MKV Toyota Supra Master Thread
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Joaquin Ruhi
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Idk if this means anything, but a teaser for GT6 update.
Looks to me like (left to right) Toyota 2000GT, Mk4 Supra and potential Mk5 Supra.
Idk if this means anything, but a teaser for GT6 update.
is that GT:S? Anyway, they often do concept cars, as well all know.
mikeavelli
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Triple LED headlights? Throwback a bit to the MKIV?
Tragic Bronson
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Wallpaper for sure
Gecko
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I just read through that thread. If this stuff is true, this will be Toyota's biggest blunder in the last 20 years and they need to call the car something other than "Supra."
335hp for $50k is a joke. The Mustang, Camaro, Corvette, Z and Cayman are going to eat this car alive and it'll make Toyota the laughingstock of the performance car world.
Remember Honda is about to come out with a mini-NSX sportscar combining the 300hp 2.0L turbo 4 with hybrid motors.
335hp for $50k is a joke. The Mustang, Camaro, Corvette, Z and Cayman are going to eat this car alive and it'll make Toyota the laughingstock of the performance car world.
Remember Honda is about to come out with a mini-NSX sportscar combining the 300hp 2.0L turbo 4 with hybrid motors.
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Not the end of the day if this car is indeed offered in two tiers: the 'Celica' tier and the 'Supra' tier. This information could be for the 'Celica' only. 335hp just makes no sense on GR's flagship.
And never take 'insider info' too seriously. How could you trust people with such poor integrity and have no concern for legal consequences? I call 'a trusted and always accurate insider source' BS because real insiders know how to let out non-critical information that will not get themselves into trouble.
It maybe not priced that high. The post says "distinctly lower than BMW". Wishfully thinking, but $40kish range makes more sense.
Sounds like its not happening.
https://www.motor1.com/news/228905/baby-nsx-not-happening/
https://www.carscoops.com/2018/02/baby-nsx-nice-wont-happen-says-acura-executive/
Gecko
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I have followed Supra development for years and there are multiple sources and leaks saying similar things - and they have for several months. I will be more surprised if this info turns out to NOT be true.
As I've said all along, I don't understand how Toyota develops a brand new engine series and has a top shelf 3.5L TT V6 with 415hp, but then they just use mainstream BMW motors in their flagship sports car. So disappointing.
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Gecko
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Any way you want to slice it, this car is going to have a MASSIVE numbers problem.
Ford Mustang Ecoboost:
$25,585
310hp, 320 lb-ft of torque (I4)
3,532lbs
Ford Mustang GT:
$35,095
460hp, 420lb-ft (V8)
3,705 lbs
Chevrolet Camaro
$25,095
275hp, 284lb-ft (I4)
3,339 lbs
Chevrolet Camaro 1SS
$37,000
455hp, 455lb-ft (V8)
3,685 lbs
Chevrolet Corvette
$55,495
455hp, 455 lb-ft (V8)
3,298 lbs
Nissan 370Z
$29,990
332hp, 270 lb-ft (V6)
3,333 lbs
Porsche Cayman
$55,300
300hp, 280 lb-ft (I4)
2,943 lbs
Toyota Supra "3oi"
$XX,XXX
~250hp, ~260 lb-ft (I4)
Toyota Supra "40i"
$XX,XXX
~335hp, 330 lb-ft (I6)
It's underpowered at the $25-32k price point ("30i" model) and underpowered at the $35k+ price point ("40i" model). I have a feeling this car will come in around 3,300lbs.
Furthermore, when you consider that the audience for this type of car is generally enthusiasts, many of them (us) will know exactly what this car is under the sheetmetal. Most people who bought Supras bought them because they were over-engineered, rock-solid reliable and the 2JZ could take many times the power it made stock with easy mods.
Now, Toyota thinks those same people are going to come back to buy a car based on BMW's entry level roadster, with questionable reliability and engines you can get in a 2 series?
DOA.
Any way you want to slice it, this car is going to have a MASSIVE numbers problem.
Ford Mustang Ecoboost:
$25,585
310hp, 320 lb-ft of torque (I4)
3,532lbs
Ford Mustang GT:
$35,095
460hp, 420lb-ft (V8)
3,705 lbs
Chevrolet Camaro
$25,095
275hp, 284lb-ft (I4)
3,339 lbs
Chevrolet Camaro 1SS
$37,000
455hp, 455lb-ft (V8)
3,685 lbs
Chevrolet Corvette
$55,495
455hp, 455 lb-ft (V8)
3,298 lbs
Nissan 370Z
$29,990
332hp, 270 lb-ft (V6)
3,333 lbs
Porsche Cayman
$55,300
300hp, 280 lb-ft (I4)
2,943 lbs
Toyota Supra "3oi"
$XX,XXX
~250hp, ~260 lb-ft (I4)
Toyota Supra "40i"
$XX,XXX
~335hp, 330 lb-ft (I6)
It's underpowered at the $25-32k price point ("30i" model) and underpowered at the $35k+ price point ("40i" model). I have a feeling this car will come in around 3,300lbs.
Furthermore, when you consider that the audience for this type of car is generally enthusiasts, many of them (us) will know exactly what this car is under the sheetmetal. Most people who bought Supras bought them because they were over-engineered, rock-solid reliable and the 2JZ could take many times the power it made stock with easy mods.
Now, Toyota thinks those same people are going to come back to buy a car based on BMW's entry level roadster, with questionable reliability and engines you can get in a 2 series?
DOA.
No surprised there. Toyota/Lexus isn't too competitive IMO. Look no farther than the GS-F.
So far rumors mills are saying:
1. No to either 4 cylinder models for US.
2. As poster above stated: higher output 4 cylinder will use Celica name and basically replace the 86. While the 6 cylinder model will bear the Supra nameplate.
As far as weight goes. The Outgoing Z4 comes in about 3,400lbs. I believe the newer models that have gone to the CLAR platform have saved off about 200lbs+. Also weight saving for just being a coupe vs a drop top. Don't shoot the messenger, but SupraMKV's insider is hinting at around 3,000lbs.
I would say that is true for the 2nd hand market when it comes to the MKIV. Personally I brought mines because I loved its timeless styling.
Don't know, we'll just have to wait and see.
Americans sell underpriced high power sports cars just like Chinese sell underpriced high spec smartphones, both are destructive behaviors in a free market (just look at how destructive the Mustang is to the EU sports car market). Literally any sports car made by anyone these days is uncompetitive compared to these abnoramlly cheap American sports cars with excessive power. I wonder how they do it though, since these cars are not made at some exploitative sweatshop in Shenzhen.
Also, a 255hp 86 replacement kind of makes sense, as long as it weighs less than 3,000lbs and costs ~30k. It is at the very least better than the arguably uncompetitive 86.
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F1 Silver Arrows
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Gecko, I see it in another way. I will explain why, despite having so many setbacks, it will be a fantastic niche product, and while it may not have the "god-like status" that we would like from the new Supra, it will still be a good car.
You mention about the 415 HP Twin-Turbo V6 that they have "shelved" and have chosen a BMW motor instead. I don't think Toyota would ditch their own creation that easily to go for a BMW motor. Toyota knows what Supra enthusiasts want, and that is a Twin-Turbo I6 (not V6 or F6 or any of that jazz, simply because of the iconic Supra harmonics, sound and that certain ability to do wonders in terms of balance), RWD, a long hood and one hell of a taut chassis (the ability to tune has a factor in here too). I get it, and you're 100% right on power. It is too low for a sports car of this caliber, and to have that legendary nameplate. However, my good sir, you're not looking at the whole picture. You made an assumption how this will be around 3300 pounds. First of all, I certainly hope that does not happen. If it does, the Supra will flat out FAIL. No way will someone like Tada and Akio allow for something like this to happen. A few insiders continue to mention that at most, it will weigh a little more than 3000 pounds, and in lesser models, under 3000 pounds, which is astonishing for a sports car of this caliber. Tada was so focused on the Supra being light on its feet. If you see some of the latest videos, it actually goes really fast around the Nordschleife. Quite impressive if you ask me. An insider also mentioned that the lowest spec I6 model for the new Supra outmached the Cayman and its Z4 twin by a few seconds. Imagine the GRMN or the higher spec one. They really focused on the MkV to be more about lightweight, thanks to BMW using a newer, lighter platform, and it being hardtop. Speaking of lightweight, that is another thing that enthusiasts in general (doesn't have to be Supra followers) desire in a sports car nowadays. How about we compare power to weight ratio shall we?
If we were to compare the purported power to weight ratios then it would look something like this:
MkV Supra: 3000 lbs/335 hp = 8.9552 lbs/hp
MkIV Supra (Twin-Turbo) : 3500 lbs/320 hp = 10.9375 lbs/hp
I call that impressive.
That low weight, decent power outputs (if the 335 hp will be the only one we will be getting, which I doubt), and newer technology, these are some positives IMHO. Now for power, I think the power should be fine, when you hear about the insiders discussing about the Supra. They did remove the backseats, which ruins that grand touring nature of the Supra, but I guess they're trying to be a niche product, 2 seat sports car. You mention reliability too, do you honestly think Toyota would throw themselves down the cliff in reliability? No way (hopefully not at least)! I personally believe that is a reason why they also took a long time to release the car. Apparently, while having some similarities with the BMW engine, it should have some Toyota parts too. I could be wrong, but this is what I suspect. Also the N55 block that they would be using can handle tuning and is apparently more reliable than their other engines. Plus, if they were to build their own in-house I6 just for the Supra, with all that expectations, first of all, too much money will be spent for just one engine, one car (hopefully more), and it is just downright expensive.
There are so many other things too, but I'll leave it there. There are some negatives however.
- Most likely there won't be a manual (which was important in a Supra)
- It shares a lot of internal components with the Z4
- Interior is relatively the same as the Z4
Essentially they did re-skin the Z4 although with some original Toyota parts. That does make me a little upset. They're a gargantuan company, you'd think they would spend a little more. Although, I do think they are saving for that Gazoo Concept that they released at the Tokyo Auto Salon not that long ago. Maybe.
To close, I get it Gecko. This is our only chance to prove ourselves that we can build a 6-cylinder and or higher that is a genuine, hardcore, purposeful sports car (not counting Lexus here because they're essentially their own identity now). If we fail after all these years, the Supra, which is probably the most well known JDM car ever, will also be the same car that show the world that Toyota is a failure, in so many aspects of being genuinely sporty nowadays, also failed replicating that legendary aura like the MkIV Supra had ever again. Have high hopes that Toyota won't mess up because every time they released a sports car, while having some flaws in some terms, they were simply amazing in terms of purpose.
EDIT: P.S: The Cayman is F4 not an I4. Have a good one :thumbsup:
You mention about the 415 HP Twin-Turbo V6 that they have "shelved" and have chosen a BMW motor instead. I don't think Toyota would ditch their own creation that easily to go for a BMW motor. Toyota knows what Supra enthusiasts want, and that is a Twin-Turbo I6 (not V6 or F6 or any of that jazz, simply because of the iconic Supra harmonics, sound and that certain ability to do wonders in terms of balance), RWD, a long hood and one hell of a taut chassis (the ability to tune has a factor in here too). I get it, and you're 100% right on power. It is too low for a sports car of this caliber, and to have that legendary nameplate. However, my good sir, you're not looking at the whole picture. You made an assumption how this will be around 3300 pounds. First of all, I certainly hope that does not happen. If it does, the Supra will flat out FAIL. No way will someone like Tada and Akio allow for something like this to happen. A few insiders continue to mention that at most, it will weigh a little more than 3000 pounds, and in lesser models, under 3000 pounds, which is astonishing for a sports car of this caliber. Tada was so focused on the Supra being light on its feet. If you see some of the latest videos, it actually goes really fast around the Nordschleife. Quite impressive if you ask me. An insider also mentioned that the lowest spec I6 model for the new Supra outmached the Cayman and its Z4 twin by a few seconds. Imagine the GRMN or the higher spec one. They really focused on the MkV to be more about lightweight, thanks to BMW using a newer, lighter platform, and it being hardtop. Speaking of lightweight, that is another thing that enthusiasts in general (doesn't have to be Supra followers) desire in a sports car nowadays. How about we compare power to weight ratio shall we?
If we were to compare the purported power to weight ratios then it would look something like this:
MkV Supra: 3000 lbs/335 hp = 8.9552 lbs/hp
MkIV Supra (Twin-Turbo) : 3500 lbs/320 hp = 10.9375 lbs/hp
I call that impressive.
That low weight, decent power outputs (if the 335 hp will be the only one we will be getting, which I doubt), and newer technology, these are some positives IMHO. Now for power, I think the power should be fine, when you hear about the insiders discussing about the Supra. They did remove the backseats, which ruins that grand touring nature of the Supra, but I guess they're trying to be a niche product, 2 seat sports car. You mention reliability too, do you honestly think Toyota would throw themselves down the cliff in reliability? No way (hopefully not at least)! I personally believe that is a reason why they also took a long time to release the car. Apparently, while having some similarities with the BMW engine, it should have some Toyota parts too. I could be wrong, but this is what I suspect. Also the N55 block that they would be using can handle tuning and is apparently more reliable than their other engines. Plus, if they were to build their own in-house I6 just for the Supra, with all that expectations, first of all, too much money will be spent for just one engine, one car (hopefully more), and it is just downright expensive.
There are so many other things too, but I'll leave it there. There are some negatives however.
- Most likely there won't be a manual (which was important in a Supra)
- It shares a lot of internal components with the Z4
- Interior is relatively the same as the Z4
Essentially they did re-skin the Z4 although with some original Toyota parts. That does make me a little upset. They're a gargantuan company, you'd think they would spend a little more. Although, I do think they are saving for that Gazoo Concept that they released at the Tokyo Auto Salon not that long ago. Maybe.
To close, I get it Gecko. This is our only chance to prove ourselves that we can build a 6-cylinder and or higher that is a genuine, hardcore, purposeful sports car (not counting Lexus here because they're essentially their own identity now). If we fail after all these years, the Supra, which is probably the most well known JDM car ever, will also be the same car that show the world that Toyota is a failure, in so many aspects of being genuinely sporty nowadays, also failed replicating that legendary aura like the MkIV Supra had ever again. Have high hopes that Toyota won't mess up because every time they released a sports car, while having some flaws in some terms, they were simply amazing in terms of purpose.
EDIT: P.S: The Cayman is F4 not an I4. Have a good one :thumbsup:
None of these will even matter if it is indeed a carbon copy of the Z4. Such a worst case scenario is so unfathomable that Akio will axe it immediately, better lose the money than getting the humiliation and completely ruining his masterplan.
At least the NSX is a 100% original flop.
I'm sure the interior will have some shared parts. But overall they will both look a little different. This is not the BRZ/86 and Miata/124 spider.
The Toyota and BMW will drive differently.
http://www.caradvice.com.au/588438/...anything-like-the-toyota-supra-bmw-boss-says/
Akio has already personally tested the prototype and provided his feedback.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/future-cars/a12635049/2019-toyota-supra-what-we-know/
The Toyota and BMW will drive differently.
http://www.caradvice.com.au/588438/...anything-like-the-toyota-supra-bmw-boss-says/
Akio has already personally tested the prototype and provided his feedback.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/future-cars/a12635049/2019-toyota-supra-what-we-know/