a 2015 stick shift car. For this type of car, a sports car, it needs a stick. This isn't a big sedan where a stick isn't required. I hope it comes later otherwise there is nothing here for me....
 

Gecko

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I didn't mean to make two posts back to back but I saw this one as well. I am not sure about the admins doing that but I'll try to delve more myself. I'm sure you have seen me being involved in that forum.

However it is a big N O when you're saying the "insider(s)" are incorrect. They have steered us exactly to where the near Supra would be. Everything they said would happen, actually happened. Anything that was supposed to happen but didn't, they reverted back to their original statement. In regards to the CGI block discussion, word was that that was only for the GRMN, but during Goodwood last summer 2018 (apparently the normal car had it as well when speaking to Toyota personnel). There was a lot of information thrown around but I must disagree where you said they were fabricated and false. It cannot be more untrue because they tried their best updating us.

You may not realize but some of the stuff that I have found out about Lexus has come from some of those insiders. And they came true.

I don't want to create a cross-forum war, so if you have any other questions about the things that took place on SupraMKV, feel free to PM me.

It's easy for any of us, regardless of brand or car, to get jazzed up about new models, speculate and share what we think might happen. I do it, most of us do and it's in the spirit of excitement and fun. Perhaps it is Toyota's fault, and they had some last minute changes that increased the weight and decreased the HP - which made those insiders look like they had bad information. Perhaps folks added their own context/assumptions, as often happens. I think we all wanted to assume the best!

One thing I know for sure is that Toyota and Lexus are both companies in a constant state of flux with regard to management changes, product planning, organizational alignment, pressure between Japan and USA, and more. There's a lot going on and I think it would be hard for anyone on the outside to make inferences about exactly what's going on inside. This car has only been further complicated with an extended development time and partnership with another OEM. All of this just opens up the vacuum for more and more speculation - I don't think it's anyone's fault.

It seems that the rumor of a 3,200lb version might have come from the Japan-only (I think) 197hp 4cyl spec car. However, right up until the words came out of Akio's mouth on stage yesterday morning, most folks were claiming 370-382hp and a curb weight around 3,200lbs. Then we all know what we got: 335hp and 3,400lbs.

Your thought about the block above seems incomplete - or did I misunderstand something? IMO, creating a different block design for an even lower volume, high performance version seems unlikely, but we will see.
 

spwolf

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Guys no more replying for personal remarks going forward.

I agree with above, what was rumored is pretty much what we got. I think a couple things that changed was a lower price with the I-6 and lower power as most were expecting the full 380. Though Toyota did say more variants of the car are coming.

Let's all be mindful in a world full of SUV's including Toyota/Lexus, they debuted 3 new or updated RWD coupes today. Pretty amazing this day and age.

Only thing I hate about Supra is that all electronics inside are from BMW parts bin, even if the actual interior is "completely" different. But I understand why they had to do that.

As to the performance, their torque is almost the same, so I dont think their real life performance will be much different... One of the mags mentioned that Supra uses European engine with particle filter in every market, while BMW strips the filter for US market, hence the difference in tunes (Euro Z4 has same 335hp engine).

In any case, for BMW fans this seems like a perfect car - better driving, lighter, $15k cheaper version of hairdresser Z4, backed by Toyota warranty and dealership network/prices.

As to Toyota debuting 3 coupes, yep... And those updates made RC-F look crazy good... so you can have it both ways with TMC these days, if you have $50-$60....
 
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Naw there's no war. I'm simply saying rest assured these guys don't want to spread anything false to any of us. It really isn't anyone's fault and we are all chill. LE and SupraMkV forums always refer to each other so much I simply say in my mind they're almost like sister forums.

Regarding Lexus, insiders from there were able to tell me more about the development of the future F cars and Lexus in general. :) It turned out to be true.
 
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Gecko

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2020 Toyota Supra: striking a balance on power and weight
Product manager tells us how 4mm was crucial to perfect 50:50 distribution

2020-toyota-supra-1.jpg


After Toyota unveiled its long-awaited 2020 Supra at the 2019 Detroit Auto Show, we made our way onstage to take a closer look and ask a couple of questions about the car. First and foremost, we had hoped to figure out how the Supra, though with less power than the BMW Z4 from which it borrows its engine, managed a faster stated 0-60 time than the Bimmer. We found Ben Haushalter, Toyota's senior manager of product planning, who was willing to yield to our inquiries — even if, in the meantime, BMW adjusted its own 0-60 time for the 3.0-liter Z4, to be quicker (on paper at least) than the Supra, making our original question somewhat moot.

The first thing we asked was why the Supra was down on power from the Z4.

Ben Haushalter: So when we developed the car, we weren't necessarily putting both vehicles together, from a development standpoint. We developed the [Supra] from a holistic perspective, so that the engine is balanced to the chassis, and vice versa. We feel right now that the 335 [horsepower] and 365 pound-feet of torque is quite good for what the car is from a power-to-weight ratio, from 0-60 acceleration standpoint. It's very balanced. It's a sports car methodology that we share with 86. The engine and chassis are in harmony with each other, and that development methodology is shared by the same Chief Engineer [Tetsuya Tada] between both cars.

John Beltz Snyder: Was it purposefully detuned to fit better with the —

BH: To fit better. It's not purposefully detuned. 335 is kind of the sweet spot right now with how the car handles.

JBS: Is it geared differently than the BMW, too?

BH: No it's — we don't know the details on BMW's final gearing, so I can't comment on that.

JBS: Can you tell me a little more about the gearbox that's in this car?

BH: It's a ZF eight-speed automatic, 8HP, that's common throughout the industry.

JBS: What did you do to save weight in this car?

BH: There's a lot of technology involved in weight savings. A lot of aluminum. The hood, front doors, both the inner and outer structure are aluminum. The whole front suspension is built out of aluminum, the control arms, the knuckle. The engine cradle is aluminum as well as a large cross-body shear panel on the front of the car is all aluminum. The rear hatch on the back of the car is actually a composite — polypropylene and glass fiber material. Numerous body braces around the car are all aluminum as well.

JBS: Is there anything else about the car's development — like, I know you strove for a 50:50 weight balance.

BH: Yep. Achieved that.

JBS: How did you get there?

BH: The engine placement in the car, there's a little bit of a story there. In the original packaging layout, the engine was about four millimeters further forward than it is now, and we weren't hitting that perfect 50:50 weight distribution. So late in the development of the program, we actually moved the engine back to get to that 50:50 split that was really important from a handling and balance standpoint. As well as in the choice of the materials for the suspension. So the front is all aluminum, for light weight, and the rear actually has more steel in it to balance out the mass throughout the car.

JBS: What's next for the Supra, is there [both laughing] — I know you can't talk about —

BH: Future product, we can't comment on — standard comment — but rest assured, lifecycle management will be a big part of this vehicle program.


Source: https://www.autoblog.com/2019/01/15...-a-balance-on-power-and-weight/#slide-7499591

Some further insight on the power difference between Z4 and Supra.
 

mediumhot

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My two cents, while I think the power numbers might underwhelm I think for 56k loaded its pretty good and surely tunable a bit. I think the interior is nice, the exterior is nice as well and there is a bit of nostalgic value. What was rough is when someone told me the 370Z has 332hp and starts at 29k.

I got nothing against the car at all, it's fine. If I have to cherry pick my biggest complain would be the short length of the car. It needs extra 5-6 inches at the back for FT-1 design to really work wonders.
 
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It's been a long time since I bought a car based on published "Specs". I learned my lesson that they usually tell very little about a car's actual performance or fun to drive factor. So I am going to wait until we start seeing some actual comprehensive driving reviews of production cars. And not just from the American publications, they sometimes seem too entirely focused on "steering feel", to the extreme.
What I think helped the MKIV Supra initially was how it stacked up to all of its competitors. It pretty much crushed them in actually performance, not so much published specs. And it was very expensive for the time...for a Toyota. Then later it was the tunability that kind of made it a legend.
So I don't think the price is too out of line, and I'm confident that the real world performance is going to be awesome. Styling is subjective so I won't even comment on that (except that I really like almost all previous Supras).
Also, I use to prefer manual transmission cars because automatics were pretty awful and usually sapped performance and power. These new automatics do such a much better job than most people could ever do with a manual. I'm good with the transmission in this car. I can still feel "at one with the car" :)
Unfortunately though I won't even bother test driving with this car. I actually need at least small jump seats in the back. That's where our dogs ride.
 
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supra93

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https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-sh...904857/new-toyota-supra-nurburgring-lap-time/

The Toyota Supra's Chief Engineer Thinks It Could Run a 7:40 Lap at the Nurburgring

Tetsuya Tada says the automaker has not done a timed lap at the 'Ring, but speculates his car could handily beat the Z4's lap time.

Nurburgring lap times have become a crucial data point for high-performance vehicles. Automakers have claimed 'Ring lap records for everything from hybrid hypercars to front-drive hatchbacks and even SUVs.

So it's a little bit surprising that Toyota hasn't publicized an official Nurburgring lap time for the 2020 Supra. But at the 2019 North American International Auto Show in Detroit, Supra chief engineer Tetsuya Tada hinted at what he believes the new sports car will be capable of achieving at the 'Ring.

"We haven't had an official time attack yet," Tada told R&T through an interpreter. The engineering boss explained that the car would likely run into its 155-mph speed limiter on the Nurburgring's lengthy straightaway, hampering its lap time. "One day, perhaps, we cut the speed limiter and try the time attack," he said. "But even just driving it as it is, it's really fast. On the old course, it's very easy to break eights—7:50, 7:40. It will do that easily."

Compare that to the new BMW Z4, which was developed alongside the new Supra. The two cars share a platform, and their suspension and braking components are nearly identical. They offer the same 3.0-liter turbo straight-six engine and eight-speed automatic transmission, though the top-spec Z4 M40i makes 382 horsepower and 369 lb-ft, compared to the Supra's 335 horsepower and 365 lb-ft.

Tada says the hardtop-only Supra is lighter and more rigid than the soft-top BMW, which could explain how the Supra out-accelerates the Z4 (a 4.1-second 0-60 sprint, compared to 4.4 for the BMW). And while BMW has not claimed an official Nurburgring lap time for the Z4, German publication Sport Auto ran a 7:55 in a preproduction Z4 M40i.

Of course, there's only one way to find out what the Supra can do at the Nurburgring. Consider this our plea: Toyota, take it to the 'Ring for an official timed lap.
 

Ian Schmidt

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I actually much prefer the interior design of the Supra - I like the dash being flatter and more symmetrical, vs how it's slanted towards the driver in the Z4.

With regard to interior and exterior design, Toyota did a great job :thumbsup:

Yeah, the major benefit of the Supra is that it looks the part (and Mike's renders with it lowered on Vossens are sick!). The Z4 is weird and ugly, although it's still better than other recent BMW designs.

The electronics being BMW bring some disadvantages as well: no Toyota Safety System and no Gen 10 infotainment with free CarPlay/Android Auto. BMW is infamous for charging a monthly fee to access CarPlay; will that apply to the Supra as well?
 
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With the screen above the console, I am wondering how the lighting will affect visibility. Curious as to why they didnt do the BMW or Lexus trademark infotainment decor.
 

spwolf

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With the screen above the console, I am wondering how the lighting will affect visibility. Curious as to why they didnt do the BMW or Lexus trademark infotainment decor.

lots of new Toyota's actually have something similar, above the dash, just would be a Toyota unit, not BMW one.
 

ssun30

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I stopped caring about the Supra program the moment I heard it will be a BMW chassis and BMW powertrain. All those who believed in the obviously false 'insider information' on 'specific tune' or 'iron block' are simply delusional. They should just ask a simple question: if Chevrolet called Ferrari to build them a mid-engine Corvette, and put their fancy F1 gearbox and V12 engine in it, and by the way sell it for $100k, how would Ferrari respond? "F off. "

There is just no chance in hell BMW would allow their latest and greatest in a competitor's car which will be sold at a lower price. I am not surprised at all the engine is a standard B58 unit with 335hp and the ZF 8 speed. Toyota is at BMW's mercy in this partnership, and they are just asking for humiliation by stating 'we cannot justify a sports car program without collaborating with someone else'. And that from the mouth of the richest car company in the world. Did Ford ask FCA to share the Hemi engine so they can make a Mustang Hellcat? Did Chevy even think about asking Ferrari to help them building the mid-engine Corvette? Heck, even the 'flop of the decade' NSX was completely original and actually uses state-of-the-art technology derived from Honda's racing program. What does Toyota has to offer on the Supra? They keep touting how well the chassis is tuned, are they trying to make an impression they are a tuner shop? It's not their car. They also keep saying they parted way with BMW long ago to somehow show the originality of the Supra, but how is that a good thing? Doesn't that mean the specs for BMW-supplied parts are locked in a long time ago and are thus obsolete in 2019?

Toyota usually doesn't care about press coverage unless it's quality or safety related because most of their products sell themselves. But sports cars do need good press to be successful. How many reports have you seen calling it 'the BMW Supra'? See the problem here? When you, as a maker of grocery-getters and haven't built a sports car in two decades, ask for somebody who has a huge reputation in the sports car world to build you a sports car, who would people give credit to?

To be clear, I will not question the engineering aspect of the car. I still couldn't understand how they manage to pull off a 50:50 weight distribution and lower CoG than the 86 using literally the worst powertrain layout possible. For that, I give them full credit. I will also not question it being a nice sports car with a good balance of daily drivability and raw track performance. But that is not the point here. The program is very badly managed and didn't deliver what they really need to. They made the terrible mistake of waiting too long to 'justify the program' and ended up with an idea that didn't really work. And to make it worse the program fell into a development hell with delays. And during this process they missed the opportunity and is launching the Supra among a recession in car and coupe sales.

Now just think about it, six years ago they decided to put the FT-1 concept into production. At that time what did they have in development? A promising high strength RWD platform, a twin-turbocharged V6 engine (the claim 'Supra must have Inline-6' is laughable, how many people are complaining that the R-35 GT-R had a V6?) with at least 300kW and is compact enough to be packaged into a FMR layout, a ten speed automatic transmission, and all of these come with cost savings from a revolutionary concept that goes beyond part sharing and lean manufacturing. They literally have every component needed to make a good sports car that could be ready in five years.

It's what the Supra could have been that pains me, though to be honest, I don't really care. I couldn't buy one in my country anyway.
 

Gecko

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The program is very badly managed and didn't deliver what they really need to. They made the terrible mistake of waiting too long to 'justify the program' and ended up with an idea that didn't really work. And to make it worse the program fell into a development hell with delays. And during this process they missed the opportunity and is launching the ______ among a recession in car and coupe sales.

Kind of sad how many ToMoCo models this entire statement speaks to - not just Supra.
 

Ian Schmidt

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Kind of sad how many ToMoCo models this entire statement speaks to - not just Supra.

On the flip side, when the recession ends, they'll be ready to go with a great lineup on TNGA. If/when cars make a serious sales comeback they'll reap a lot of benefits and Ford/GM will be screwed because they let an (admittedly long-lasting) fad dictate long-term decision making.
 

spwolf

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Kind of sad how many ToMoCo models this entire statement speaks to - not just Supra.

or does it? Toyota is by far the most profitable manufacturer in the world for 2018.

So I say they are doing it right and not wrong, because proof is in the pudding.

And in the meantime they just released new Rav4 and new Highlander is coming in few months... I say they are poised to strengthen their #1 status.
 

Gecko

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or does it? Toyota is by far the most profitable manufacturer in the world for 2018.

So I say they are doing it right and not wrong, because proof is in the pudding.

You can always cherry pick models to make the case either way, as you have done. Regardless of that, LS, LC, delayed LX, delayed Land Cruiser, delayed Tundra, delayed Sequoia, delayed 4Runner, and delayed GX are huge missed opportunities. You could loop Tacoma into that too.