Lexus LF-1 Limitless Concept Megathread [LF Coming in 2023?]

[Gecko]

Copied from the homepage article, but there are some interesting nuggets from the Best Car article. Most interesting to me is that the car was delayed so that Lexus doesn't introduce it "half assed," and they want it to make the same type of market impact that the original LS made in 1989.

Best Car also reports that it will be built on a revised version of the GA-L platform, which is partially responsible for the delayed market introduction. Additional factors impacting the LF’s launch include final development of the new turbocharged V8, and most interestingly, an internal focus on making sure that the vehicle does not come to market “half finished.” Final product execution for the LF needs to be to Lexus flagship standards, and the article notes that Lexus is seeking the same type of market impact that was made with the original Lexus LS in 1989. That is a bold claim, but if the LF shakes up the ultra luxury crossover segment like the LS first did, we’ll say it was worth the wait.

I'm the loudest complainer about the absence of the LF/LF-1, but if it really comes as described and Lexus is putting the same level of thought and detail into it as they did with the original LS, it will be worth the wait. After a few years of "less than 100% execution" on some products, I'm happy to get Lexus' best product execution if that means delaying it another year.

Also... coincidence that LF-1 is very similar to "F1" as the original LS 400 was coded internally? Hmmm.

 

[maiaramdan]

@Gecko , I agree
There are 2 main things in this report made me happy
A) they didn't kill the LF-1 or turn it to LS as some reports here and there

B) TMC still committed to the V8 !

Those 2 are great news for me , and they means a lot

 

[Porsche prints money]

Too late. Nobody cares about a hybrid system from 2017 and a delayed V8 when they will have a few BEVs in the lineup in 2023. Surprised the project wasn't killed for a more ambitious one.

Agreed, if Lexus wants to shake up the SUV segment in 2023, only a flagship BEV will do. Unfortunately, another hybrid & reliable TTV8 will not steal the limelight when the Germans & Americans have already pivoted away from ICE to EVs.

 

[Gecko]

Too late. Nobody cares about a hybrid system from 2017 and a delayed V8 when they will have a few BEVs in the lineup in 2023. Surprised the project wasn't killed for a more ambitious one.

There is no way this would debut with the old hybrid system. It would absolutely be TTV6 + battery "600h" system, or possibly for certain markets, 2.4L turbo + hybrid "500h" system.

 

[Jonas]

Too late. Nobody cares about a hybrid system from 2017 and a delayed V8 when they will have a few BEVs in the lineup in 2023. Surprised the project wasn't killed for a more ambitious one.

Agree. To late for me.

 

[bogglo]

Never too late there are equal if not more percentage of people who still want V8 engines in their cars. Especially one from Lexus. And also who is to say it won't have a BEV variant.

 

[Gecko]

Let's also remember that EVs get something like 70% of the media mentions around automobiles but make up just 5% of all vehicles sold (2020). There is a real gap between perception and reality with EVs, and I am not discounting the fact that EV sales are rising or Tesla is successful, but saying, "If it doesn't come out with a best in class EV then it's DOA," is just not true and not aligned with reality.

Plenty of people are still skeptical of hybrids, let alone full blown BEVs. In America, the upside for this vehicle is significant as a hybrid and/or V8 compared to an EV. Should they have an EV? Yes. It's pretty clear Toyota's future product mix is a combination of traditional ICEs, hydrogen, hybrid + hydrogen, hybrid + gasoline ICE, PHEV and BEV, which is incredibly smart because different markets around the world want different options. This flexibility was built into TNGA on purpose.

However, the internal combustion engine has a lot of life left and is still in a clear majority of vehicles sold. Whatever your personal preferences are is fine, but let's not lose sight of the business case, which is what Toyota cares most about.

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

Let's also remember that EVs get something like 70% of the media mentions around automobiles but make up just 5% of all vehicles sold (2020). There is a real gap between perception and reality with EVs, and I am not discounting the fact that EV sales are rising or Tesla is successful, but saying, "If it doesn't come out with a best in class EV then it's DOA," is just not true and not aligned with reality.

Plenty of people are still skeptical of hybrids, let alone full blown BEVs. In America, the upside for this vehicle is significant as a hybrid and/or V8 compared to an EV. Should they have an EV? Yes. It's pretty clear Toyota's future product mix is a combination of traditional ICEs, hydrogen, hybrid + hydrogen, hybrid + gasoline ICE, PHEV and BEV, which is incredibly smart because different markets around the world want different options. This flexibility was built into TNGA on purpose.

However, the internal combustion engine has a lot of life left and is still in a clear majority of vehicles sold. Whatever your personal preferences are is fine, but let's not lose sight of the business case, which is what Toyota cares most about.

Exactly. The notion of ICE's being phased out within the next 5 years or even the next 10 years is laughable. In some countries, sure. But it's insanely foolish to have a POV from only one country and not bother looking at it in the grand scheme of things. There are continents that are dedicated to still having ICE vehicles because frankly speaking, most areas of the world pollute almost nothing compared to other countries, which for the latter, the transition to EV's makes sense.

North America, South America, Middle East, Japan/South Korea, Oceania, the more developed countries in Africa, and EVEN Europe aren't even fully prepared for an EV transition yet. And who's to say at that point, ICE's will cease to exist? EV technology still has a long ways to go and for so many people they're simply undesirable.

You can't force the rest of the world to transition to something unlike what other countries are doing. In fact, you'll get even more people going the opposite direction out of sheer spite. That's basic human nature. It all needs to happen organically, and I'm a betting man that even when the transition has occurred, we're still going to see a ton of ICE's for sale too. Particularly in North America.

People are willing to move to hybrids more and more as time passes but even then there aren't that many hybrid sales in comparison to ICE's in every single country bar China and the Scandinavian countries. Hybrids are what's going to take us into the near and relatively further future. It simply makes so much more sense and is nowhere near as jarring for the environment or even for manufacturers.

 

[mikeavelli]

One of the biggest impacts of the original LS was the price. So while this might be some sort of tech game changer I’m sure it will be priced accordingly as Lexus pricing is quite up there today. Because currently all the suv coupe things are old school mostly petrol or mild hybrids

 

[Porsche prints money]

Let's also remember that EVs get something like 70% of the media mentions around automobiles but make up just 5% of all vehicles sold (2020). There is a real gap between perception and reality with EVs, and I am not discounting the fact that EV sales are rising or Tesla is successful, but saying, "If it doesn't come out with a best in class EV then it's DOA," is just not true and not aligned with reality.

Hardly, a huge gulf exists between DOA & "shaking up the segment". The LF will likely sell well like other SUVs but not break any new ground like the original LS did. Unfortunately, Japan's dirty electricity grid post-Fukushima has left Toyota on the back foot when it comes to BEV development. Virtually every other automaker agrees hydrogen remains highly impractical for passenger cars. EV sales have already doubled this year in Europe, in line with expectations of exponential growth.

 

[Gecko]

Hardly, a huge gulf exists between DOA & "shaking up the segment". For one, EV sales have already doubled this year in Europe, aligning with expectations of exponential growth. The LF will likely sell well like other SUVs but not break any new ground like the original LS did. Unfortunately, Japan's dirty electricity grid post-Fukushima has left Toyota on the back foot when it comes to BEV development. Virtually every other automaker agrees hydrogen remains highly impractical for passenger cars.

Agreed on the first part, but there really isn't much like the LF-1 on sale today aside from maybe the Maserati Levante or Audi Q8. X6 and GLE are down 2-3 classes. GLS and X7 are completely different. Cayenne is very boring looking and I'm not sure you'd call it a flagship product. Urus is significantly more expensive.

The whole crossover coupe/crossover coupe flagship/flagship crossover segment is becoming quite fragmented by how each brand wants to approach it, but the "LF" recipe will be different from what others offer if it comes to production similar to the concept. If we get a 450hp/530lb-ft TT V6 hybrid and a 650hp TT V8 with dramatic interior and exterior style (say, like the LC 500 was in 2018) on a crossover, it will absolutely shake up the segment whether it's BEV, ICE, PHEV or something else.

The powertrain will only play one part of how this vehicle comes to market, and there should be a few options to suit buyer/market preferences. I'm sure BEV will be one - but there are plenty of people who have no interest in owning one at this point.

 

[mikeavelli]

Hardly, a huge gulf exists between DOA & "shaking up the segment". The LF will likely sell well like other SUVs but not break any new ground like the original LS did. Unfortunately, Japan's dirty electricity grid post-Fukushima has left Toyota on the back foot when it comes to BEV development. Virtually every other automaker agrees hydrogen remains highly impractical for passenger cars. EV sales have already doubled this year in Europe, in line with expectations of exponential growth.

Uhh has nothing to do with Fukushima and everything to do with them wanting to go with solid state drives which would really change the EV game. Also Toyota understands the importance of Petrol engines to jobs and has no intentions of dropping petrol just because of everyone else.

 

[Porsche prints money]

Agreed on the first part, but there really isn't much like the LF-1 on sale today aside from maybe the Maserati Levante or Audi Q8. X6 and GLE are down 2-3 classes. GLS and X7 are completely different. Cayenne is very boring looking and I'm not sure you'd call it a flagship product. Urus is significantly more expensive.

I wouldn't rule out the GLS & X7 so quickly, especially the higher trims. The GLS Maybach & AMG versions have both sold well. BMW's X8 will arrive this year, followed by a hardcore M variant, which will similarly sell like hotcakes.

The Aston Martin DBX also falls under the ¥20 million mark, undercutting both the Urus & Bentayga. Then you have the all-new upcoming Range Rover, another benchmark for the segment. Meanwhile, the Cayenne leads in driving dynamics from the base trim on up, not to mention brand equity. On the less expensive end, the Genesis GV80 competes very well on all fronts, with a GV90 in the works.

Cutting-edge tech aside, Lexus needs to considerably improve the packaging for its flagship platform for the LF to compete well. The segment remains very crowded, even if you ignore EVs.

Uhh has nothing to do with Fukushima and everything to do with them wanting to go with solid state drives which would really change the EV game. Also Toyota understands the importance of Petrol engines to jobs and has no intentions of dropping petrol just because of everyone else.

Mate, Akio Toyoda has gone on the record criticizing Japan's shift away from nuclear to coal after 2011 as counterproductive to BEV development. Petrol beats coal any day of the week, so the environmental & regulatory case for BEVs remains far weaker in Japan than in other OECD countries. Solid-state batteries (not SSDs) remain a distant moving target for investment, not at all mutually exclusive with preemptive EV R&D. The Germans prove you can practically manage employee & union interests while pivoting to EVs, with Audi already predicting similar margins for EVs versus ICE by 2023-24.

 

[Levi]

Agreed, if Lexus wants to shake up the SUV segment in 2023, only a flagship BEV will do. Unfortunately, another hybrid & reliable TTV8 will not steal the limelight when the Germans & Americans have already pivoted away from ICE to EVs.

I wouldn't rule out the GLS & X7 so quickly, especially the higher trims. The GLS Maybach & AMG versions have both sold well. BMW's X8 will arrive this year, followed by a hardcore M variant, which will similarly sell like hotcakes.

first you say dead on arrival because Germans moved to BEVs, then you say sell like hot cakes because X8/X8 M. what are you trying?

that is exactly what Lexus will do, BEV RZ and ICEV/HEV/PHEV LF. who cares if Germans will sell more, as long there is a Lexus alternative? that is the whole point, being able to have equivalent choice at Lexus for those that want to.

 

[Porsche prints money]

first you say dead on arrival because Germans moved to BEVs, than you say sell like hot cakes because X8/X8 M. what are you trying?

that is exactly what Lexus will do, BEV RZ and ICEV/HEV/PHEV LF. who cares if Germans will sell more, as long there is a Lexus alternative? that is the whole point, being able to have equivalent choice at Lexus for those that want to.

Trying to have a nuanced discussion, mate. You can buy the X8 this year, unlike the LF. Standards for the luxury segment will almost certainly skew electric in the next few years, if not already. Case in point, BMW plans to release a flagship EV sedan this year, after next month's Mercedes EQS. If Lexus could offer a competitive BEV version of the LF, that would shake up the segment more than another TTV8 in 2023.

 

[James]

Just when I was ready to say hey my next car won't be a Lexus the last few months Lexus has like become a new company!!! I need to do more research on some of these rumors as I'm not ready for a full coupe like SUV I do need a car with more space hence why I have been heavily looking into an X5 that has more of the normal SUV space but quick too but honestly it is nice to be able to think Lexus will eventually come out with something that can fit my/our as a LE family's needs! They are definitely late to the party and it is upsetting that we had to wait too long but as @Gecko said having something half ass is not what Lexus needs especially on a product that is a halo car. Now I have to go figure out how much they predict this car to be I've never done a Japanese to dollar calculation before!

 

[CRSKTN]

Just when I was ready to say hey my next car won't be a Lexus the last few months Lexus has like become a new company!!! I need to do more research on some of these rumors as I'm not ready for a full coupe like SUV I do need a car with more space hence why I have been heavily looking into an X5 that has more of the normal SUV space but quick too but honestly it is nice to be able to think Lexus will eventually come out with something that can fit my/our as a LE family's needs! They are definitely late to the party and it is upsetting that we had to wait too long but as @Gecko said having something half ass is not what Lexus needs especially on a product that is a halo car. Now I have to go figure out how much they predict this car to be I've never done a Japanese to dollar before!

Divide by ~100 if you're USD.

 

[CIF]

650 nm is very low.

Yes, I'm personally starting to get really annoyed and troubled by the lack of huge torque in Toyota and Lexus engines (assuming these numbers are true). Unless this engine is exclusively meant only for full F vehicles. On the subject of torque though, a big reason why Teslas sell has very little to do with them specifically being EVs, or all the technological gimmicks in the interior. Much of it is simply from the incredible feeling of the large amounts of instant torque the electric motors provide.

But it's insanely foolish to have a POV from only one country and not bother looking at it in the grand scheme of things.

Unfortunately that's what a small number of users here on LE have been doing for a quite a while.

North America, South America, Middle East, Japan/South Korea, Oceania, the more developed countries in Africa, and EVEN Europe aren't even fully prepared for an EV transition yet. And who's to say at that point, ICE's will cease to exist? EV technology still has a long ways to go and for so many people they're simply undesirable.

You can't force the rest of the world to transition to something unlike what other countries are doing. In fact, you'll get even more people going the opposite direction out of sheer spite. That's basic human nature. It all needs to happen organically, and I'm a betting man that even when the transition has occurred, we're still going to see a ton of ICE's for sale too. Particularly in North America.

People are willing to move to hybrids more and more as time passes but even then there aren't that many hybrid sales in comparison to ICE's in every single country bar China and the Scandinavian countries. Hybrids are what's going to take us into the near and relatively further future. It simply makes so much more sense and is nowhere near as jarring for the environment or even for manufacturers.

It's shocking how incredibly distorted things are with regards to EVs. The media and EV supporters are obsessively focusing the hype on all the EV positives while virtually never mentioning the significant negatives. EVs for example by their nature are poorly suited for certain vehicle segments. On a bigger picture, there are various other industries like the aviation and naval/maritime industries where EVs are completely impractical and thus will never be seriously considered there. That's just to name a couple of quick negatives.

Virtually every other automaker agrees hydrogen remains highly impractical for passenger cars. EV sales have already doubled this year in Europe, in line with expectations of exponential growth.

Sorry, but you are quite mistaken. GM, Honda, Hyundai, Toyota, a number of Chinese automakers, and some start-up western companies are all investing in hydrogen technology and supporting hydrogen technology on the passenger car side. Additional companies as well are also investing in hydrogen on the commercial side and other industries/categories. Many of the world's energy companies are investing into hydrogen. Also countries like China are partially pivoting away from an all-EV strategy and are diversifying and investing into hydrogen as well. Many Asian countries in fact are going with a partial hydrogen strategy or mostly all-in on hydrogen. Even Canada is going for a diversified approach by investing in both EVs and hydrogen. The worldwide consensus on EVs is very far from unanimous. Western Europe is not the whole world. Countries that are rapidly forcing EVs onto the market without there being organic consumer demand are going to have some problems in the future.

It's easy to have exponential growth if you're starting from almost zero.

 

[mikeavelli]

I wouldn't rule out the GLS & X7 so quickly, especially the higher trims. The GLS Maybach & AMG versions have both sold well. BMW's X8 will arrive this year, followed by a hardcore M variant, which will similarly sell like hotcakes.

The Aston Martin DBX also falls under the ¥20 million mark, undercutting both the Urus & Bentayga. Then you have the all-new upcoming Range Rover, another benchmark for the segment. Meanwhile, the Cayenne leads in driving dynamics from the base trim on up, not to mention brand equity. On the less expensive end, the Genesis GV80 competes very well on all fronts, with a GV90 in the works.

Cutting-edge tech aside, Lexus needs to considerably improve the packaging for its flagship platform for the LF to compete well. The segment remains very crowded, even if you ignore EVs.

Mate, Akio Toyoda has gone on the record criticizing Japan's shift away from nuclear to coal after 2011 as counterproductive to BEV development. Petrol beats coal any day of the week, so the environmental & regulatory case for BEVs remains far weaker in Japan than in other OECD countries. Solid-state batteries (not SSDs) remain a distant moving target for investment, not at all mutually exclusive with preemptive EV R&D. The Germans prove you can practically manage employee & union interests while pivoting to EVs, with Audi already predicting similar margins for EVs versus ICE by 2023-24.

Sorry I’m at a point in my career and relationship with the brand I don’t argue. Either you believe me or I’ll just ignore the post,

Covid-19 messed up the solid state debut but it is coming and it’s a game changer

Toyota's Solid-State Battery Prototype Is a Potential EV Game Changer

New technology brings electric cars closer to the convenience of their gas-powered counterparts.

www.motortrend.com

 

[Porsche prints money]

Sorry, but you are quite mistaken. GM, Honda, Hyundai, Toyota, a number of Chinese automakers, and some start-up western companies are all investing in hydrogen technology and supporting hydrogen technology on the passenger car side. Additional companies as well are also investing in hydrogen on the commercial side and other industries/categories. Many of the world's energy companies are investing into hydrogen. Also countries like China are partially pivoting away from an all-EV strategy and are diversifying and investing into hydrogen as well. Many Asian countries in fact are going with a partial hydrogen strategy or mostly all-in on hydrogen. Even Canada is going for a diversified approach by investing in both EVs and hydrogen. The worldwide consensus on EVs is very far from unanimous. Western Europe is not the whole world. Countries that are rapidly forcing EVs onto the market without there being organic consumer demand are going to have some problems in the future.

It's easy to have exponential growth if you're starting from almost zero.

I don't know of a country "all-in on hydrogen", much less green hydrogen. Australia's "hydrogen road" to Japan calls for burning brown coal, which hardly sounds appealing. GM recently scrubbed its ill-advised investment in Nikola's vaporware, while state incentives & corporate fleets have maintained some hydrogen R&D by Asian automakers, which remain focused on EVs. The Europeans have all but abandoned hydrogen for light vehicles, even after decades of R&D. Hydrogen has its uses, but batteries simply suit passenger cars very well. Most folks in the industry do agree on this point. EVs have doubled their market share in European sales from 6.5% to 13.6% this year, a considerable percentage given the nascent rollout of EVs so far.