2018 LS Master Thread (Debuts 1/9/17 8:30am -2017 NAIAS)

[Ian Schmidt]

@Gecko: I agree with those price points, but a $100K hypothetical 5LS is still going to be at least a $120K S550. Especially if you assume Lexus Safety System Plus as standard.

 

[CIF]

Pricing differences aside, the S Class always was, and still is the main competitor of the LS. The S Class can't be a class up, because a class up is full Rolls Royce/Bentley territory with pricing in the 200-400K range being very common. The Maybach S600, yes that can be argued to be a class above, but then again that starts at almost 200K. That's also considered a separate model from the S Class, as it's even listed separately from the S Class on the Benz website.

As Gecko points out, the S Class still remains the main competitor to the LS, and the 5LS is also likely to be more upmarket itself to more directly go toe-to-toe with the S Class. The 5LS can't afford not to be.

Hopefully with future coming spyshots, we'll see it testing alongside S Classes. The A8 and the 7 are not the class leaders here.

 

[krew]

Luckily for Auto Blog, my comment wouldn't post. Nothing more that I hate, such gross inaccuracy. I saw it within minutes of publishing, somehow being puzzled by the "googly-eyed" ES headline.

I immediately said to myself, that the 7ES is barely due for design freeze, it is not ready to be put out there testing. Upon clicking and viewing the images, the BMW in the background instantly told me what it was and the dimensions.

The Autoblog story has been changed now, but I'm with you -- I couldn't believe such an obvious mistake. Still, that's an outlet pushing out 12-15 stories a day, where I'm only writing two-three a day. Can't be too critical, I guess.

It is definitely a mechanical mule testing a new Toyota company engine, reported to be a turbo by onlookers. I am confused, but is it possible there's a double entendre with XX500 nomenclature? LC500=V8 LS500=TTV8?

For it to be testing with TTV8s and sound like a turbo, I can only think birds of the same feather. Why otherwise test a V6 with TTV8s? That's like coming to a gunfight, with a Super Soaker.

Also, why are they still running around with mules? Sounds like it will be any month now, that actual cars will be spotted. I have yet to understand how long it takes for Toyota to build design-spec prototypes.

It's all very confusing -- if this is engine mule and Lexus is testing a TTV8, will it be for the launch of the LS or something else down the line? Because you're right about the LC 500 5.0L V8, how do you launch the LS with a TTV8 and keep the LC with the old 2UR-GSE?

 

[krew]

As Gecko points out, the S Class still remains the main competitor to the LS, and the 5LS is also likely to be more upmarket itself to more directly go toe-to-toe with the S Class. The 5LS can't afford not to be.

Hopefully with future coming spyshots, we'll see it testing alongside S Classes. The A8 and the 7 are not the class leaders here.

I don't know any more -- with the performance-first direction of Lexus now, it might make more sense for the new LS to target the A8 and the 7 for driving dynamics. It might not be what we're hoping for, but it would be consistent with other recent models.

 

[spwolf]

The Autoblog story has been changed now, but I'm with you -- I couldn't believe such an obvious mistake. Still, that's an outlet pushing out 12-15 stories a day, where I'm only writing two-three a day. Can't be too critical, I guess.



It's all very confusing -- if this is engine mule and Lexus is testing a TTV8, will it be for the launch of the LS or something else down the line? Because you're right about the LC 500 5.0L V8, how do you launch the LS with a TTV8 and keep the LC with the old 2UR-GSE?

Lexus has shown lately that they understand importance of offering choice of engines in luxury vehicles... Being European, I sometimes find it hard to understand why everyone wants base engine to have 100000hp. There will certainly be a base 400+ hp engine as we know from LC but why wouldnt there be an extra TTV8 option? Maybe for F-Sport version, and thats why they are testing it vs BMW and Audi?

Quickly checking M*B*.de site, there are 6 different engines for S-class, starting with 230hp hybrid.

 

[meth.ix]

Maybe it's an alternative to the 2UR-GSE? I think it maybe a 400t making around the same output.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

As Gecko points out, the S Class still remains the main competitor to the LS, and the 5LS is also likely to be more upmarket itself to more directly go toe-to-toe with the S Class. The 5LS can't afford not to be.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I've driven LSes since '05 and the S-Class has never been a viable option unless I sold both of my kidneys, so in my real world they aren't competitors.

I don't know any more -- with the performance-first direction of Lexus now, it might make more sense for the new LS to target the A8 and the 7 for driving dynamics. It might not be what we're hoping for, but it would be consistent with other recent models.

Moreover, this makes sense given the evolution of the LS itself. In an early 2000s LS, you literally could not hear the engine run while inside the car, the suspension was so soft you could run over a Smart car and not notice, and the ECU carefully prevented any sudden changes in speed (like, say, rapid acceleration). In my current '15 you can hear the V8 quite well, potholes definitely make themselves known to your butt, and if I stomp my foot down the thing takes off.

I think that's also the ultimate point with the S Class comparisons. I see posters here putting up pictures of the W222 and drooling over it, but when I see that interior I see my grandmother's living room. My immediate association isn't "luxury", it's "Murder She Wrote" with the sound turned all the way up.

 

[Madi]

It is very much both (GA-L and engine), but not the 2UR-GSE apparently, but a turbo engine according to a source. A video is coming.

Does not make sense to me a V8, but likely is. Does this mean the LC500 will get an old engine, while LS500 gets a new one? Why would they trademark LS500, for a turbo V8?

This car is testing with twin-turbo V8s in the Audi A8 4.0T and BMW 750i LWB, so a TTV6 GR or new unit would be a time-wasting endeavour to pit against TTV8s, when the 740i and A8 3.0T are the primary competitors for 6 cylinder models.

On another note, GA-L is not the LC platform, but a modular architecture which debuts with the LC coupe first. The LS gets its own unique version, as well as GS (2018), IS (2019), and RC (2020). It's highly scalable.

Despite that we know how the naming system works in Lexus, Toyota already trademark LS500 so definitely there is a NA 5.0L V8 engine. If there is a turbo we will see "t" letter something like LS400t for example, or a Hybrid LS500h ...etc.

So i think if there is really a turbo engine in that mule its may be another engine option or its for a different model.

@Gecko: I agree with those price points, but a $100K hypothetical 5LS is still going to be at least a $120K S550. Especially if you assume Lexus Safety System Plus as standard.

That's whats makes the LS so special, being the best for lower price, I didn't say the current LS is better than the new S-Class or 7-Series, but every new LS when debuted always beat the competition technologically with lower price, but later the Germans takes the competition again.

The 1LS is the best example of this, the best with lower price, watch this:


I believe Lexus will make it again.

I don't know any more -- with the performance-first direction of Lexus now, it might make more sense for the new LS to target the A8 and the 7 for driving dynamics. It might not be what we're hoping for, but it would be consistent with other recent models.

Agreed, the 7-Series is fresher and have the best driving dynamics in this segment.

 

[mikeavelli]

Also note the new 7 series pricing has risen significantly compared to the past model. Surely the next Panamera goes up too. I think a big key for Lexus is to continue to offer V-8 pricing at the V-6 German levels.

I just can't see a new LS under 70k anymore, Gecko just reminded me and KREW today the current one starts over 70k.

 

[Carmaker1]

I am sure there will be multiple engines this time, with 5.0 V8 as base in NA (hopefully not in rest of the world).

As to the headlights and rear lights, seems to me that they are also trying to hide the shape and hence using old lights... concept had pretty outrageous headlights and that would be easily seen.

The 5.0L V8 is likely not going to be base, if it allows them to compete with 740i and A.8 3.0T in the U.S..

This is still a heavily-modified XF40 body, not the actual car. The lights are totally not being shown here, so there's not much to hide. It is a unique case in camouflaging a mere mule, but they have done similar with the CT as of late.

This is pretty much the same format of protoyping, as used by them in Japan 12 months ago. Just tidied up more. It was too messy to be driving around. I have to wonder if that Mag X mule photo was obtained on private grounds?

BMW tested their 1994 E38 during 1991-92 in this rounded E32 body with E32 door handles. By the end of 1992 and much of 1993, they were being tested in the actual body w/final door handles as seen in these winter 1992-93 shots. The car went into production in February 1994.

1991 BMW E38 Mule

1991-92 BMW E38 Early Prototypes

1992-93 E38 Prototype Winter Testing

1994 Production Model and E32 LCI vs E38


The 200B LS seems to be so intensive, it mirrors the 36-month post-design cycle for the E38. This is why Bangle had no hand in designing it, because he wasn't there in 1990-91. It was already to undergo a second set of winter testing by October 1992, when he came.

The last generation 7er and new generation, started out with mixed panel prototypes. Later becoming defined. The proper F01 didn't even surface in testing until pilot production in early 2008. The G11 appeared 8 months with actual body panels.

F01 Mule Prototype September 2006 w/E65 shell

Feb. 2013 G12 Mule Prototype w/F01 bits

Nov. 2013 G11 Prototype w/Proper panels and bumpers

The next 3-series (G20), barely reached final design selection in November 2015, yet you saw mules in January 2016, despite the fact the design hadn't been frozen yet and barely has been.

Those G20 mules, had some rudimentary composition of the new fascia on F30 3-Series bodies. Actual G20 prototypes will come much later. I pointed this all out here, as it provides a good idea.

 

[Black Dynamite]

As I said last year, what the LS needs is a small turbocharger, just to fill in the torque deficit of the 5.0. 370 lb ft will not cut it against Germany's best. I'm hoping they plan to make the LSF with the tri-turbo set-up from their GmbH skunkworks program in 2013, with 600HP or more. I don't think the LS needs multiple turbos to stand tall amongst the competition, but it needs mid-400 lb ft of torque, which low-RPM one turbo should provide.

I also would expedct a weight reduction of some sort. Since the LF-LC concept is bigger than the S-Class, it won't be much, but the Jag XJ is a huge car and comes in around 4000 lbs. They should at least make the bigger car slightly lighter than the current car, which is about 400 lbs lighter than the S-Class already.
BD

 

[Gecko]

I also would expedct a weight reduction of some sort. Since the LF-LC concept is bigger than the S-Class, it won't be much, but the Jag XJ is a huge car and comes in around 4000 lbs. They should at least make the bigger car slightly lighter than the current car, which is about 400 lbs lighter than the S-Class already.
BD

I was kind of hoping for that as well, but with the LC 500 weighing around 4,100lbs, I think we are looking at every bit of 4,500 to 4,700 for an LS, probably more for LWB versions with AWD and lots of options.

 

[CIF]

I don't know any more -- with the performance-first direction of Lexus now, it might make more sense for the new LS to target the A8 and the 7 for driving dynamics. It might not be what we're hoping for, but it would be consistent with other recent models.

I truly pray and hope this is not the case. If Lexus goes with a performance-first direction for the LS, that would be a disastrous decision IMHO. The LS is the LAST model you should be going with a performance-first approach. Lexus in such a case would lose the majority of LS customers, I can guarantee you that. The attraction of new performance-minded customers would not be enough to offset this.

Lexus can certainly offer "on the side" performance like F-Sport models or a full LS F model, where a performance-first approach would make sense. Certainly not on the regular LS model.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I've driven LSes since '05 and the S-Class has never been a viable option unless I sold both of my kidneys, so in my real world they aren't competitors.

Moreover, this makes sense given the evolution of the LS itself. In an early 2000s LS, you literally could not hear the engine run while inside the car, the suspension was so soft you could run over a Smart car and not notice, and the ECU carefully prevented any sudden changes in speed (like, say, rapid acceleration). In my current '15 you can hear the V8 quite well, potholes definitely make themselves known to your butt, and if I stomp my foot down the thing takes off.

I think that's also the ultimate point with the S Class comparisons. I see posters here putting up pictures of the W222 and drooling over it, but when I see that interior I see my grandmother's living room. My immediate association isn't "luxury", it's "Murder She Wrote" with the sound turned all the way up.

Then respectfully, I must say you don't know much about the market history of the S Class versus the LS.

Ever since the LS debuted, the S Class has always been more expensive, by quite a lot in fact. Always, ever since the 1989 debut. Furthermore, there has NEVER been a point in time where the LS matched the price of the S Class, MSRP to MSRP in terms of directly comparable models. The S Class has always been more expensive than the LS from thousands, to tens of thousands of dollars, depending on the models being compared.

Price alone does not preclude the LS from being a direct S Class competitor, nor does it make the S Class "a class above".

Perhaps to you the S Class hasn't been a viable option, and therefore you don't consider the LS and S Class in the same class, but the market overall sees it differently. In the marketplace, the LS and S Class are cross-shopped quite often in fact. There is lots of data and statistics going back over 20 years on this topic. Ever since the LS debuted, it's been cross-shopped quite often with the S Class (historically in North America at least).

The LS is a direct competitor to the S Class (mainly in North America historically) not because of any price comparisons, but because of pure merit. At this market segment level, price is not a big concern to many buyers. The merit of the vehicle itself however is obviously a factor. The reason no other non-European competitor has ever directly competed with the S Class is because all other would-be competitors never had as much merit as the LS has possessed.

I also feel I need to add, the 3LS from the early 2000s had adaptive suspension, as well as ECT Power mode in the transmission, and there was a limited "Euro tuned" suspension and brake package on the Touring trim. For those who wanted some spirited driving on the 3LS, it was certainly available. You just had to understand all the car functions and put the transmission and adaptive suspension in the proper modes.

 

[meth.ix]

A remake of the Champagne Glasses commercial with the 5LS would be cool!

 

[Ian Schmidt]

Lexus in such a case would lose the majority of LS customers, I can guarantee you that.

According to multiple dealer salespeople I've talked to, that's already happened, twice. One group jumped ship when the 4LS debuted, because the ride was no longer as cushy as the 3LS. Many of them tried a 4LS for 30 or 60 days and decided to go back to 3LS or get a used M-B. A second group did a similar dance when the spindle grille came out; many of them personally liked it, but under peer pressure of the sorts you see commonly on less enlightened auto sites, they returned 'em a month or two later.

The majority of the LS-buying market didn't really flinch though, as the sales numbers show.

In the marketplace, the LS and S Class are cross-shopped quite often in fact. There is lots of data and statistics going back over 20 years on this topic. Ever since the LS debuted, it's been cross-shopped quite often with the S Class (historically in North America at least).

Do you have the actual data on that? I'd love to see it (offline is fine since this is getting away from topic). Because I live in Baltimore and various personal, business, and touristy reasons have me down in DC and its immediate surroundings fairly regularly. As a result, I've seen some seriously ritzy neighborhoods (something like 7 of the top 10 richest zip codes in the US are around DC) and from what I've seen, the money-no-object people always, *always* buy the Benz (or in some cases the Maybach, but let's not go there). The LS/A8/7 play much more up in the Baltimore suburbs where people are upper-middle-class but not super-rich.

I also feel I need to add, the 3LS from the early 2000s had adaptive suspension, as well as ECT Power mode in the transmission, and there was a limited "Euro tuned" suspension and brake package on the Touring trim. For those who wanted some spirited driving on the 3LS, it was certainly available. You just had to understand all the car functions and put the transmission and adaptive suspension in the proper modes.

I was exaggerating for effect, but there *was* a noticable ride smoothness difference between the 3LS and 4LS, and it seemingly got a little bit stiffer over the various refreshes. Yes, even an F-Sport 4LS has a smoother ride than anything sold with a Toyota badge, but the 3LS was definitely plusher.

 

[spwolf]

I was kind of hoping for that as well, but with the LC 500 weighing around 4,100lbs, I think we are looking at every bit of 4,500 to 4,700 for an LS, probably more for LWB versions with AWD and lots of options.

LC (is/seems) by far the lightest car in the class, why would that make you think that LS would be porky?

 

[Ian Schmidt]

For starters, two more doors that open are probably 200 pounds considering the power window mechanism, the locks, and so on. Traditionally the LS has a *lot* of stuff in it; it's unclear yet if the LC will actually match it feature-for-feature (or what those features are going to be).

 

[isanatori]

To be clear, I was speaking of the second delay of the 5LS, which would have happened some time after the "major-minor" LS update in 2012. Really, @Carmaker1 has taken my pet theory and turned it into something more understandable -- the idea that Lexus was tired of chasing the S-Class makes more sense.

Wow! I would have never believed I could hear Lexus insiders pointing that Lexus was chasing the Germans! When everyone has been following the German turbo and diesel trend, Lexus has been releasing hybrids! It was the Germans that EFFECTIVELY defrauded public opinion with their "Clean Diesel Power" against the Lexus hybrids and then following Lexus, by releasing their incompetent hybrids! I understand that you like the German way of thinking and you want Lexus to follow the German way, but as of now I don't see this happening, considering that the 200t engine is very muted compared to competitors, as it seems it is trying to follow the Toyota Century-Lexus standards. I wouldn't be surprised if Lexus wants an LS200t next to GS200t.

But I am not God to predict the future and maybe Lexus ditching their values and start copying the German way of thinking in the near future. Maybe Lexus will want to follow the trend with a new Lexus 200t approach using cheating devices to tackle the emission standards while giving monstrous levels of torque and power.

 

[Gecko]

LC (is/seems) by far the lightest car in the class, why would that make you think that LS would be porky?

Even if LC is "lightest in class," it's still not a light car by any stretch. This is a coupe with a footprint smaller than a GS and it already weighs 4,100lbs.

Think of how much bigger an LS would be, plus two doors, rear seats, extra glass, all of the new technology, safety gear and luxury trimmings that Lexus will add. Current LS SWB RWD is already ~4,300lbs.

New car is going to be 4,500lbs+ to start. I would put money on it. For LS 500L AWD, you are looking at every bit of 4,900lbs.

LS 500L has quite a nice ring to it...

 

[isanatori]

When came across mule spy shots last May, I quickly realised how far out the car truly was and prepared myself to wait until early 2017.

I really do not understand what you mean, but will say this. I have come to the conclusion, that the recall crisis is mostly responsible for the delays. Akio Toyoda pushed this car back, opting to not cancel the L10 GS program and put the LFA into production.

The L10 GS started development mid 2007 and Lexus released this model late 2011, despite recalls and combined disasters in Japan. At late 2011 Lexus could use resources from L10 GS, if they wanted to accelerate the 5th gen LS development. About four (4) years later Lexus released a ground breaking fuel cell LS concept, that does not look like any other competitor. I believe that the fuel cell power train is the only reason Lexus postponed the 5th gen LS. They wanted to save resources and focus on the next big thing. That's why we did not see any concept prior to fuel cell LF-FC, because there wasn't any. By the normal cycle the 5th gen LS would have started since 2008 at a time when Toyota touted their fuel cell FCHV-adv going over 400 miles on a tank. I think by then Lexus took the decision to bring fuel cell on market.

, unlike in 2005-06 when they were blindsided by the improvements of the W221 S-Class and had to design the current model around the inferior W220 S-Class.

My logic says that, If Lexus were blindsided by the competition, they would be in stress to bring the next 5th gen earlier than 2012, not 5-6 years later! They would have certainly given a priority to 5th LS over L10 GS. Also I don't see any similarities among LF-FC and competition to justify your theory. Not only that but If Lexus has had a thinking-tactics strategy by checking what competition do and then postpone models in order to make them better, they would have never release the RC-F, that most car mags love to bash as a FAILURE. A sign of admiration that is, Lexus has their own mature culture and the guts to do what they want, ignoring "elite" journalists and people who appraise the cheating device car machines as the benchmark.