2018 LS Master Thread (Debuts 1/9/17 8:30am -2017 NAIAS)

[Hemi]

When I see some news in comment I always find many comments rregarding s class as being one of the major problems for new LS, but the next generation of s class for instance is at least 4 years ahead. 2018 is the year of the facelift (accoridng to the site below) and that will not be such a threat for new generation of LS at leat in my opinion. viz http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1083845_2018-mercedes-benz-s-class-spy-shots

When it comes to A8, that might be bigger problem. On the other hand Audi does not seem to bring anything which would be a significant change compared to their current generation as LS will surely do. Audi will most probably keep the same direction as well and therefore the number of owners will not be so significant, plus LS will most probably be more serious competitior for A8 as we saw in recent threats which might be worse for Audi at the end.

Nevertheless, I have to admit that Lexus has been waiting too long. They had to reorganize their plans, I dont know what has been taking so long.

Looking forward to next news!

 

[meth.ix]

and maybe F version from the LS65TMG

Yes that's what we have been saying for a long time, the 641 hp engine from the LS Sports 650 TMG would be perfect to destroy the S65 and S8 Plus in every way.

 

[corradoMR2]

My first reaction for an LS 350 is not positive as the 10 year old 2GR-FSE comes to mind. Ok for an IS, less so for a GS, not so for an LS.

 

[maiaramdan]

My first reaction for an LS 350 is not positive as the 10 year old 2GR-FSE comes to mind. Ok for an IS, less so for a GS, not so for an LS.

it will all depends on whether or not they will add assistance to the engine and whether or not the engine is new
if it's totally new engine and have Turbo or Supercharger(as my taste) it will be perfect option
until we reach the worst option that they will slap the current 2GR on it
so we have to wait more to see
but unfortunately i feel they will go with my worst option and just throw the old V6 in it

 

[Gecko]

When I see some news in comment I always find many comments rregarding s class as being one of the major problems for new LS, but the next generation of s class for instance is at least 4 years ahead. 2018 is the year of the facelift (accoridng to the site below) and that will not be such a threat for new generation of LS at leat in my opinion. viz http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1083845_2018-mercedes-benz-s-class-spy-shots

When it comes to A8, that might be bigger problem. On the other hand Audi does not seem to bring anything which would be a significant change compared to their current generation as LS will surely do. Audi will most probably keep the same direction as well and therefore the number of owners will not be so significant, plus LS will most probably be more serious competitior for A8 as we saw in recent threats which might be worse for Audi at the end.

Nevertheless, I have to admit that Lexus has been waiting too long. They had to reorganize their plans, I dont know what has been taking so long.

On the flip side, Mercedes has introduced two generations of S Class over the life of the 4LS. Mercedes can stay evolutionary and be ahead of the curve. At this point, the LS is going to have to be revolutionary to catch the S Class because it's already so painfully far behind.

Do I think they can do it? Yes, but just to catch the S Class is going to be one thing. To leapfrog it is going to be quite another, and if we're being completely honest, innovation hasn't exactly been Lexus' strong suit the last decade or so.

With a refresh on the books for 2018, S Class will be all new in 2020 probably. LS will only be 2 years old at that time, facing a brand new S Class. Yikes...

 

[Levi]

Current old Lexus LS, is not far behind IMO. It is best looking car in class and remains reliable and of good quality. S Class is not as solid as they once were.

 

[Tinhinnh]

My first reaction for an LS 350 is not positive as the 10 year old 2GR-FSE comes to mind. Ok for an IS, less so for a GS, not so for an LS.

Maybe it is just for Japan only, where 300hp is considered "a lot".

 

[Tinhinnh]

it will all depends on whether or not they will add assistance to the engine and whether or not the engine is new
if it's totally new engine and have Turbo or Supercharger(as my taste) it will be perfect option
until we reach the worst option that they will slap the current 2GR on it
so we have to wait more to see
but unfortunately i feel they will go with my worst option and just throw the old V6 in it

If it has a turbo, it would be "350t".

 

[James]

Maybe it is just for Japan only, where 300hp is considered "a lot".

I would like to say I agree. I can't imagine them putting the 3.5 into the LS. I mean it's in the IS. They need a new 3.5 if they are putting it into the LS here in the US or turbo it.

 

[maiaramdan]

we will see
we are nearly 4 month to NAIAS and i think everything will be known by then

 

[Madi]

As we know from Lexus naming policy, the new engine is definitely Naturally Aspirated 3.5L V6

I think it will simulate V6 3.5L TOYOTA TACOMA engine that modified with Otto-Atkinson cycle technology or as named "VVT-iW = Wide Range Variable Valve Timing with Intelligence", and having Port injection and Direct injection at the same time " two fuel systems in the same time "

The old one on GS,RC,IS don't have these new modification that exists on every Toyota/Lexus new engine such as RC F and NX engines.

This will not boost the power, but will improve fuel economy and emissions for the old 3.5 L engine.

I think it's a very good move since I hate Turbos too, and I really do respect Lexus for having its own character by constantly using NA engines and trying to put technologies to make it better and better and not just following the Germans as many manufacturers do.

Finally, I hope Lexus will develop NA V10 or V12 for LS F, and using cylinder deactivation technology besides VVT-iW technology to make it with better fuel economy and emissions than its German rivals.

 

[Gecko]

As we know from Lexus naming policy, the new engine is definitely Naturally Aspirated 3.5L V6

I think it will simulate V6 3.5L TOYOTA TACOMA engine that modified with Otto-Atkinson cycle technology or as named "VVT-iW = Wide Range Variable Valve Timing with Intelligence", and having Port injection and Direct injection at the same time " two fuel systems in the same time "

The old one on GS,RC,IS don't have these new modification that exists on every Toyota/Lexus new engine such as RC F and NX engines.

This will not boost the power, but will improve fuel economy and emissions for the old 3.5 L engine.

I think it's a very good move since I hate Turbos too, and I really do respect Lexus for having its own character by constantly using NA engines and trying to put technologies to make it better and better and not just following the Germans as many manufacturers do.

Finally, I hope Lexus will develop NA V10 or V12 for LS F, and using cylinder deactivation technology besides VVT-iW technology to make it with better fuel economy and emissions than its German rivals.

I have to hope that the same 2GR-FKS that is in the Sienna/Tacoma/Highlander and surely soon the Camry/Avalon etc. will not make it into Lexus' flagship sedan without a thorough update. Lexus has been all over the map with trademarks these last few months and we also have "GS 300" and "NX 300" and no idea what to anticipate from those. Part if me is expecting Lexus to drop "t" and go with a larger number that reflects total output/engine size, similar to how the Germans do it. For instance, "200t" could become "300" and a 3.0L turbo could become "350." Otherwise, Lexus' entire future is going to be t's, h's and F's - bleh.

With the evolution of 2UR-GSE or transition from 2GR-FE to 2GR-FKS, the engine has gained substantial power with the addition of VVT-iW. I wouldn't necessary say "this will not boost power" because in every application, we've seen horsepower increase.

In those allegedly leaked documents for the 5GS, I think they were projecting the next gen turbo V6 to make 394hp? I expect that to be pretty accurate.

If a V6 LS debuts with either the 2GR-FSE or 2GR-FKS as carryover engines, I will literally walk away from Lexus forever. Thats how sure I am about it NOT happening.

 

[maiaramdan]

Finally, I hope Lexus will develop NA V10 or V12 for LS F, and using cylinder deactivation technology besides VVT-iW technology to make it with better fuel economy and emissions than its German rivals.

i really like your idea for the F brand
even it's pretty much accurate that the V-10 is dead after the LF-A
and Lexus already never had V12

I have to hope that the same 2GR-FKS that is in the Sienna/Tacoma/Highlander and surely soon the Camry/Avalon etc. will not make it into Lexus' flagship sedan without a thorough update. Lexus has been all over the map with trademarks these last few months and we also have "GS 300" and "NX 300" and no idea what to anticipate from those. Part if me is expecting Lexus to drop "t" and go with a larger number that reflects total output/engine size, similar to how the Germans do it. For instance, "200t" could become "300" and a 3.0L turbo could become "350." Otherwise, Lexus' entire future is going to be t's, h's and F's - bleh.

With the evolution of 2UR-GSE or transition from 2GR-FE to 2GR-FKS, the engine has gained substantial power with the addition of VVT-iW. I wouldn't necessary say "this will not boost power" because in every application, we've seen horsepower increase.

In those allegedly leaked documents for the 5GS, I think they were projecting the next gen turbo V6 to make 394hp? I expect that to be pretty accurate.

If a V6 LS debuts with either the 2GR-FSE or 2GR-FKS as carryover engines, I will literally walk away from Lexus forever. Thats how sure I am about it NOT happening.

i still believe that Lexus letters here to stay
still not yet to go
regarding the engine what if it's only carryout current 2GR just for Japan / south east Asia and the high taxes states

honestly i maybe alone but still believe that the solution for Lexus is in the KERS
something like this beloved Yaris
http://www.carscoops.com/2013/09/420hp-toyota-yaris-hybrid-r-concept.html

 

[Joaquin Ruhi]

I have to hope that the same 2GR-FKS that is in the Sienna/Tacoma/Highlander and surely soon the Camry/Avalon etc. will not make it into Lexus' flagship sedan without a thorough update...

With the evolution of 2UR-GSE or transition from 2GR-FE to 2GR-FKS, the engine has gained substantial power with the addition of VVT-iW. I wouldn't necessary say "this will not boost power" because in every application, we've seen horsepower increase.

In those allegedly leaked documents for the 5GS, I think they were projecting the next gen turbo V6 to make 394hp? I expect that to be pretty accurate.

If a V6 LS debuts with either the 2GR-FSE or 2GR-FKS as carryover engines, I will literally walk away from Lexus forever. Thats how sure I am about it NOT happening.

Whoa! Them's fightin' words! I hate to do this, but I'm going to be the contrarian, realist, pessimist - whatever you want to call it - and suggest that the 5th-gen LS, like the LC 500h, will stick with the tried-and-true 2GR engine family. Here's why I feel that way:

Though smaller and lighter, the LC is the de facto coupe sibling to the LS sedan. Both will roll out the new GA-L platform, and both have seen "500" (5-liter V8") and 500h (3.5-liter V6 hybrid with 5-liter V8-equivalent performance) trademarks. Thus, it stands to reason that both will share the same powertrains, though possibly in different states of tune (depending on LC vs LS curb weights) in order to avoid the U.S. EPA Gas Guzzler Tax penalty.

Upon its debut at the 2016 Geneva Motor Show, the Lexus USA Newsroom press release http://pressroom.lexus.com/releases/world+premiere+lexus+lc+500h+geneva+motor+show.htm
revealed that the LC 500h would have a 3456cc V6 engine with a 94mm bore and 83mm stroke. Those numbers are a spot-on match for the current 2GR engines. If Lexus were to launch a brand-new, clean-sheet engine, chances are one or more of those numbers would be a bit different. If the LC 500h seemingly sticks with the 2GR, why wouldn't the new LS follow suit?

With the current GS 350 using the more evolved, dual Otto/Atkinson cycle 2GR-FKS, this is the least I'd expect in an LS 350. Might Lexus roll out some extra bells and whistles and improvements over and above the FKS? It's possible, but I wouldn't necessarily bet on it.

I know a number of Lexus Enthusiasts on here look at the competition's more frequent rollout of all-new engines and complain that the GR engine is old and stale and overdue for replacement. But, again being the contrarian, I'll cite the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" and "don't throw out the baby with the bathwater" clichés and remind everyone that the GR engines are good, smooth, efficient in both power output and fuel economy, and, above all, have typically exemplary Toyota/Lexus reliability. Oh, and the 2GR-FSE has four WardsAuto 10 Best Engines titles under its belt.

I'll end my little rant with a passage from my Kaizen Factor piece when the LC 500 and LC 500h trademarks first surfaced back in 2014:
http://kaizen-factor.com/lexus-registers-lc-500-lc-500h-trademarks/

Lexus may indeed surprise us with an all-new 4-liter V6 or V8 for the production LC 500h. Toyota and Lexus’ history of long-lived 6-cylinder engines augurs against this, though. The GR V6s’ predecessor, the MZ V6 engine family was offered in Toyota-produced vehicles from 1994 until 2010, and celebrated its 20th anniversary still in limited production for the fugly reptilian (or is it amphibian?) Mitsuoka Orochi 2-seater. Toyota’s original V6, the VZ, was in production for 16 years (from 1988 to 2004). And many of us still mourn the death of Toyota’s much-loved JZ inline 6 after 17 years in production. By comparison, the just over a decade-old GR V6 is still a child that has yet to reach adolescence.

 

[mikeavelli]

I said it in another thread...I drive the Vossen S8 often, it makes 650hp plus tuned and over 700lbs of torque. It gets significantly better MPG than my 400hp LS 460 (titanium exhaust freed up some ponies). My LS gets 13 MPG on average and its slow compared to the competition.

Y'all know I love Lexus but the same V-8 basically unchanged for over a decade in the LS? Yes its as reliable as my wife telling me slow down but damn that is a LOOOOONNNGGG time.

 

[Madi]

I have to hope that the same 2GR-FKS that is in the Sienna/Tacoma/Highlander and surely soon the Camry/Avalon etc. will not make it into Lexus' flagship sedan without a thorough update. Lexus has been all over the map with trademarks these last few months and we also have "GS 300" and "NX 300" and no idea what to anticipate from those. Part if me is expecting Lexus to drop "t" and go with a larger number that reflects total output/engine size, similar to how the Germans do it. For instance, "200t" could become "300" and a 3.0L turbo could become "350." Otherwise, Lexus' entire future is going to be t's, h's and F's - bleh.

With the evolution of 2UR-GSE or transition from 2GR-FE to 2GR-FKS, the engine has gained substantial power with the addition of VVT-iW. I wouldn't necessary say "this will not boost power" because in every application, we've seen horsepower increase.

In those allegedly leaked documents for the 5GS, I think they were projecting the next gen turbo V6 to make 394hp? I expect that to be pretty accurate.

If a V6 LS debuts with either the 2GR-FSE or 2GR-FKS as carryover engines, I will literally walk away from Lexus forever. Thats how sure I am about it NOT happening.

Yeah i meant the boost of power may be due to enhancements in Exhaust and Intake manifolds, and using lighter materials for the engine's moving parts, not due VVT-iW technology since its impossible for VVT-iW application to give you any power advantage.

The Otto cycle which is responsible on high power section remains the same, VVT-iW add ability to the engine to switch to fully Atkinson cycle in eco driving conditions that's all . As known Atkinson cycle engines are too under powered but too fuel efficient .

 

[Gecko]

Whoa! Them's fightin' words! I hate to do this, but I'm going to be the contrarian, realist, pessimist - whatever you want to call it - and suggest that the 5th-gen LS, like the LC 500h, will stick with the tried-and-true 2GR engine family. Here's why I feel that way:

Though smaller and lighter, the LC is the de facto coupe sibling to the LS sedan. Both will roll out the new GA-L platform, and both have seen "500" (5-liter V8") and 500h (3.5-liter V6 hybrid with 5-liter V8-equivalent performance) trademarks. Thus, it stands to reason that both will share the same powertrains, though possibly in different states of tune (depending on LC vs LS curb weights) in order to avoid the U.S. EPA Gas Guzzler Tax penalty.

Upon its debut at the 2016 Geneva Motor Show, the Lexus USA Newsroom press release http://pressroom.lexus.com/releases/world+premiere+lexus+lc+500h+geneva+motor+show.htm
revealed that the LC 500h would have a 3456cc V6 engine with a 94mm bore and 83mm stroke. Those numbers are a spot-on match for the current 2GR engines. If Lexus were to launch a brand-new, clean-sheet engine, chances are one or more of those numbers would be a bit different. If the LC 500h seemingly sticks with the 2GR, why wouldn't the new LS follow suit?

With the current GS 350 using the more evolved, dual Otto/Atkinson cycle 2GR-FKS, this is the least I'd expect in an LS 350. Might Lexus roll out some extra bells and whistles and improvements over and above the FKS? It's possible, but I wouldn't necessarily bet on it.

I know a number of Lexus Enthusiasts on here look at the competition's more frequent rollout of all-new engines and complain that the GR engine is old and stale and overdue for replacement. But, again being the contrarian, I'll cite the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" and "don't throw out the baby with the bathwater" clichés and remind everyone that the GR engines are good, smooth, efficient in both power output and fuel economy, and, above all, have typically exemplary Toyota/Lexus reliability. Oh, and the 2GR-FSE has four WardsAuto 10 Best Engines titles under its belt.

I'll end my little rant with a passage from my Kaizen Factor piece when the LC 500 and LC 500h trademarks first surfaced back in 2014:
http://kaizen-factor.com/lexus-registers-lc-500-lc-500h-trademarks/

Great post.

I agree with your sentiments that the GR family is still very solid and very relevant. The new 2GR-FKS is really a great engine - it's smooth, it's efficient, it sounds great and it's reliable.

However, I think it's fair to expect this next LS to weigh somewhere around four and a half thousand pounds and at that rate, ~300hp/~280lb-ft aren't really great numbers when the 6 cylinder options from BMW and Audi are torque rich through forced induction, and also produce more horsepower. If Lexus can massage this engine a bit and get it closer to 330hp/300lb-ft of torque, then I think they are in the right ballpark.

If we get an LS 350 with 306hp/277lb-ft of torque, or 295hp and 267lb-ft of torque, I'm really just going to laugh. Using the 2GR as a base for the 500h powertrain? I get it - great move, and its torquey because of the hybrid component. But if they plug a 12 year old engine (2GR-FSE) into a 2018 MY car, I will have serious doubts about what is happening with this company...

 

[Madi]

Great post.

I agree with your sentiments that the GR family is still very solid and very relevant. The new 2GR-FKS is really a great engine - it's smooth, it's efficient, it sounds great and it's reliable.

However, I think it's fair to expect this next LS to weigh somewhere around four and a half thousand pounds and at that rate, ~300hp/~280lb-ft aren't really great numbers when the 6 cylinder options from BMW and Audi are torque rich through forced induction, and also produce more horsepower. If Lexus can massage this engine a bit and get it closer to 330hp/300lb-ft of torque, then I think they are in the right ballpark.

If we get an LS 350 with 306hp/277lb-ft of torque, or 295hp and 267lb-ft of torque, I'm really just going to laugh. Using the 2GR as a base for the 500h powertrain? I get it - great move, and its torquey because of the hybrid component. But if they plug a 12 year old engine (2GR-FSE) into a 2018 MY car, I will have serious doubts about what is happening with this company...

What's wrong with this 306hp/277lb-ft as base engine ?? - If they will use an already exist engine they definitely will go with GS 350 engine not RX 350 engine -

Do you know whats the base engine of BMW 7-Series ??

Yes 730i and 730iL have a 4 Cyl , 2.0 Liter engine with 258 hp and 295 lb-ft

I think NA 3.5 L Engine as base is far better than 2.0 L Turbo that BMW using now ..

 

[Gecko]

What's wrong with this 306hp/277lb-ft as base engine ?? - If they will use an already exist engine they definitely will go with GS 350 engine not RX 350 engine -

Do you know whats the base engine of BMW 7-Series ??

Yes 730i and 730iL have a 4 Cyl , 2.0 Liter engine with 258 hp and 295 lb-ft

I think NA 3.5 L Engine as base is far better than 2.0 L Turbo that BMW using now ..

I don't even think a V6 LS would compete with a 4cyl 7 Series, as they make 6cyl versions of the 7 Series as well, though I see your point about comparing base engines. However, in most of the markets where 2.0L 4cyl engines exist, it's because they're taxed on displacement so the comparison of 2.0L 4cyl to 3.5L V6 is not really apples to apples.

BMW's turbo 3.0L I6 makes 320hp and 330lb-ft of torque, and even that is estimated to be somewhat underrated.

The A8 3.0T makes 333hp and 325lb-ft of torque.

Lexus' biggest problem isn't necessarily horsepower, it's torque. The Germans enjoy a 50lb-ft advantage there, and that makes all the difference in "feeling fast."

 

[Levi]

The "old" NA V6 is not really old when compared to competitors. And the "old" V6 with turbos added won't make it a "new" engine. But that is what the Germans have been doing, modifying their old engines, by adding turbos, adding and removing cylinders.