internalaudit

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Gecko had asked "how we were feeling" after the reviews. And the thing that struck me, in reflecting on what the new NX seems to be delivering, was how it seems to not really stand out. And for me, that feeling is accented in comparing with the Tucson Hybrid. And I don't just mean in terms of pricing.

A while back, when Jonas started complaining about Lexus having nothing interesting at the time, I suggested he wait, and see what happened. One of the things I suggested was a powertrain that included both hybrid and turbocharging. From what I've seen in the implementation of the hybrid into the Sienna & Highlander were problems with noise on full load (and braking), with the heavier vehicles, and I didn't think this met the refinement I would want in a Lexus. Others suggested that such a powertrain combination would be too costly.

Meanwhile, a few pages back in this Topic, there was a discussion of the lack of a mechanical AWD system, and with the conclusion that it makes sense to continue improvement of E-AWD. While this may work for some, I'm disappointed given my use conditions - in Minnesota, and living on a hill.

And yet, both of these developments (hybrid/turbo powertrain {and note with a pretty smooth 6 speed conventional transmission}, and mechanical AWD) were delivered by Hyundai on the Tucson Hybrid.

Lexus did well with the styling of the new NX and seems to have gotten the infotainment much, much better. And in these days, infotainment seems so key. But yet, I must say that I am disappointed that with all of its engineering resources, Toyota / Lexus did not deliver more on the NX. Now this is probably due to a strategic decision to focus on the new electric platforms. But again, for my use in a long-winter environment, I'm just not as interested in a full BEV. So I was hoping for more from the NX.

The new RX is coming in the next year or so, and maybe that will address my concerns.
Yeah, Toyota is very behind in terms of handling dynamics and torque vectoring technology when they have to advertise Torque Control shifting power to the rear from the front. but I would take the eCVT over any automatic transmission. It's just for simplicity. I own a '12 CT200h and '16 RAV4H and eCVT is just fine. They're not sports SUVs so I would priority reliability over the number of gears.

I think you will be disappointed when the all-new RX comes out. Maybe go with the hybrid Tucson if you have to make the purchase in a year or two. At least the warranty for the first owner is unlimited on certain components.
 

Sulu

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Gecko had asked "how we were feeling" after the reviews. And the thing that struck me, in reflecting on what the new NX seems to be delivering, was how it seems to not really stand out. And for me, that feeling is accented in comparing with the Tucson Hybrid. And I don't just mean in terms of pricing.

A while back, when Jonas started complaining about Lexus having nothing interesting at the time, I suggested he wait, and see what happened. One of the things I suggested was a powertrain that included both hybrid and turbocharging. From what I've seen in the implementation of the hybrid into the Sienna & Highlander were problems with noise on full load (and braking), with the heavier vehicles, and I didn't think this met the refinement I would want in a Lexus. Others suggested that such a powertrain combination would be too costly.

Meanwhile, a few pages back in this Topic, there was a discussion of the lack of a mechanical AWD system, and with the conclusion that it makes sense to continue improvement of E-AWD. While this may work for some, I'm disappointed given my use conditions - in Minnesota, and living on a hill.

And yet, both of these developments (hybrid/turbo powertrain {and note with a pretty smooth 6 speed conventional transmission}, and mechanical AWD) were delivered by Hyundai on the Tucson Hybrid.

Lexus did well with the styling of the new NX and seems to have gotten the infotainment much, much better. And in these days, infotainment seems so key. But yet, I must say that I am disappointed that with all of its engineering resources, Toyota / Lexus did not deliver more on the NX. Now this is probably due to a strategic decision to focus on the new electric platforms. But again, for my use in a long-winter environment, I'm just not as interested in a full BEV. So I was hoping for more from the NX.

The new RX is coming in the next year or so, and maybe that will address my concerns.

I am not a powertrain engineer, let alone a Toyota Hybrid System engineer, but from what I know about how the THS works, I do not believe that it was designed to work well with turbocharging. A turbocharged engine works well with a mechanical transmission that has discrete gear ratios for when you want a temporary torque boost from a smaller engine.

THS is not designed for such operation. It is not a mechanical transmission in the traditional sense; it has no discrete gear ratios. It is an electro-mechanical system that allows an electric powertrain to drive the vehicle at all times, with assistance from the gasoline engine (to recharge the battery or provide torque assist to the electric motor) only when needed. The engine, when running, runs at a constant speed; there is no need for a torque boost from a turbocharger.

THS was designed for maximum efficiency (minimizing fuel consumption), not high on-demand power with some assistance from an electric drive to reduce fuel consumption. This is evident in the THS in the new Sienna and Highlander Hybrids, where extra power for the larger, heavier vehicles comes from a more powerful electric drive, not a larger gasoline engine.

If the THS in the new Sienna and Highlander Hybrids have problems with noise, it is not safe to assume that this same powertrain will be as unrefined in the new Lexus NX. Doing so assumes that a Lexus is merely a better-dressed version of the equivalent Toyota (assuming that a NX is merely a RAV4 in a different dress). A Lexus is more than that; it is a quieter and much more refined car than the equivalent Toyota.
 

ssun30

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I do not believe that it was designed to work well with turbocharging. A turbocharged engine works well with a mechanical transmission that has discrete gear ratios for when you want a temporary torque boost from a smaller engine.
That is not true. THS works well with any ICE including a rotary. The best match for turbocharged engine is CVT, which can always keep the engine at optimal boost. Turbocharged engines are only slightly suboptimal compared to NA engines because they have lower max thermal efficiency and slightly worse at heating up catalytic converter.
And yet, both of these developments (hybrid/turbo powertrain {and note with a pretty smooth 6 speed conventional transmission}, and mechanical AWD) were delivered by Hyundai on the Tucson Hybrid.
The right conclusion is Hyundai made a right car for you, who expressly need a hybrid system with an AWD capable of operating in winter. There is zero benefit or reasoning for TMC to develop a hybrid system with mechanical AWD, because 1) that kind of system is objectively less efficient than THS+E-AWD in mild weather 2) people who live in cold climate tend to not own an electrified vehicle 3) Toyota/Lexus buyers who live in cold climate tend to buy their very capable 4x4s. Hyundai did make it because their hybrids have always been P2 and they are miles ahead of everyone else invested in P2.

I am not a NX buyer either but I understand it is the correct product for Lexus because the formula is just so well optimized for a very large crowd.

I think maybe @Gecko or @krew can ask this question to Lexus "which were the top priority customer complaints/requests about Gen 1 NX that got addressed in Gen 2?" If possible ask them to list those issues in different categories: design, practicality, overall quality, interior tech, powertrain tech, safety tech, packaging options etc. Then we know what NX buyers really want.

One example would be that a lot of people seem to have complained F-Sport packages don't come with a lot of comfort amenities. Is NX F-Sport now offering more comfort features?
 
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spwolf

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I think maybe @Gecko or @krew can ask this question to Lexus "which were the top priority customer complaints/requests about Gen 1 NX that got addressed in Gen 2?" If possible ask them to list those issues in different categories: design, practicality, overall quality, interior tech, powertrain tech, safety tech, packaging options etc. Then we know what NX buyers really want.

One example would be that a lot of people seem to have complained F-Sport packages don't come with a lot of comfort amenities. Is NX F-Sport now offering more comfort features?

Their priorities were exactly what you wrote - interior comfort, interior quality, practicality, interior technology, powertrain technology, safety tech, all of those.

They literally worked on all of them - previous NX was not only based on not-a-perfect platform, but also had problems with packaging.

This is very ahead of the current model on all of those, aside from just the specs, it is more comfortable, quiet and spacious vehicle. Old NX had really high trunk with not a lot of space available for instance.
 
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The first generation NX was small, unrefined, probably a better UX then the UX.

Paying customers loved it in the following order:
1) Value/Money; Leased extremely well and the minority of shoppers outright purchasing had sizeable discounts
2) Lexus Dealership Experience
3) Brand that has always been associated with reliability

On the other hand Paying customers disliked the following in order:
1) felt smaller then competition
2) infotainment was bad (band-aid fix came along that was also a pain since it was mid production I believe 2019).

Contrast this why Enthusiasts loved the NX:
1) Brand finally was addressing a market the Germans were dominating; "not resting on its laurels"
2) TURBO on parity with the competition; something Toyota has stayed out for some reason in this century "not resting on its laurels"
3) Carplay and Android Auto rollout (I'll admit I'm reaching on this one)

And on the other hand Enthusiasts hated the NX:
1) FWD
2) Slip and Pray Awd
3) Powertrain offerings/choices
4) space
5) infotainment interface

The new NX addresses alot of concerns from both groups but its on Lexus terms and not "lets go make a world beater entry level CUV". Part of that is because the last decade's strategy of conquest sales have proved unsuccessful for all automakers as the market is pretty saturated and the only successful with that is Tesla. Part of that lack of world beater mentality also lays on an automakers who has nothing to prove almost, unlike say "Genesis".

I see packaging not really being addressed and disagree with @spwolf on this one. Alex on Autos review, at least his initial numbers indicate the passenger volumes are down for the most part, albeit rear headroom has increased in the decimals. Rear cargo volume is way up (almost 6 cubic feet).

Powertrain choices have gone up, and updated slightly but nothing that I assume enthusiasts were hoping for. The 450 will be the performance model, but odds are it will be harder to get then unicorn tears.

Infotainment has been redesigned, and that seems to be the focus of marketing but they also are almost hiding the 9 inch, which i assume will probably be the majority of customer orders.

This NX is will do wonders for TMCs bottom line because it follows the company's historic recipe for success; incremental updates coupled with a brilliant marketing strategy. Will it appease enthusiasts who have clamored for more "Lexus Driving Signature" probably not. Will it allow folks who are coming off UX and NX leases/purchases to remain with Lexus, absolutely!
 

Will1991

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Lexus listened to buyers’ concerns, one of the worst one was how slow the power rear door was, and it's now fixed:


There’s also another thing, the powertrain and performance.

I recall earing (I think it was on the LE PodCast), when Lexus did that HQ event, about someone asking if it’s going to be a Tesla Model Y competitor and the answer was honest if I remember correctly.


Tesla re-arranged what is seen as “standard” 0-60 times, and almost everyone on YouTube seems to think it’s what everyone wants, but, it isn’t…

To me, the Lexus buyer wants something else.
To me, the Lexus buyer wants better build quality, a nice balance between comfort and sport for the suspension, etc…

A Lexus buyer will appreciate all those little things that you only notice after driving the car for a while, and to this, I think this new NX will be a homerun.
 

Ian Schmidt

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A Lexus buyer will appreciate all those little things that you only notice after driving the car for a while, and to this, I think this new NX will be a homerun.
I had no idea the NX rear door was that slow, but that's absolutely the kind of improvement that customers will appreciate. Lexus should send a memo to dealers telling them to do that demo for people doing NX lease returns.
 

Gecko

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I do agree that the NX could be a bit bigger, and to @NXracer's point, I think they sort of cleverly avoided some of the numbers in the launch materials because many of the reviews note it feeling a bit smaller.

With that said, Lexus is unique among competitors because of one thing: The RX. BMW, nor Mercedes, nor Audi have an RX and Lexus does have to create some breathing room between the NX and RX, which is a sort of awkward position to be in. The RX has gotten a ton of pressure from below (NX, Q5, etc) and above (MDX, QX60, upcoming TX) and Lexus does have to carve out a space for it to exist, so if we think the NX should have a little more cargo room... I agree... but the RX is probably why it doesn't.

Then we also have RZ coming next year as well...
 
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The RX would be a wider wheelbase for 5 passengers, while the NX could have a tiny bit more legroom for 4 passengers.

But I do have to agree @Gecko that the NX and RX are hard to diff unlike other vehicles where the X3 splits the diff of those two segments
 

spwolf

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I cant fathom how the engines are updated "slightly".
They are completely revised with all new engines and way more engine options.

Also, 450+ should not be hard to get as Prime was originally, they increased Prime production 10x compared to last year, and if they can build 50% of Prime current number's, they will have too many already.
 

Benito

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I must be an outlier because I actually like the overall size of my NX. In fact I was worried that it would grow too much in width. I agree it could use more cargo capacity and it sounds like the new one has fixed that issue. But not everyone always wants bigger. The current NX is right sized for me where the UX is too small and the RX too large.
 

spwolf

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trunk size upgrade is big, and that is 450+ trunk too.

477670-en-video-on-decouvre-le-nouveau-lexus-nx-2022.jpeg

lexus-nx300h-hybrid_20.jpg
 

Jezza819

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I must be an outlier because I actually like the overall size of my NX. In fact I was worried that it would grow too much in width. I agree it could use more cargo capacity and it sounds like the new one has fixed that issue. But not everyone always wants bigger. The current NX is right sized for me where the UX is too small and the RX too large.

The NX is just the right size for me too as a single person. I could make do with a UX and might have to depending on what the NX leases are in December 2023. But the RX is definitely too much for me both in size and price.
 

mikeavelli

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Please note yall the NX is going from mostly FWD and then AWD to mostly AWD to FWD. Lexus has purposefully packaged AWD. Southern states will no longer be regulated to just mostly FWD.
 
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I cant fathom how the engines are updated "slightly".
They are completely revised with all new engines and way more engine options.

Also, 450+ should not be hard to get as Prime was originally, they increased Prime production 10x compared to last year, and if they can build 50% of Prime current number's, they will have too many already.

@spwolf my point was not to dismiss the engines as being new, but rather look at the performance improvement objectively through the eyes of the enthusiast community these new engines bring to the table. For instance, I think @ssun30 pointed this out earlier that these new engines raw output bump doesn't necessarily translate well to a performance improvement.

I do see the cleverness in the product planning team to have taken the original demographic who in the 1st gen would get a 6.8-7 sec 0-60 second ICE NX and divide that group into the two sub groups one with a slower 8.2 (price consciousness) vs 6.8 (mid grade).
 

ssun30

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Some testers showed the NX350h has no meaningful performance disadvantage in acceleration tests. Makes sense since 239hp is measured at the output shaft of the hybrid transaxle while 275hp is crank power. There's much lower powertrain loss in the hybrid. The wheel hp of the two could actually be very similar.
 

Gecko

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Some testers showed the NX350h has no meaningful performance disadvantage in acceleration tests. Makes sense since 239hp is measured at the output shaft of the hybrid transaxle while 275hp is crank power. There's much lower powertrain loss in the hybrid. The wheel hp of the two could actually be very similar.

I was more excited about the NX 350, but after seeing the performance figures, I think the NX 350h is the clear winner. Motor Trend tested it as faster 0-60 and 1/4 mile than the 2.4T... a bit crazy. Plus ~37mpg - you can't beat that. I personally think NX 350h is the best choice in the lineup.

Everyone would love a 450h+, but I would not spend $60k+ on an NX.
 

mediumhot

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I was more excited about the NX 350, but after seeing the performance figures, I think the NX 350h is the clear winner. Motor Trend tested it as faster 0-60 and 1/4 mile than the 2.4T... a bit crazy. Plus ~37mpg - you can't beat that. I personally think NX 350h is the best choice in the lineup.

Everyone would love a 450h+, but I would not spend $60k+ on an NX.

Well now it's pretty clear why V6 replacement is neutered. They want to push hybrids very aggressively to keep up in electrification race. Makes sense from their perspective. We will see when it comes to sales but I bet there will be quite a few, actually quite a lot salesman that will tell their customers on the floor the exact same thing "Take a look at 350h instead, it has the same performance and it's less thirsty for the same amount of dollars." They (Lexus) finally took hybrid seriously. It took them a while no doubt ;)
 
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I definitely prefer the hybrid myself. It just seems odd if they were intentionally pushing it that they would have also offered the F-Sport package on the hybrid version here in the states since that is the better looking of the two, at least imo.
 
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I definitely prefer the hybrid myself. It just seems odd if they were intentionally pushing it that they would have also offered the F-Sport package on the hybrid version here in the states since that is the better looking of the two, at least imo.
It’s also a little odd, at least to me, that they went through the trouble of developing a new drivetrain (2.4L turbo + 8 speed automatic + updated AWD system) only for its performance to be on par with a hybrid with ~40 less horsepower, probably quite a bit less torque, an eCVT, and eAWD.

Since the 2.4T will eventually make its way into the next RX and upcoming TX, I hope it’s tuned differently (more aggressively) since it has to take over the job of the 2GR in much bigger vehicles and at least match its real-world performance.

I don’t know…I could be wrong and the next gen RX could very well be slower.