8th Generation Lexus ES Megathread (ES 350h, ES 350e, ES 500e)

Gecko

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In Lexus' December 2021 announcement, many of us speculated about the back row of cars and what they were, and in that process, some of us were quite confused about the reduction of the spindle grill. This was paired with the "spindle body" announcement as an evolution of the grill, but I think many of us were curious what the new Lexus front ends would look like exactly.

RX gave us a clear glimpse at what this would mean and how the next generation would come to life, so I've been wondering what the next gen ES might look like. Specifically, I'm kind of excited about ES 500h FSP, so I've wondered, "What's that going to look like, exactly?"

I downloaded the high res BEV lineup pic, cropped it to just the ES and TX, and then played with the light a tad. Voila:

20211214_BEV_03_2.png

I know the TX has been beaten to death here, so I'll just say that similar to the renders, I expect there to be a small horizontal opening above the grill, then a larger grill similar to the RX below that. This is how Lexus is eliminating the beluga bump the RX has, I suppose. In this shot, that lower grill is either styled differently or sort of "pixelated out" to hide the final production form. Fine, as it goes, we should see soon.

But the ES is interesting. The shape of the front bumper looks intentional, a bit less pixelated, and I wonder if that's actually the final production front end for the next ES. It's an interesting half way point between Lexus' current lineup (even RX) and the BEV concepts if you look at the shape of the bumper specifically. The greenhouse and door panels look quite similar to the current ES, but some of that detail is obstructed by the RZ in this shot.

Anyway, just wanted to toss this out there since the ES generally doesn't get much love/focus, but it's one of Lexus' most important products and this pic is a very, very clear shot of the 8ES indeed.
 

JustADude

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By the time the 8ES is actually ready, has final production body, that'll be about 2-2.5 years away (12-18 months from now) from when this came out. I wouldn't expect this to be the final thing to look like this so if you don't like the design I wouldn't worry much. I am excited for ES500h, hopefully no FSP name that it can't live up to though, just FS Handling standard on that model.
 

Will1991

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@Gecko with that image my mind went right away to the LS+ concept:

2017-lexus-ls-concept.jpg


Some small adaptations but to me it seems based on this, even the side profile and wheels.
There’s even the beluga bit, but it might get some more work.
Another indication that the ES will get a broader appeal, killing the LS?
 

Gecko

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@Gecko with that image my mind went right away to the LS+ concept:

2017-lexus-ls-concept.jpg


Some small adaptations but to me it seems based on this, even the side profile and wheels.
There’s even the beluga bit, but it might get some more work.
Another indication that the ES will get a broader appeal, killing the LS?

I don't think the LS is going anywhere, but I think Lexus is very possibly going to extend the lifecycle of this one until they can make it a BEV. LS has always been the forerunner of the Lexus brand, and we know their intentions are to go full BEV, so I see those two things converging for a next gen LS.

We know TX, GX and ES are coming next through 2025 MY, but no news, mules or rumors on LS is a strange sign. IMO, a heavy refresh with iForce MAX powertrain and tweaked sheetmetal would carry the LS a few more years. I wonder if that's what Lexus plans to do?
 

sl0519

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I don't think the LS is going anywhere, but I think Lexus is very possibly going to extend the lifecycle of this one until they can make it a BEV. LS has always been the forerunner of the Lexus brand, and we know their intentions are to go full BEV, so I see those two things converging for a next gen LS.

We know TX, GX and ES are coming next through 2025 MY, but no news, mules or rumors on LS is a strange sign. IMO, a heavy refresh with iForce MAX powertrain and tweaked sheetmetal would carry the LS a few more years. I wonder if that's what Lexus plans to do?

Lexus needs to refresh its rear-drive vehicles in a timely manner (3 years into facelift, 6 years into major redesign). The way I'm seeing this...they are slowly evolving into 2nd-tier luxury brands like the Acura and the Infiniti where all line-up consist of entry SUVs. Some say that Genesis is slowly taking away the spot that Lexus once established and I cannot agree more.
 

JustADude

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Lexus needs to refresh its rear-drive vehicles in a timely manner (3 years into facelift, 6 years into major redesign). The way I'm seeing this...they are slowly evolving into 2nd-tier luxury brands like the Acura and the Infiniti where all line-up consist of entry SUVs. Some say that Genesis is slowly taking away the spot that Lexus once established and I cannot agree more.
Never lol. New RX, NX, we got, they'll be selling like hotcakes as usual because that's their bread and butter. I agree their rwd stuff needs to be overhauled like the IS/RC, LS/LC need a refresh. Lexus has great powertrains to put in their rwd vehicles like new T24, V35 for IS, V35 hybrid for LS but seems like that'll never happen. Yet they'll still outsell Genesis
 

sl0519

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Never lol. New RX, NX, we got, they'll be selling like hotcakes as usual because that's their bread and butter. I agree their rwd stuff needs to be overhauled like the IS/RC, LS/LC need a refresh. Lexus has great powertrains to put in their rwd vehicles like new T24, V35 for IS, V35 hybrid for LS but seems like that'll never happen. Yet they'll still outsell Genesis

All the brands have their SUVs selling like hotcakes but thats not the issue, what kills me is the fact that they chose to neglect all other cars outside of their SUV lineup. And I don't mean to bash fwd vehicles, I'm sure there are good fwd biased cars like Volvo's t8 powertrain that masks the nvh well and feels like a traditional v6, or a good torque vectoring that mitigates torque steer and bring more excitement to the table, but if you watched Savagegeese videos where he explained the underbody of all current fwd platform Lexus (go watch RX350 review), they really cheap out materials that normal people don't get to touch or see often, then coupled with a engine that feels no difference to Nissan and whatnot......it really takes some courage to be a die hard Lexus fan :mad:
 

NVlaar

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All the brands have their SUVs selling like hotcakes but thats not the issue, what kills me is the fact that they chose to neglect all other cars outside of their SUV lineup. And I don't mean to bash fwd vehicles, I'm sure there are good fwd biased cars like Volvo's t8 powertrain that masks the nvh well and feels like a traditional v6, or a good torque vectoring that mitigates torque steer and bring more excitement to the table, but if you watched Savagegeese videos where he explained the underbody of all current fwd platform Lexus (go watch RX350 review), they really cheap out materials that normal people don't get to touch or see often, then coupled with a engine that feels no difference to Nissan and whatnot......it really takes some courage to be a die hard Lexus fan :mad:
Couldn't agree more. Exactly my thoughts as well. I can see TMC has lost some plot recently with the rise of EVs, AI etc. At this point, as much as I hate to admit, the Koreans, Hyundai/Kia are doing all the right things going forward. Most of TMC's newly introduced powertrains especially that 2.4 turbo are mediocre at best. In fact I think they are playing catch up in many areas; one of the examples being the new infotainment. Nothing pisses me off more than slapping that ugly touch screen into the very good looking LS dash. Hopefully they don't do the same thing with LC. Speaking of losing plot, you can see that they had to handball all their infotainment software dev to US based team (pretty sure that wasn't their first choice) rather than keeping things close to their chest at Nippon. I am by no means any good with nitty gritty of the automotive tech but seeing posts from others (ssun30) on LE about BZ4X being a failure and RZ being forced to delay because it is not competitive enough etc makes me quite worry about the future of TMC. Because future as we know it will revolve mostly around software and it isn't TMC strongest trait from what we are seeing so far.
Sorry to go offtrack from the main topic.
 

Will1991

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I'm starting this thread to get some ideas together.

Due to how it looks, it should be a heavy refresh of the current model, instead of a completely new car:

image.png


Powertrains should be easy, since next Camry development has become a NA affair, it should share them with the new Crown Estate being:

image.png



Hopefully it's going to be using a 5th generation hybrid system and not the 4th generation found in todays ES's!

So, an all electrified lineup!
 

JustADude

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Pretty much 350h, 350, 500h. 450h+ maybe? Hope we get AWD with the 350 as it'll be standard with the hybrid models. Current interior is one of their best imo with the new RX, hope they dont change it too much inside.
 

Will1991

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Don't take this refresh as a facelift, but a minor major change instead of a all new model.
A all new model is for example the 2NX but in this situation, taken into account this should be the last ICE ES, Lexus should keep some of the mechanical parts like subframes, sections of the body in white, etc...

Usually there's two types of new cars:
MMC - Minor Major Change, like the the E150 to E180 that share major mechanical and structural components
FMC - Full Model Change, like the 1NX to 2NX that share only small components.
 

Levi

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Don't take this refresh as a facelift, but a minor major change instead of a all new model.
A all new model is for example the 2NX but in this situation, taken into account this should be the last ICE ES, Lexus should keep some of the mechanical parts like subframes, sections of the body in white, etc...

Usually there's two types of new cars:
MMC - Minor Major Change, like the the E150 to E180 that share major mechanical and structural components
FMC - Full Model Change, like the 1NX to 2NX that share only small components.
New model on same platform, and new model on new platform. Compare to NX and RX, ES already is on TNGA platform, so just an update.
 

Sulu

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Don't take this refresh as a facelift, but a minor major change instead of a all new model.
A all new model is for example the 2NX but in this situation, taken into account this should be the last ICE ES, Lexus should keep some of the mechanical parts like subframes, sections of the body in white, etc...

Usually there's two types of new cars:
MMC - Minor Major Change, like the the E150 to E180 that share major mechanical and structural components
FMC - Full Model Change, like the 1NX to 2NX that share only small components.
New model on same platform, and new model on new platform. Compare to NX and RX, ES already is on TNGA platform, so just an update.
With all due respect, this argument is all academic.

Using this qualification, the new, 2023 Prius is only an update (it still rides on the TNGA-C platform), yet Toyota assigned it a new model number (from XW50 to XW60), and, most importantly, buyers accept it as a new generation model. There were enough engineering changes, from a completely new body to a new powertrain for it to be considered as a new model.
 

qtb007

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With all due respect, this argument is all academic.

Using this qualification, the new, 2023 Prius is only an update (it still rides on the TNGA-C platform), yet Toyota assigned it a new model number (from XW50 to XW60), and, most importantly, buyers accept it as a new generation model. There were enough engineering changes, from a completely new body to a new powertrain for it to be considered as a new model.
Agreed. This recent idea that an all new platform is required for a full model change is ridiculous.
 

sl0519

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Agreed. This recent idea that an all new platform is required for a full model change is ridiculous.

As long as the car can keep up its competitiveness with the other brands then an all new platform isn't required. But this is often NOT the case with Lexus.
 
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With all due respect, this argument is all academic.

Using this qualification, the new, 2023 Prius is only an update (it still rides on the TNGA-C platform), yet Toyota assigned it a new model number (from XW50 to XW60), and, most importantly, buyers accept it as a new generation model. There were enough engineering changes, from a completely new body to a new powertrain for it to be considered as a new model.

That is because the platform that the Prius sits on is a completely revised version of TNGA-C platform, it has a lot of changes compared to the old Prius.
 

qtb007

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As long as the car can keep up its competitiveness with the other brands then an all new platform isn't required. But this is often NOT the case with Lexus.
Is the ES uncompetitive in the segment? The sales in 2022 were 80% of the sales of the redesign that launched for MY19. I'd expect that the 20% drop is due to midsize luxury cars being a dead/dying segment. People are either buying electric or moving to crossovers. Drop the 2GR for an A25 PHEV and the ES will now be in the hunt as an electric option.

That is because the platform that the Prius sits on is a completely revised version of TNGA-C platform, it has a lot of changes compared to the old Prius.
The only thing I see is a blurb that the TNGA-C is on it's 2nd generation making it "lighter and stiffer, lower Cg". It's an evolution of the '16 when we are talking platform.

The '16 Prius got good marks for handling. They fixed the Prius for '23 by fixing the looks (not platform dependent) and using powertrains that weren't based off the ZR engine (again, not platform dependent).
 

sl0519

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Is the ES uncompetitive in the segment? The sales in 2022 were 80% of the sales of the redesign that launched for MY19. I'd expect that the 20% drop is due to midsize luxury cars being a dead/dying segment. People are either buying electric or moving to crossovers. Drop the 2GR for an A25 PHEV and the ES will now be in the hunt as an electric option.


The only thing I see is a blurb that the TNGA-C is on it's 2nd generation making it "lighter and stiffer, lower Cg". It's an evolution of the '16 when we are talking platform.

The '16 Prius got good marks for handling. They fixed the Prius for '23 by fixing the looks (not platform dependent) and using powertrains that weren't based off the ZR engine (again, not platform dependent).

Subjectively speaking it is the slowest and least dynamic in its segment, on top of that it's also using parts that are shared across Toyota sibilings, eg. Strut suspension, all steel chassis, no torque vectoring, buzzy 4 cyl engine, aging tech......I can go on and on a list of things that can be improved upon. Toyota / Lexus is so used to recyling old parts they think they can always get away with it. Really hoping they bring something fresh to the table next gen.