(2025MY+) 380D Camry Discussion

[qtb007]

The only thing that scares me is the accord makes a whopping 204hp and is hybrid only. I don’t think Toyota will follow suite. I hope not. Needs a GR or TRD to keep momentum going

IMO, hybrid only is coming to Camry. Sienna, Venza, Sequoia... all hybrid only. Corolla in the mid cycle change went heavy on hybrid. A not-insignificant percentage of Camry and Rav4 are already hybrid. It seems like the next logical step (especially if they are beating the drum that mass hybrid adoption is a better way to reduce CO2 than a slow, drawn out transition from ICE to BEV.

 

[ssun30]

Hybrid max + 3/4 the weight of RX500h is certainly GR level of straight line performance. But would it corner well is the question.

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

Hybrid max + 3/4 the weight of RX500h is certainly GR level of straight line performance. But would it corner well is the question.

Current generation Camry is a damn good handler. Was better than the 9th generation Accord, with the 10th generation doing better than the Camry. But now the 11th generation has taken a huge step back.

 

[internalaudit]

Current generation Camry is a damn good handler. Was better than the 9th generation Accord, with the 10th generation doing better than the Camry. But now the 11th generation has taken a huge step back.

That's good to know. When I was driving my friend's 2008/9 Camry in and out of the driveway, steering was too soft lol.

Yeah, the 8th gen Accord with double wishbone suspension is wonderful, in terms of FWD handling.

I wish future Lexus BEVs will still have that set up, like the IS and the GS.

 

[Sulu]

My 2022 Camry Hybrid certainly handles bad roads better than any of my previous Toyotas or Lexus, and my wife's 2013 (9th-gen) Honda Accord (but that is not much of a comparison). I would not say that it is terrific, though.

 

[NomadDan]

I still think there’s a good chance we will see the S20 as an option to replace the V6. I also don’t see the Camry going hybrid only.

I think engine options will be:
A25
S20
A25 hybrid
T24 hybrid (TRD/GR only)

Just my $.02.

 

[qtb007]

I still think there’s a good chance we will see the S20 as an option to replace the V6. I also don’t see the Camry going hybrid only.

I think engine options will be:
A25
S20
A25 hybrid
T24 hybrid (TRD/GR only)

Just my $.02.

I don't see S20 happening for a few reasons. It is only ~250hp so, on paper, it has practically no benefit over the high torque A25 hybrid that makes 245hp and will get drastically better fuel efficiency. Plus, that A25 hybrid is already a certified for US market engine. Drop it straight in from a number of already existing vehicles.

The more I think about it, M20 hybrid and A25 (high torque) hybrid should satisfy 95% of Camry buyers. Throw the V6 buyers a bone with the T24 hybrid. That leaves Camry with 200, 245, and 340hp and 50, 45, and 35mpg.

IMO, S20/T24 makes a much better case in a Rav4/Venza than Camry. The Rav, despite moving 400k+ per year, is one of the few in that market that doesn't have an uprated engine. [I'm ignoring the Rav4 Prime since it has such limited volume and the extra power is just a side effect of the PHEV capability]. That said, the same thing as above where the high torque hybrid A25 would give the Rav performance practically equivalent to the T24 or S20.

A lot of my opinion on the T24 being in no man's land comes from the way it is tuned. It doesn't drive like a turbo engine in the Highlander. The engine and transmission are quick to downshift when you ask for any power and the boost comes on smooth with the revs versus feeling that boost surge, so it doesn't feel like a performance / turbo engine. At that point, I'd rather just have the hybrid and the gas mileage benefits if they aren't going to drive drastically different.

 

[ssun30]

TMMK doesn't produce nor plans to produce the S20, that alone should be enough to know there won't be a 2.0T Camry. And for any market outside North America, Camry will be hybrid only anyway.

Since there's no displacement tax in USA, there's zero reason to produce S20 instead of putting in a detuned T24. Being a smaller displacement does not save any cost (and would in fact increase cost)

 

[NomadDan]

With the 8GR now showing up in the TX, I kinda wonder if this GR Camry will have a similar drivetrain, ie, 8GR hybrid with Direct4. It makes sense to me.

 

[qtb007]

A G16 mated to the high torque transaxle from the Highlander / Sienna / NX350h / RX350h would make 350hp, return 40mpg, be 600lbs lighter, and be significantly cheaper if they wanted a GR Camry versus the PHEV setup from a TX.

 

[Levi]

A G16 mated to the high torque transaxle from the Highlander / Sienna / NX350h / RX350h would make 350hp, return 40mpg, be 600lbs lighter, and be significantly cheaper if they wanted a GR Camry versus the PHEV setup from a TX.

I’d prefer this in the Prius or Corolla.

 

[Carmaker1]

With the 8GR now showing up in the TX, I kinda wonder if this GR Camry will have a similar drivetrain, ie, 8GR hybrid with Direct4. It makes sense to me.

Seems excessive, but possible. My only information I have is A25A and T24A-FTS Hybrid Max. Prime was definitely being considered as of June 2022.

Tundra and Tacoma Prime as well, but Tundra Prime was originally earmarked for MY 2025. He sees the prototype builds, so I try not to express skepticism and alienate him out of disrespect.

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

Seems excessive, but possible. My only information I have is A25A and T24A-FTS Hybrid Max. Prime was definitely being considered as of June 2022.

Tundra and Tacoma Prime as well, but Tundra Prime was originally earmarked for MY 2025. He sees the prototype builds, so I try not to express skepticism and alienate him out of disrespect.

Woah there, what would a Tundra Prime be?! o__o

 

[ssun30]

I recently completed a 2000mi/3200km road trip in a Camry hybrid rental car, something I never did with my ES300h with identical power train before. I got 47.2mpg/4.9L/100km average carrying three passengers and about 80kg/170lbs of luggage. The trip is a good combination of medium speed suburban, mountain climbing and descending, and high speed highway driving (80mph/130kph speed limit). Here are some areas of improvement I hope to see in the next Camry/ES hybrid.

The 259V, 1.6kWh battery is definitely undersized. It ran out of charge way too quickly on climb and charges too quickly on descent. I waste about 60% of potential regen energy to engine braking. Overall in mountain sections I get 34mpg up/67mpg down and 50mpg average. That figure could be much much better if the battery was 2-3x larger (3-5kWh).

Unfortunately Toyota recently went in the opposite direction. Both their Li-ion and bipolar NiMH batteries actually have smaller capacities (4.2Ah/5Ah vs. 6.5Ah on the old NiMH) but higher cycling rates (40/50C vs. 25C). I don't agree with the direction they are going.

The hybrid assist tuning is way too soft on the Camry/ES. The throttle response isn't nearly as sharp as their SUV tunes and acceleration is very weak. I think 0-100km/h could be at least 1s quicker if they had a more aggressive tune.

The A25A-FXS is definitely showing its age. On highway it struggles a lot providing enough power without revving to the redline. But at the same time I don't think this could be remedied before they finish development of the electrically supercharged 2.4L engine. I doubt a turbocharged engine could survive the repeated start stop cycles the PS system put the ICE in.

Overall I feel the appeal of regular hybrids to me is dwindling. I would not hesitate to choose the PHV versions instead. I know a ES550h+ is highly unlikely but one can dream...

 

[carguy420]

If you think the Camry is bad, the current 12th gen Corolla Altis would like to have a word with you, that thing is so pathetically slow in both gasoline and hybrid form that most people in Thailand and Malaysia went on to buy the freaking Civic 1.5T and 2.0L hybrid instead. Just one generation ago the Corolla Altis was still one of Toyota's main sellers in these parts of the world, but now its status has almost become just a filler model in Toyota's lineup in Thailand and Malaysia, mainly because its arch rival starting from their 10th generation onwards offers much more performance for about the same price as the current woefully gutless Corolla Altis. Toyota not having a small displacement turbocharged engine for normal C-segment cars like a 1.5L turbo and not being able to offer their latest gen 2.0L hybrid at a competitive price is hurting them in the engine displacement and price sensitive parts of the world.

 

[qtb007]

I recently completed a 2000mi/3200km road trip in a Camry hybrid rental car, something I never did with my ES300h with identical power train before. I got 47.2mpg/4.9L/100km average carrying three passengers and about 80kg/170lbs of luggage. The trip is a good combination of medium speed suburban, mountain climbing and descending, and high speed highway driving (80mph/130kph speed limit). Here are some areas of improvement I hope to see in the next Camry/ES hybrid.

The 259V, 1.6kWh battery is definitely undersized. It ran out of charge way too quickly on climb and charges too quickly on descent. I waste about 60% of potential regen energy to engine braking. Overall in mountain sections I get 34mpg up/67mpg down and 50mpg average. That figure could be much much better if the battery was 2-3x larger (3-5kWh).

Unfortunately Toyota recently went in the opposite direction. Both their Li-ion and bipolar NiMH batteries actually have smaller capacities (4.2Ah/5Ah vs. 6.5Ah on the old NiMH) but higher cycling rates (40/50C vs. 25C). I don't agree with the direction they are going.

Toyota's direction of shrinking the batteries makes complete sense on full hybrids. Smaller capacity battery = cheaper battery = lower vehicle cost. Increasing the cost of the car by $1000 for a bigger battery to save $80-$100/yr on gas is a losing proposition for American buyers.

 

[larryren]

If you think the Camry is bad, the current 12th gen Corolla Altis would like to have a word with you, that thing is so pathetically slow in both gasoline and hybrid form that most people in Thailand and Malaysia went on to buy the freaking Civic 1.5T and 2.0L hybrid instead. Just one generation ago the Corolla Altis was still one of Toyota's main sellers in these parts of the world, but now its status has almost become just a filler model in Toyota's lineup in Thailand and Malaysia, mainly because its arch rival starting from their 10th generation onwards offers much more performance for about the same price as the current woefully gutless Corolla Altis. Toyota not having a small displacement turbocharged engine for normal C-segment cars like a 1.5L turbo and not being able to offer their latest gen 2.0L hybrid at a competitive price is hurting them in the engine displacement and price sensitive parts of the world.

It already have 2L hi-output system with in using in EU/US/CN market... But don't know why didn't introducing more selling area....

 

[ssun30]

. direction of shrinking the batteries makes complete sense on full hybrids. Smaller capacity battery = cheaper battery = lower vehicle cost. Increasing the cost of the car by $1000 for a bigger battery to save $80-$100/yr on gas is a losing proposition for American buyers.

No they are not trading battery cost for capacity. The cost reduction is from better chemistry and construction, not smaller capacity.

They are trading energy density for power density. Ideally you want both. But if you've been following the Prius battery modding community, you know hybrid owners would always rather have more capacity than power if there is only one choice. When a hybrid car becomes slow it's usually because the battery run out, not because the battery is not powerful enough.

 

[qtb007]

No they are not trading battery cost for capacity. The cost reduction is from better chemistry and construction, not smaller capacity.

They are trading energy density for power density. Ideally you want both. But if you've been following the Prius battery modding community, you know hybrid owners would always rather have more capacity than power if there is only one choice. When a hybrid car becomes slow it's usually because the battery run out, not because the battery is not powerful enough.

Given identical construction and chemistry, does a 1.6kWh battery cost more, the same, or less than a 3-5kWh battery?

Maybe capacity isn't the right term, but Toyota is choosing the least expensive battery that still does the job. If the 1.6kWh battery is significantly less expensive than a 3-5kWh battery and still returns 47mpg, they are going to choose that battery all day long. If that 3-5kWh battery manages 60mpg, there are probably people that jump on that. But 47 versus 52? It better be like a $200 cost up before people are asking for it. This is just the nature of the US buyer. Lower cost up front is what a bulk of the buyers choose unless there is a benefit they they can see and feel.

 

[Gor134]

Possible next-gen Camry leak per C&D.

Sketch from Toyota's recent video posted on YT.

Honestly if true this looks great. The Crown Sport-esque front end and rear door/fender surfacing looks awesome.