Lexus UX 250 and UX 250h Trademarks Registered in Australia

spwolf

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For comparison purposes, the current GS450h, a much smaller and lighter car than the S300 hybrid, is rated at 45.6mpg (UK gallons) and 145.6 g/km CO emission, which is still way too thirsty and tax-expensive for most Europeans. Lexus still has lots of engine downsizing to do if they're to catch up to the demands of the rest of the world.
Thats why GS has GS300h variant in Europe :).

And GS450h actually does really great against 3.0 diesels when it comes to emissions, this new version will do crazy good if it comes down from LC500h.

Lexus, like everyone else, should offer different variations of their engines, and let the buyers decide. This is what they have started with new 2.0t and 300h and should continue with 500h, 250h and others. There is no one formula that fits every market.

Europeans are all about NX, RX and future UX, talking about LS makes little sense... it has and will always have miniscule sales in Europe. IS is in better shape and GS will never be selling great unless they sell at big fleet discounts which is how people buy A6 and 5 series.

New NX and RX is where Lexus has to go in Europe and UX should also be a great step forward.
 

James

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Guys please respectfully disagree with one another. Lets all see where the other is person is coming from and offer our retort. There is no right or wrong we are all speculating based on recent information.

I'll be quite frank I used to hate "Cute Utes" and didn't understand the need to go downmarket. Now I do and my opinion has changed. We cannot deny that the market is moving to SUVs in all shapes sizes and forms. Audi already has a Q1, BMW a X1 and Benz a GLA. Those are not NX competitors head on and they are all selling quite well. Lets not forget the Range Rover Evoque as well.

Just recently I've experienced like my 4th flat tire because these Miami roads are garbage. It makes me want to skip a car and just get a SUV with nice meaty tires and a lifted view. The appeal continues to grow with me and now I understand more and more their popularity from a day to day perspective. Like many of you I've traveled all over and roads in many cities stink like Miami and thats just one reason someone might want a small SUV vs a small car.

Lexus opportunity cost is do they avoid this market to be seen as more prestigious? I don't think that argument works well because for pretty much two decades Lexus only sold 6/8 cylinders exclusively to the Germans 4 cylinder-V-12s and Lexus was never seen as more prestigious since they don't offer 4 cylinders.

Now Lexus does offer 4 cylinders and I don't think its hurt overall image at all.
I agree as much as I don't think I'd want something smaller than the NX there is a market for it and we don't have anything in it. We're being stupid to not have something compare to the X1, GLA, and Q1.
 

spwolf

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I agree as much as I don't think I'd want something smaller than the NX there is a market for it and we don't have anything in it. We're being stupid to not have something compare to the X1, GLA, and Q1.
Just a reminder - Q3 is the one competing with this, while Q2 will be one siže smaller.
 

meth.ix

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Here's the 2017 production C-HR. It looks really nice.

That wing tho!


It comes in Hybrid too, so there's more proof that the UX will be based on the C-HR.
 

spwolf

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well, as per this thread, they will be less related than Rav4 and NX, because it seems as if they wont share engines.... C-HR will have smaller engines (1.2t 115hp, 1.8h) while UX will have 2.0l, 2.5l and 250h.

I actually like C-HR a lot... finally a good looking Toyota. I hope they did a good job with interior too. I have felt for a while now that they have been making some Toyota's worse in order to leave space for Lexus... like Rav4 for instance or Prado or LX.
 

ydooby

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What? This is outrageous! I read this forum occasionally, but your post made me explode and sign up.
The Mercedes S300 BlueTec Hybrid LWB is more expensive than the V8 Lexus LS460, yet unlike Merc, even the small GS or the tiny IS both are worlds better in terms of refinement compared to the Merc. Refinement is a core element in what describes a luxury company's car stable. Lexus already have the small GS300h in UK. Emissions start from 104 g/km on the same fraudulent european NEDC cycle. BUT nobody pays attention to the crook European Union Federations, except from the brainwashed sheep . What really matters is real driving conditions, where GS300h consumption is comparable to IS300h 6.3l/100km or 37 mpg US (45 mpg UK). IS300h is already cheap and very small for a luxury car.
I feel that Lexus has become a victim by paying attention to the Germans jeopardizing the term Luxury and introducing cars like CT or NX to compete with the German trio "farm tractors". Maybe it is time for Toyota to introduce a real luxury brand after all, while leaving Lexus compete with incompetent cars like the following! Noooooooot!
Stop thinking like an American. Just because you call the EU crooks or fraud does not change the fact that Europeans have long been used to the relative lack of refinement of diesel engines even in luxury cars. The S300 hybrid with the aid of the near-silent electric motor is plenty refined during normal driving and does not feel any less refined than the S350 CDI, the best selling model of the range in Europe.

Lexus needs all the small displacement engines they can get and offer them across their entire range of offerings if they dream about ever being competitive there.
 

ydooby

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Thats why GS has GS300h variant in Europe :).

And GS450h actually does really great against 3.0 diesels when it comes to emissions, this new version will do crazy good if it comes down from LC500h.

Lexus, like everyone else, should offer different variations of their engines, and let the buyers decide. This is what they have started with new 2.0t and 300h and should continue with 500h, 250h and others. There is no one formula that fits every market.
I did not mention the GS300h only because I was responding to the suggestion that the LS should not be offered with anything below a V6 hybrid and was therefore using the GS450h to illustrate how uncompetitive an LS450h/LS500h would still be against the S300 hybrid for most Europeans. An LS300h or LS350h would help greatly there.
 

Gecko

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I don't understand what's so confusing about the powertrains. The 250 will probably have the same 2.5 liter engine of the IS 250, and the 250h will probably have the same engine as the CT, but with more power.
There's no way this will happen, in any form or fashion.

2.5L V6 is old and inefficient, has already been replaced by 2.0T and probably wouldn't fit in this chassis.

To say "same engine as CT with more power" doesn't really make sense. With how gasoline engines and electric motors are paired, you do not simply get "more power." This will be a different system all together. Related? Sure. But not just "same system with more power."
 

Gecko

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Some in this thread have touched on it already, but the reality is that the definition of luxury has changed and Lexus has to keep up.

There was a time when "luxury cars" had wood trim, leather interior, power windows, upgraded stereos and big engines.

Then in the late 90s, "luxury cars" got touch screen navigation systems, HID headlights and dual zone climate control.

Now, economy cars come with HID headlights, leather, navigation, dual zone climate control, etc. and luxury is less about physical size and big engines, and more about features, craftsmanship, technology and an overall ownership experience at any size or price. If anyone thought a decade ago that hybrids and plug-ins would become hot technology for luxury cars, many would have laughed. Now we have Tesla, multi-stage hybrid in LC 500h, the Porsche 918 Spyder, McLaren P1 and many manufacturers are already looking to hybrid systems for amazing performance.

If Lexus refuses to downsize engines and vehicles, they will quite simply be left behind. Period.

Do I necessarily like the downsized engine + forced induction trend? No, but I don't have any control over it, so all I can do is live with it. If you don't like it either, realize that Lexus is run as a for-profit business that is not 100% focused on the American market as it once was.

In my opinion, we are now getting better cars than ever - take a look around. If you sincerely think that Lexus has lost their way, I'm not quite sure what you think of Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Porsche, Lamborghini and others. You should probably buy a 2001 Cadillac STS and rock that until the wheels fall off.
 
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isanatori

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Stop thinking like an American. Just because you call the EU crooks or fraud does not change the fact that Europeans have long been used to the relative lack of refinement of diesel engines even in luxury cars. The S300 hybrid with the aid of the near-silent electric motor is plenty refined during normal driving and does not feel any less refined than the S350 CDI, the best selling model of the range in Europe.

Lexus needs all the small displacement engines they can get and offer them across their entire range of offerings if they dream about ever being competitive there.
Not even think about it! Until recently "experts" suggesting Lexus to introduce diesels if they want to be competitive! Where are these now? European consumers have no brain. They just follow the trend. If it was that simple that, Europeans care only about normal driving operation and have used the relative lack of refinement in their "luxury cars" then, Toyota would have introduced the Avalon hybrid or Crown hybrid in Europe, to compete with European "luxury" cars, by now. But the problem is that Toyota have been defrauded by the journalists that Europeans buy fun to drive cars and therefore tried to follow the trend and make Lexus fun to drive. In the mean time, The C300e that passed the moose test at speeds worse than 10k $ cars is shockingly praised in Europe today, by those who buried the revolutionary prius because it was not fun to drive 20 years ago!
Shockingly though, the same guys rave about the autonomous cars, because autonomous driving will kill "fun to drive" cars for ever! So much for their fun-to-drive driving preferences!
Lexus should be neither American, nor German. Lexus should be Japanese. Lexus if they want to move on, then they should stop following the farcical Germans. Lexus should turn its sight to become the future Toyota Century.
 

mikeavelli

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Stop thinking like an American.
European consumers have no brain..
Guys, lets not paint entire regions and a country as one way okay? We have many American's and Europeans on this site. Making such statements is not debating, its argumentative and holds no weight since its not true, its a huge exaggeration(s).

I'm going to reiterate below. We can all have a heated, passionate debate but lets drop the jabs. :)

Guys please respectfully disagree with one another. Lets all see where the other is person is coming from and offer our retort. There is no right or wrong we are all speculating based on recent information.
/QUOTE]
 

spwolf

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To say "same engine as CT with more power" doesn't really make sense. With how gasoline engines and electric motors are paired, you do not simply get "more power." This will be a different system all together. Related? Sure. But not just "same system with more power."
Speculating on 250h, what if they use same 1.8l, but use lion batteries with higher overall output and D4S. That would bring possibly 30hp extra to Prius powertrain... if it is 20hp extra from batteries, it would be way more significant upgrade than 2.0l engine while still being efficient.
 

spwolf

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I did not mention the GS300h only because I was responding to the suggestion that the LS should not be offered with anything below a V6 hybrid and was therefore using the GS450h to illustrate how uncompetitive an LS450h/LS500h would still be against the S300 hybrid for most Europeans. An LS300h or LS350h would help greatly there.
but LS500h would be very competitive, together with some crazy LS700h... I dont think anyone buys S300 hybrid actually.
 

spwolf

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At least in North America that is.
nobody is buying them in Germany either... I am not sure if they sell in some countries where there are huge tax breaks so you basically get the hybrid part for free, but they sure dont sell in Germany.

If we look for used german hybrids on biggest german website, there are handful of them total out of million vehicles available both new and used (something like cars.com).

VW has had some luck selling Golf-e in Norway with govt discounts but I never heard of S300 selling in numbers.
 

ydooby

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but LS500h would be very competitive, together with some crazy LS700h... I dont think anyone buys S300 hybrid actually.
The only reason no one in Europe is buying the S300 hybrid is because Europeans love diesels, subsidizing them in many countries and buying the diesel versions of most luxury cars when presented with choice. In fact I was tempted to suggest that Lexus should go head-on with the European makes by installing diesel engines across the board in order to really compete in Europe, but I refrained from saying so only because I knew how unpopular the suggestion would've been in this forum. In the long term, however, many European countries are gradually realizing the health implications diesels have on our respiration systems and are legislating to discourage the use of diesels in several phases, so when that happens in a larger scale Europeans will be incentivized to switch to hybrids, which is when Lexus will need to have a small displacement version of every model in the lineup ready.
 
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spwolf

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The only reason no one in Europe is buying the S300 hybrid is because Europeans love diesels, subsidizing them in many countries and buying the diesel versions of most luxury cars when presented with choice. In fact I was attempted to suggest that Lexus should go head-on with the European makes by installing diesel engines across the board in order to really compete in Europe, but I refrained from saying so only because I knew how unpopular the suggestion would've been in this forum. In the long term, however, many European countries are gradually realizing the health implications diesels have on our respiration systems and are legislating to discourage the use of diesels in several phases, so when that happens in a larger scale Europeans will be incentivized to switch to hybrids, which is when Lexus will need to have a small displacement version of every model in the lineup ready.
Reason S300 does not sell is that it is very expensive car that is not competitive within S class lineup and that S class buyers still like to buy strong engines... it is basically a PR for them.

As to the diesels, I dont think they are going anywhere, anytime soon. I would not be surprised if Lexus gets some diesels in next generation of vehicles. Toyota will build another 2.0l diesel and it will be competitive to be used in IS, GS, NX, etc.

While European volume is not large enough for them to make it only for Lexus, they do sell a boat load of diesels in Europe and worldwide. I see them doing them again and for Lexus.

We will see soon enough with new C-HR... it is being unveiled "today" and lets see if it has diesel or not. If it does, I see them doing Lexus diesels in the future. Toyota is not here to promote world peace, they sell vehicles.

Updated Rav4 got 2.0l from BMW together with Hybrid option. 2.0l is not compatible with Toyota AWD transmissions though so only FWD. They will have to build one for next model in 2018. Heck, they recently said at launch of new Hilux with new 2.4/2.8 GD diesels that they expect to sell 1 million diesel engines per year by 2020... thats not a small number at all.
 

spwolf

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Toyota Germany showing off C-HR production headlights... look pretty darn cool. I am glad finally Toyota Europe managed to get out of Toyota Japan's hands and to build a Toyota vehicle with full potential (and not leaving something for Lexus to fill, like with Rav4).

For people that dont know, Toyota has re-organized last year to put development of small cars into Toyota Europe's hand. Even before they gave more decision making to Toyota Europe when it comes to European vehicles and last year this was done for ALL small vehicles. C-HR is likely a first vehicle to be done with full decision making from Toyota Europe - which is why you have headlights like above, while you have sloping roofline with less rear space. Toyoda likely realized that Toyota Europe can do this better than Japan with C-HR (design was likely signed off 2 years ago).

We had talks about this for decades now. I have been working with Toyota Europe 14 years ago and there was always a list of things that customers complained about that Toyota Japan did not want to do and thought it was nonsense. Years later with Toyoda at helm, these things started happening at Lexus first and now with re-organization with small vehicles as well.

From small things like poor radio reception (big issue), to non-pressurized water jets, and then missing equipment like HIDs in RAV4 and Land Cruisers which finally we got after 20 years.

We have many special editions that try to dress up Toyota Japan's design failings, like Yaris Bi-Tone edition, or Rav4 Style edition (Black alcantara headliner, Half-Alcantara dash and rest of interior, big black wheels), etc, etc. I have big confidence from C-HR that next Toyota products (at least ones done in Europe) are going to be what we want, which is basically a lot more like Lexus and a lot less like utilitarian Toyota of past.
 

ydooby

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By the way I'm very surprised that no UX200t trademark was filed. Is Lexus afraid of putting turbo power in its entry level models (big mistake if so), or is Lexus simply dropping the "t" naming convention for its turbos and starting to emulate BMW's naming convention by simply using numbers corresponding to equivalent NA engine displacements, in which case the UX250 is simply a UX200t or UX180t in disguise?
 

spwolf

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By the way I'm very surprised that no UX200t trademark was filed. Is Lexus afraid of putting turbo power in its entry level models (big mistake if so), or is Lexus simply dropping the "t" naming convention for its turbos and starting to emulate BMW's naming convention by simply using numbers corresponding to equivalent NA engine displacements, in which case the UX250 is simply a UX200t or UX180t in disguise?
i think it is far simpler than that... only way to make it cheaper than NX is to put cheaper powertrain in it. Hence 2.0l and 2.5l NA engines as well as 250h. At the same time, C-HR will have smaller 1.2t and 1.8 HSD, as well as likely 1.8l NA for USA.
 
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