8th Generation Lexus ES Megathread (ES 350h, ES 350e, ES 500e)

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Sulu

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qtb007 said:
Is the ES uncompetitive in the segment? The sales in 2022 were 80% of the sales of the redesign that launched for MY19. I'd expect that the 20% drop is due to midsize luxury cars being a dead/dying segment. People are either buying electric or moving to crossovers. Drop the 2GR for an A25 PHEV and the ES will now be in the hunt as an electric option.
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No, it is not.
sl0519 said:
Subjectively speaking it is the slowest and least dynamic in its segment, on top of that it's also using parts that are shared across Toyota sibilings, eg. Strut suspension, all steel chassis, no torque vectoring, buzzy 4 cyl engine, aging tech......I can go on and on a list of things that can be improved upon. Toyota / Lexus is so used to recyling old parts they think they can always get away with it. Really hoping they bring something fresh to the table next gen.
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The ES is, more than any other Lexus model, the one enthusiasts love to hate because it wears its soft, non-enthusiast ride on its sleeve. Yet, it is more than competitive in the mid-size luxury sedan segment, outselling the German mid-size sedans (Audi A6, BMW 5-Series, MB E-Class).
Lexus ES sales.png
(Data courtesy of https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/, Mercedes-Benz E-Class sales figures only available to 2016.)

Enthusiasts often use the sharing of parts and powertrains between the ES and the mass-market Camry to argue that the ES is a bad car. That is not good argument, in my opinion.

More and more automakers these days share parts, to lower the cost of development of new models. Lexus and Toyota are no different. Audi, part of the huge VW Group, is very well-known for sharing parts with other VW Group brands, including the cheaper brands.

And, yes, the Toyota A25A 4-cylinder is a buzzy engine but (and I don't have sales breakdown by powertrain) I would guess that the 4-cylinder AWD ES sells in very small numbers, less than the A25A Hybrid ES and much less than the 2GR V6 model. Anecdotally, I have yet to see any ES 250 AWD on the streets.

The sharing of parts and powertrains is not a problem; the problem is if the sharing is not well hidden, and having driven both the ES and the Camry, I would say that parts sharing is well-disguised in the ES, with its different suspension tuning and extra sound and vibration insulation. That is what has made it so successful in the luxury mid-size sedan market.
 
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Kennyth said:
What’s the chances of the next ES to be based on the Toyota Crown sedan.
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Depends how you define "Toyota Crown sedan". If you define it to be the RWD sedan, no, the ES will not be based on that. If, however, you define it to the the lifted, FWD crossover sedan that is already on sale in North America, the ES will be based on that (but probably not lifted that high).
 
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Lexus ES350h ES350e and ES 500e trademarked

www.autoguide.com

Lexus Plans Sweeping Electrification Of Its ES Sedan

Trademark filings found by AutoGuide indicate that Lexus is planning an expansion of its ES sedan lineup.The series of filings show trademarks for a Lexus ES350h, ES350e, and ES500e.Frankly, Lexus’ lineup nomenclature isn’t the easiest to decipher, but we’ve broken it down for you, starting with...
www.autoguide.com www.autoguide.com
 
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So ES will get the same upgrade as Camry, AWD hybrid without turbo, which makes sense because it is not an all new car. And ES electric will be BEV version like UX 300e or a different car?

If there will be BEV ES, what will a BEV IS bring? Is it then cancelled?
 
Kelvin2020

Kelvin2020

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I’m curious why they retained the ES trademark this time instead of calling it EZ.
Although I like the ES nameplate better.
 
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With the state of the sedan market, I guess they're assuming ES 350h will be the volume workhorse, ES 300e will test the waters for an equivalent mid-level spec EV, and ES 500e will be for folks wanting electric performance?

I have to say I'm a little surprised with this news and was expecting something like ES 350h, ES 450h+, ES 500h and/or ES 550h+. Not all of those, but more "h"s and "h+"s and not full "e"s considering the state of EV demand.

Lexus must have some all-new battery tech that is a major upgrade from what's in the RZ.

We were thinking of an ES 500h FSP (if it came to be) to replace our Camry XSE V6, but not sure an ES 500e is what we're after at this point in time...
 
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50% of ES sales comes from China. So it makes sense to have an EV version of it. And retaining the same name current customers won't get confused what they are getting. Because of an EV horsepower war going on in ChDM (with many mainstream models over 600hp for less than $50k), they have to offer a 500e version just to stay relevant.

The HZ is the EV equivalent of the IS, more focus of sportiness and style. The LF-ZL is the EV equivalent of the LS. So that leaves one more electric sedan to fill the role of ES.

I think the weaker than expected demand for 500h FSP models is giving Lexus some second thoughts about the ES500h FSP. Customers clearly prefer either the more efficiency-focused hybrid or go straight to a PHEV model if they want performance. The T24 P2 hybrid powertrain really doesn't make a lot of sense in their current lineup.
 
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sl0519

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ssun30 said:
50% of ES sales comes from China. So it makes sense to have an EV version of it. And retaining the same name current customers won't get confused what they are getting. Because of an EV horsepower war going on in ChDM (with many mainstream models over 600hp for less than $50k), they have to offer a 500e version just to stay relevant.

The HZ is the EV equivalent of the IS, more focus of sportiness and style. The LF-ZL is the EV equivalent of the LS. So that leaves one more electric sedan to fill the role of ES.

I think the weaker than expected demand for 500h FSP models is giving Lexus some second thoughts about the ES500h FSP. Customers clearly prefer either the more efficiency-focused hybrid or go straight to a PHEV model if they want performance. The T24 P2 hybrid powertrain really doesn't make a lot of sense in their current lineup.
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On the one hand I like the idea of having a EV option, but on the other hand it also kinda worries me the fact that it's sharing platform with ICE therefore losing the packaging advantage BEV inheritably brings.
 
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sl0519 said:
On the one hand I like the idea of having a EV option, but on the other hand it also kinda worries me the fact that it's sharing platform with ICE therefore losing the packaging advantage BEV inheritably brings.
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Toyota has been developing the E3 platform which is a shared ICEV-BEV platform for the new C-HR (and I think is already used for the Prius but they just didn't advertise it as such). It is essentially a hybrid between GA-C and e-TNGA. A similar concept could be extended to GA-K as well.

Their BEV strategy has always been a mix of dedicated BEV platform and shared platform. The dedicated architecture is likely limited to some low-volume Lexus products like LF-ZL and LF-ZC/HZ and maybe some GR cars. For most of this decade, the majority of their BEVs will come from a shared platform like E3 because it takes advantage of their existing ICEV manufacturing lines. It reduces the risk of over-investing in dedicated BEV factories (they already made that mistake in China) with low utilization and could not be used to produce HEVs/PHEVs.
 
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