Lexus Has Cancelled the GS Sedan

[LexsCTJill]

Will the ES get AWD like the Camry?

I think so But it will be the hybrid model IMO that gets a E-awd or something.

 

[Tragic Bronson]

If I would love to see a new GS F? Sure! But I don't see it as a profitable program... I think SUV's killed the GS, no one else...

SUVs killed it as much as Lexus themselves for not keeping the GS up to speed with the competition. Since the majority of the GS's were on lease, I'd be curious to see what the lease retention data on what early GS lessees got into next after the 3-4 years, and if they went to another Lexus or not. If I was in that situation, would I go from a 2013 to a 2016 model that was almost identical to the one that was turned in?

 

[Joaquin Ruhi]

Will the ES get AWD like the Camry?

Probably, and I suspect its debut was planned for the New York Auto Show in its original mid-April timetable. I doubt they'll wait all the way to the late August tentative reschedule of the NY Show, though. (In fact, I'm predicting its outright cancellation until 2021). Thus, expect a simple online or even news release reveal.

Don't get your hopes too high, though. As I've posted elsewhere on these forums, the Camry/Avalon AWD system is only offered in conjunction with the A25A-FKS non-hybrid 2.5-liter 4-cylinder engine (the non-hybrid TNGA-K Highlander's optional V6 AWD powertrain allegedly doesn't fit). Thus, expect the same for ES AWD, and it's the likely reason we saw an ES 250 trademark filing in the U.S. A major disappointment.

Having said that, the recent NX 450h+ gives me hope that, if done right, we might see an ES worthy of succeeding the GS after all. As I reckoned in our 2NX thread, it would use the plug-in hybrid version of the A25A-FXS 2.5-liter 4-cylinder engine producing 302 hp in the upcoming RAV4 Prime / Plug-In. Coupling that engine with an enthusiast-tuned (or variable suspension) AWD system could make an ES 450h+ a potentially interesting proposition. (And, no, an ES 450h+ trademark hasn't been registered yet).

 

[Tragic Bronson]

SUVs killed it as much as Lexus themselves for not keeping the GS up to speed with the competition. Since the majority of the GS's were on lease, I'd be curious to see what the lease retention data ison what early GS lessees got into next after the 3-4 years, and if they went to another Lexus or not.

I'll add to that this with something I dug up from 2017:

Reports also persist among automotive analysts that suggest the line may be discontinued when it comes up for renewal in a couple of years. In March, Lexus was rumored to have suspended development of the new GS that was supposed to appear for 2019, citing a crowded Lexus sedan lineup in a market favoring SUVs. But that's not the case according to the company.

Lexus GS Remains A Tough Find At Dealers

Customers in search of a Lexus GS may need to prepare to do some hunting around. In parts of the US, some GS models have

www.carsdirect.com

That to me says that any luxury sedan buyers couldn't find one or even know if it still existed, especially given the heavier presence of the SUVs and the ES on most dealer lots. I'm sure there were GSs, but I'll guess again that they were CPO, and likely the lease returned ones. And Lexus was lying that the rumors were false.

 

[maiaramdan]

@Joaquin Ruhi , agree maybe with the next generation the ES can be more agile

BUT

Whatever how much agility in FF it won't ever match FR one period

 

[internalaudit]

@Joaquin Ruhi , agree maybe with the next generation the ES can be more agile

BUT

Whatever how much agility in FF it won't ever match FR one period

Yay, 4IS it is then or 5, since we are talking progress at glacial speed.

 

[Levi]

AWD will not fix the ES' FWD overhang/proportions.

CUVs maybe killed the GS, but the important thing to point out is that the CUVs that killed the GS do not wear the Lexus badge. The RX did not kill the GS, it rather the ES will loose market to the NX and RX.

We'll see how well the ES will be doing in Europe compared to the GS. And we'll see how Genesis will be doing. 2030 we'll see if Lexus' strategy was right or not. Acura (not available in Europe) and Infiniti clearly failed in 2020.

 

[Carmaker1]

Thinking about the cancellation of this car, I am taken back to the origins of project 920L back in 2007 and its core days of design in 2008-09.

 

[LexsCTJill]

Personally speaking. I think people underestimate Toyota’s decision to cancel the GS. Not including the pandemic, the GS class of car is in a declining segment. Does anyone really believe sales will increase (based on first year of the current gen) if they introduce a new GS? Is the 5 series or E class doing higher sales vs the previous gen? I know it’s sad, but it is the right thing to do if the brand wants to survive. They can always bring it back.

 

[MichaelL]

Personally speaking. I think people underestimate Toyota’s decision to cancel the GS. Not including the pandemic, the GS class of car is in a declining segment. Does anyone really believe sales will increase (based on first year of the current gen) if they introduce a new GS? Is the 5 series or E class doing higher sales vs the previous gen? I know it’s sad, but it is the right thing to do if the brand wants to survive. They can always bring it back.

Why kill the GS instead of updating it? Make it competitive with the 5 series and E class, yes the numbers are down, but it isn't a viable segment worldwide? The LS is in a better segment? Lexus let the GS become stale, with weak engines, and mediocre gas mileage. It is as if they want the sedans to die by neglecting them, and then saying they don't sell.... I see quite a few of the GS sedans around the SF Bay Area, I almost never see the current LS.

 

[emptystreets130]

Why kill the GS instead of updating it? Make it competitive with the 5 series and E class, yes the numbers are down, but it isn't a viable segment worldwide? The LS is in a better segment? Lexus let the GS become stale, with weak engines, and mediocre gas mileage. It is as if they want the sedans to die by neglecting them, and then saying they don't sell.... I see quite a few of the GS sedans around the SF Bay Area, I almost never see the current LS.

Lexus let it go stale because of the ES and the consumer wants SUV. The ES and GS both competes in the same market regardless of however Lexus is categorizing the two vehicles. The journalist will compare both to the E class, 5 series, A6, etc. Even the 4th gen GS back in its development was threatened with cancellation by Akio Toyoda. He didn't want the GS but European and American dealerships wanted the GS.

I don't think the GS has mediocre gas mileage or a weak engine. It's in line with most bigger displacement v6 but I drive the GSh.

 

[MichaelL]

Lexus let it go stale because of the ES and the consumer wants SUV. The ES and GS both competes in the same market regardless of however Lexus is categorizing the two vehicles. The journalist will compare both to the E class, 5 series, A6, etc. Even the 4th gen GS back in its development was threatened with cancellation by Akio Toyoda. He didn't want the GS but European and American dealerships wanted the GS.

I don't think the GS has mediocre gas mileage or a weak engine. It's in line with most bigger displacement v6 but I drive the GSh.

Have you looked at the horsepower, gas mileage, and torque coming from BMW or MB with their 6 cylinder motors? That is who the competition is for the GS350 with the 5 series or E class....

 

[CRSKTN]

Lexus let it go stale because of the ES and the consumer wants SUV. The ES and GS both competes in the same market regardless of however Lexus is categorizing the two vehicles. The journalist will compare both to the E class, 5 series, A6, etc. Even the 4th gen GS back in its development was threatened with cancellation by Akio Toyoda. He didn't want the GS but European and American dealerships wanted the GS.

I don't think the GS has mediocre gas mileage or a weak engine. It's in line with most bigger displacement v6 but I drive the GSh.

Every time the answer for Lexus is some version of "they did XYZ instead" while all their competitors end up doing both.

Why is it one or the other. Why cant they do right by the GS, and put out some decent SUVs?

It's not like they have some insane diverse lineup. Look at the average age of their models.

Fewer models, less updates, less options.

 

[emptystreets130]

Have you looked at the horsepower, gas mileage, and torque coming from BMW or MB with their 6 cylinder motors? That is who the competition is for the GS350 with the 5 series or E class....

Yes. I6 and turbocharged. That's how they are getting the torque figures. You're comparing a V6 NA to a force induction I6. If Lexus, Toyota I should say, kept the I6 and shoehorn the 2jz-gte like their Japanese counterpart, then the outcome may have been different.

 

[MichaelL]

Yes. I6 and turbocharged. That's how they are getting the torque figures. You're comparing a V6 NA to a force induction I6. If Lexus, Toyota I should say, kept the I6 and shoehorn the 2jz-gte like their Japanese counterpart, then the outcome may have been different.

Yes, I am comparing a V6 to a straight 6 that has a turbo. Why? Because that is what is for sale... I didn't chose the engines the respective manufacturers did... I am doing what a consumer does, compare what is available. Nothing more. Maybe Lexus should have put the turbo V6 from the LS into the GS a couple years ago? IMHO, they should have and kept improving the GS through its lifecycle.

 

[mikeavelli]

AWD won't suddenly make the ES some GS like car. It wasn't built for sport. It was built to be sporty enough and to look sporty. We have a ES F-Sport. It is parked. It also is slower than the GS. At least is it takes regular gas hahaha.

I chatted with Gecko and I cannot state enough how sales are not everything. IF THERE WAS NO GS, MOST OF THIS SITE WOULDN'T BE POSTING HERE OR ANYWHERE. WE ARE THE SOUL OF THE BRAND. The GS changed my fucking life. I can't scream that enough. The GS is the Lexus that brought most of us together 15-20 years ago. It wasn't the ES. When I host events, its all GS/IS and one ES.

So I really am hurt and perplexed by this decision. And I have a youtube video coming.

 

[CRSKTN]

Lexus and Toyota management fundamentally misattributed Lexus' success to the wrong factors to some degree I think.

They never understood the image side of what drove sales in NA. How could they? Do you think anyone at Toyota who had any influence was aware of Biggie rapping about their cars? Or the SC rolling by in The Wire? It took until what, 2015 or 2016 until Akio realized people thought Lexus was boring.

Are you kidding me?!

It's a bunch of overly conservative, sheltered people surrounded by a largely homogeneous society and company, desperately trying to think of what a luxury car company should be instead of going out to find out (they are finally doing it with all the crossover projects).

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Lexus needs to be the leading edge R&D as it already is to some extent, but they need to completely disregard their existing ROCE benchmarks and stop ringfencing Lexus.

Lexus should serve as the spear tip for TMC, not be some awkward luxury cousin that has to stand on it's own two feet.

How do you look at the market, look at the competitors and say "you know what, I could use my considerable size to create a monstrous and hugely competitive luxury brand that drives benefits in all our businesses, but instead let's treat it like a startup and itll need to justify its existence ringfenced from this giant profit machine we have going".

Have a few core high end models that embody the best you can do.
Have step down products that focus on different price points, niches, and being entry points.

Give me an attractive car I can option to be ultra luxury, ultra sporty, or both, but makes concessions for price by reducing focus on the rear seat. That's the IS/GS replacement.

Give me another version, but which prioritizes passengers in general, that's the ES.

All of the above is the LS, and then some.

Give me the small city super compact high end car, that's the LF SA Yaris derivative.

The step up affordable utility hatch with great finishings for the price point, that's the UX.

The NX becomes the workhorse crossover midsize SUV 4 or 5 seater with more of a focus on styling and technology.

The RX becomes an upscale 7 seater family hauler at a good price point.

GX becomes niche offroad weapon.

LX/LF-1 some flagship pairing of Escalade and LS wagon type SUVs.

Then you've got the coupe lineup which really just needs convertibles and the LCF finally.

 

[LexsCTJill]

AWD won't suddenly make the ES some GS like car. It wasn't built for sport. It was built to be sporty enough and to look sporty. We have a ES F-Sport. It is parked. It also is slower than the GS. At least is it takes regular gas hahaha.

I chatted with Gecko and I cannot state enough how sales are not everything. IF THERE WAS NO GS, MOST OF THIS SITE WOULDN'T BE POSTING HERE OR ANYWHERE. WE ARE THE SOUL OF THE BRAND. The GS changed my fucking life. I can't scream that enough. The GS is the Lexus that brought most of us together 15-20 years ago. It wasn't the ES. When I host events, its all GS/IS and one ES.

So I really am hurt and perplexed by this decision. And I have a youtube video coming.

So question for you? Why didn't you a GS-F if a GS is so special in your heart of hearts.

So I really am hurt and perplexed by this decision. And I have a youtube video coming.

I think some do not realize how much this segment will decline.

 

[Tragic Bronson]

I chatted with Gecko and I cannot state enough how sales are not everything. IF THERE WAS NO GS, MOST OF THIS SITE WOULDN'T BE POSTING HERE OR ANYWHERE. WE ARE THE SOUL OF THE BRAND. The GS changed my fucking life. I can't scream that enough. The GS is the Lexus that brought most of us together 15-20 years ago. It wasn't the ES. When I host events, its all GS/IS and one ES.

I totally agree...I had gone to one or two Toyota meets in the past, and when the Lexus boys rolled up, it was GS and IS owners who seemed the most passionate about their rides and the Lexus brand. You still seem some, but the newer models don't have the following the old models did, as most RX and ES owners aren't the enthusiasts that the 2-4 GS and 1-2 IS owners were. IDK, but I figure that the changing car culture also changed the Lexus scene as well, not to mention growing up and having families to spend money on.

 

[mikeavelli]

So question for you? Why didn't you a GS-F if a GS is so special in your heart of hearts.



I think some do not realize how much this segment will decline.

Please scroll back and read a bit. I explained this. I might pick one up this year. We owned a new loaded GS 350 F-Sport when it first debuted. When I was at Vossen we bought the first GS 350 in the entire country. There are too many referrals to people who bought a GS or GS F due to my recommendation.