5th Generation (2018+) Lexus LS 500 & LS 500h Megathread
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LS buyers seem to want more of the same (1-3rd gen). 4th gen is hard to pint point but had a rapid (some crazy pioneering features like self park) start but then cooled down to economics I guess. The 5th gen was a radical departure with a design that designed to be coupe like but luxo barge. LS buyers and spectators seemed to complain at anything and everything about this generation and have shifted to the stalwart S class at least by the sales figures.
The LS has traditionally rode like a Lincoln town car and for this 5th gen they tuned it to be more of German cars' planted road feel. All the sudden ppl went against it because it rode nothing like it did before so they moved on to the Germans, yet they did not mind riding in German cars? You guys see where I'm going?
If your gonna buy a replica why not just buy the original and get a S class?
Lexus did this with the infotainment system as well when they launched remote touch, trying to replicate the success of Idrive and ditch their innovative touchscreen solution only for that to be panned by reviewers (they dont matter but they are loud) and customers alike.
And now everyone is moving rapidly back to touchscreens and here Lexus is trying to play catchup finally with the new generation of infotainment when they could of easily been the leader on that tech early on.
For some reason Lexus pioneers some insane technology (self park) and then lets it sit by the wayside or has a winning formula and decides nope this time we're flippping the script (5th LS)
Ian Schmidt
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I get the rationale for flipping the script. The LS previously was a Great Value(tm) S-Class, for all intents and purposes. That limits your sales because you're not offering anything really unique. People who can afford the original will still buy the original, you're getting customers who can't or don't want to pay Mercedes prices. That was a workable business model in the 90s and early 2000s, but with the shift of first-owner luxury cars to being almost exclusively leased more people could afford to get the Benz. That shrank the market for knockoffs, which is why I started hearing from dealers at the 4LS launch that they were losing sales.
The problem with flipping the script is that the market for full-size luxury sedans only wants the S-Class formula (which used to be the Cadillac formula back in the 50s and 60s). BMW's struggled with 7 Series sales forever, because a full-size sedan that doesn't steer like a boat apparently scares that audience. The 5LS has the same problem, compounded by worse interior room and the loss of prestige by Lexus starting around when the Escalade came out. Plus the general shift away from sedans. Lexus seems to be betting that better tech, starting with Teammate in the 2022s, will help, but I think the ceiling is definitely limited for all the reasons I've already mentioned.
The original 4LS was the last time the LS was the decisively superior full size sedan of its time. During the first two years nothing in the segment matched its technological sophistication. But it didn't matter because of the financial crisis. Then Mercedes struck back with the W221 refresh. The extremely dominant W222 sealed the fate for all competition.
It's hard to say how Lexus could have maintained the competitiveness of LS. Would it help if instead of flipping they went further with the old formula and basically made a Lexus Century?
It's hard to say how Lexus could have maintained the competitiveness of LS. Would it help if instead of flipping they went further with the old formula and basically made a Lexus Century?
The flagship EV market is very hard to crack especially for a brand like Lexus. This segment is all about numbers and tech. Selling reliability simply doesn't work here. You can't just build something with 400kW and 500km range and count on owners keeping the car for 15 years for success.
Lexus certainly could crack the market for a luxury flagship EV, if they truly choose to. Unfortunately, the corporate bean counters at Toyota/Lexus won't allow it to happen.
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Deusex
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I think you guys have it all wrong for low LS sales. It is a fragile look of the car. What is the first thing you see when you look at a car, styling. Then you look at the specs. The car not only should be build like a tank but it has to show it. This gen LS doesnt.
F1 Silver Arrows
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I see what you mean. However I really like how elegant and slippery this new LS looks though.
Interesting bits I find on Chinese websites, 2018 LS and 2021 LS both with instrumented tests (acceleration, braking, moose test, fuel economy, noise decibel). The pre-refresh model included its test in the following time stamp (15:45 - 17:23).
https://www.dongchedi.com/video/6833342885442617870
https://www.dongchedi.com/video/7062721888400704039
I want to specifically point out the moose test because this gives us a much clearer picture on how much the suspension tune has changed between pre-refresh and refreshed model.
The 2018 model, has much smoother transition between the cones with only a slight bit of body roll. It has some sporty nature of suspension tunes like the Germans which is plausible except, people from the previous LS complained the ride being too harsh. Perhaps the folks at Lexus panicked so they decided to return to the origin nature of the LS and instead went with the other extreme. The ride definitely soften up a lot on the facelifted model but as you can see, it now sacrifices its dynamic way too much for a much plusher ride. Its struggle of weight transfer between cones can clearly be felt, the rolls have become much bigger and you can even see how there are way too many suspension rebounds and body control fares a lot worse. To me it looks like they haven't quite found the balance where both handling and comfort are maintained as such like segment leader. Hopefully they will get to address many of its problem in the next major redesign.
https://www.dongchedi.com/video/6833342885442617870
https://www.dongchedi.com/video/7062721888400704039
I want to specifically point out the moose test because this gives us a much clearer picture on how much the suspension tune has changed between pre-refresh and refreshed model.
The 2018 model, has much smoother transition between the cones with only a slight bit of body roll. It has some sporty nature of suspension tunes like the Germans which is plausible except, people from the previous LS complained the ride being too harsh. Perhaps the folks at Lexus panicked so they decided to return to the origin nature of the LS and instead went with the other extreme. The ride definitely soften up a lot on the facelifted model but as you can see, it now sacrifices its dynamic way too much for a much plusher ride. Its struggle of weight transfer between cones can clearly be felt, the rolls have become much bigger and you can even see how there are way too many suspension rebounds and body control fares a lot worse. To me it looks like they haven't quite found the balance where both handling and comfort are maintained as such like segment leader. Hopefully they will get to address many of its problem in the next major redesign.
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Something like Mercedes' e-active body control? Those are very rare, let alone review units. I specifically watched how competitors performed on those kind of tests and they all generally have good body control without too much sacrifice on comfort maybe except the 7 series (proritize on sport, lacks comfort) but it is also the case for pre-refresh LS...the facelifted model clearly headed the other end of spectrum. If I recall, there was a video from KM77 which they tested the new W223, very basic specs without rear-wheel steering nor active suspension control...it still performed admirably for its size. Not to mention Mercedes is very well known for its class leading comfort. Of course comparing it against freshly redesigned opponent kind of makes it unfair but I was trying to make a point that it is definitely achievable...whether by weight saving or more sophisticated suspension design.
While true, does that matter to the first owner of these vehicles?
The question is, does it matter to the Lexus owner? If not, why a Lexus over a Maserati?
Its a difficult question that varies by market.
At least in leasing friendly countries like the US, it seemingly does not seem of value to the majority of new owners. Second owners and a minority of new owners yes.
With new Lexus powertrains on the way, Lexus' flagship model has one bad engine lineup. Lexus best engine is either performance of hybrid. The LS has a standard workhorse engine (TTV6). Where is the flagship V8 or V6 hybrid? The hybrid 500h will get eclipsed by all 450h+, 500h (turbo I4) and 550h+. Can't believe it got so forsaken. On the other hand, if LS gets a 500h (turbo I4), the ES will not get it, so again the ES will not satisfy the the left out GS buyers. It is sad the best powertrains do not find their way in sedans. NX gets 350h and 450h+ all with AWD, ES is stuck with 300h FWD only, when it is equivalent to RX, mid-size and should get all its drivetrains, including the phev T24A.
Gecko
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Agree, but being on the very front of the TNGA rollout, I have to believe the next gen ES and LS will get serious upgrades that will push them past the NX due to advancements made over time, just like how NX has leapfrogged them being 4 years newer.
ES should get T24A "350", "350h" or maybe "400h" hybrids, and probably a 500h F SPORT Performance flagship. I would also expect 450h+ and an all-electric "e" option... maybe something like ES 400/450e.
I believe the 6LS will be all hybrid or - less likely- electric-only for the next gen. The demand for gas powered flagship luxury sedans has shrunk to one: the S Class. Lexus should use the LS as a tech showcase and to cement their position as the hybrid leader with something like a base LS 550h (T24A + batteries), LS 750h (TTV6 + batteries), LS 600h+ (T24A + PHEV), and LS 600e all-electric option. It would be a bold move, but that's really the only course forward for the LS IMO.
And here again the LS would get outsold by the cancelled LF-1. BMW renews the 7 Series, but that is just because they have the platform and they can, their cars are the X7, iX and XM.