2017 Cadillac XT5 (First Drive Pg 5)

[mikeavelli]

Honestly any SUV sells once its vanilla with space. Nothing proved this more to me than the 2012-2014 RDX which was on par with a 1999 RX 300. And it sold like hotcakes.

Once Caddy doesn't try to raise the price up substantially this should continue to sell well. The current SRX is usually in the top 5 in SUV sales.

 

[mmcartalk]

However, we're talking about Chevy parts compared to a Mercedes S Class (CT6's competitive set) and you have to keep that in perspective.

Well, for that matter, the S-Class interior, for the price, does not particularly impress me....neither does its very thin exterior sheet metal. What the S-Class DOES have, though (and I'll be the first to admit it) is superb chassis and powertrain engineering.

Chevy interiors were so bad for so long - and quite frankly, they still are probably bottom third in the market - that saying they have improved isn't really much of a qualifier.

You're correct that they were junk for years, but, with all due respect, I think you underestimate the recent ones.

GM tends to use a basic, all caps, early 90-s looking font that's white and too small relative to the size of a button- on every button on an interior. Ford does the same thing. The Asians and Germans quite simply understand that these details matter. Make nice buttons for a Camry and you might be able to use some of them in an ES or RX. Chevy's buttons are ugly no matter what they're in, which just makes them even more out of line when stacked up against an A8 or S Class.

Chevy buttons and switchgear seem to vary quite a bit from one model vehicle to the other. In the Sonic, for example, they actually use motorcycle-type gauges/layout....not the case with other Chevys. But, since we were (ultimately) talking about the Cadillac XT5 , I'll have to pass further judgement until actually see what kind of switchgear is in it. If I think you're right, I'll be the first one to agree.

(I'll say one thing, though, right off the bat. I definitely don't like those finger-slide sensor-controls for fan speed, radio volume, cabin-temperature, etc....that both Cadillac and Lincoln have used for several years. Lincoln has partly corrected this in the MKC, with some (not all) of the functions gong back to rotary-dials).

A typical example of those finger-slide/sensor controls is found in the Lincoln MKZ:

 

[IS-SV]

Well, for that matter, the S-Class interior, for the price, does not particularly impress me....neither does its very thin exterior sheet metal. What the S-Class DOES have, though (and I'll be the first to admit it) is superb chassis and powertrain engineering.
t

Lol, but when did you take sheet metal thickness measurements? And what were results?
(Sorry too funny)

 

[mmcartalk]

Lol, but when did you take sheet metal thickness measurements? And what were results?

I was referring to the way the metal buckles in and out with the push of one finger. Nothing unbelievable about that....nor did I find it funny. A number of new vehicles seem to have that problem. You can call it anything you want.....to me, thin seemed a reasonable adjective.

 

[IS-SV]

I was referring to the way the metal buckles in and out with the push of one finger. Nothing unbelievable about that....nor did I find it funny. A number of new vehicles seem to have that problem. You can call it anything you want.....to me, thin seemed a reasonable adjective.

Btw-Sheet metal does that on every car in 2015. It's hilarious to think that's some criteria for distinguishing anything. But at least you didn't add any expounding virtues of Saturn door panels (again and again) so we can let it ride... No prob.

 

[mmcartalk]

Btw-Sheet metal does that on every car in 2015. It's hilarious to think that's some criteria for distinguishing anything. But at least you didn't add any expounding virtues of Saturn door panels (again and again) so we can let it ride... No prob.

I figured this is not the place or thread to discuss Saturn, which does not even offer products in 2015 anymore. So.....I'll let that ride.

 

[IS-SV]

I figured this is not the place or thread to discuss Saturn, which does not even offer products in 2015 anymore. So.....I'll let that ride.

Good idea, not applicable anywhere in Lexus Enthusiast forum (never was a premium brand).

 

[IS-SV]

Once Caddy doesn't try to raise the price up substantially this should continue to sell well. The current SRX is usually in the top 5 in SUV sales.

Let's hope they learned something about price increases from latest CTS fiasco. Bloated pricing followed by deep discounts followed by poor residuals/poor resale value is not a pattern worth repeating.

 

[mmcartalk]

Honestly any SUV sells once its vanilla with space. Nothing proved this more to me than the 2012-2014 RDX which was on par with a 1999 RX 300. And it sold like hotcakes.

Yes, it's not hard to see why the 2Gen 2012 RDX sold so much better than the original one. It simply appealed to a much larger cross-section of buyers....and was much more refined. The original one was more sport-oriented than a lot of typical SUV buyers wanted. It used Honda/Acura's first U.S.-market turbo 4, and the strong throttle response, after some slight turbo lag, was like an on/off switch.....all or nothing. In addition, it rode roughly over bumps, had significant road noise for a vehicle in that premium class, and handled like a slot car (by crossover SUV standards).

The 2Gen was not like that....Acura made several notable changes. The jerky, all-or-nothing turbo four was replaced by a smooth refined N/A V6, the underpinnings were softened up a bit, better insulation was used, and more emphasis was placed on comfort. Sales, predictably, took off. In fact, they doubled from 2011 to 2012, and then increased another 50% for 2013.

 

[mmcartalk]

Let's hope they learned something about price increases from latest CTS fiasco. Bloated pricing followed by deep discounts followed by poor residuals/poor resale value is not a pattern worth repeating.

They may (?) have to drop the CTS's price when the CT-6 flagship debuts....if not before, depending on the CT-6's popularity. If the CT-6 is a hit (and we know the ill-fated XTS wasn't), then it will draw some existing demand away from the CTS....although, as you and others have noted, there's not a huge amount of demand for the current CTS to start with, particularly at its price. I'm not going to attempt to predict the CT-6's popularity right now, as its heavily wood-paneled interior (despite the CUE) might appeal to Cadillac traditionalists, while the more modern drivetrain and underpinnings would maybe appeal more to those who currently would look at the CTS.

As for the XT5 thread topic...IMO, that's an even harder one to try and predict right now, considering the SRX's present popularity. I am of the general opinion, though, that, except for the boomerang-shaped light-housing on the edges of the front fenders which makes the front end look more busy than necessary, the XT5's overall styling might be less polarizing than the current chisel-block SRX, despite the SRX's popularity.

 

[IS-SV]

They may (?) have to drop the CTS's price when the CT-6 flagship debuts....if not before, depending on the CT-6's popularity. If the CT-6 is a hit (and we know the ill-fated XTS wasn't), then it will draw some existing demand away from the CTS....although, as you and others have noted, there's not a huge amount of demand for the current CTS to start with, particularly at its price. I'm not going to attempt to predict the CT-6's popularity right now, as its heavily wood-paneled interior (despite the CUE) might appeal to Cadillac traditionalists, while the more modern drivetrain and underpinnings would maybe appeal more to those who currently would look at the CTS.

.

My guess is cutting CTS pricing just adds to embarrassment and may not happen. I don't expect jumbo CT-6 to be a volume car that erodes CTS sales in American market. I suspect Caddy is viewing situation same way.

I only brought up CTS (pricing) problems because of need for Caddy to use better judgment in pricing the new SUV.

 

[mikeavelli]

The CT-6 is sadly IMO DOA...for one the name is dumb, two there is no V-8 option initially, three the styling is cool but not going to make people drool and trade in their current flagships for it. I applaud Cadillac for jumping into this segment but from what I've seen they didn't do it right at all. They need a huge giant, OMG car, a huge SPLASH, s something to truly re-energize the brand. Not an also-ran which Infiniti learned all too well with.

A big Caddy sedan with no V-8? Does that make an iota of sense?

http://www.cadillac.com/future-vehicles/ct6-sedan.html

I'm looking at this car and it does not make me think "mahn I would love to get this over the CURRENT competition, let alone the new generations coming".

The only saving grace which I cannot account for is maybe there is a huge market of people that have been waiting for a flagship Cadillac and they will buy it and nothing else. Its entirely plausible I suppose. However I don't think that is the demographic Caddy is aiming for.

 

[Gecko]

If I think about it, I guess Caddy doesn't have an available V8 outside of V cars (sans Escalade). That's odd...

 

[mikeavelli]

If I think about it, I guess Caddy doesn't have an available V8 outside of V cars (sans Escalade). That's odd...

Mike, that just hit me when I was writing that...all their car V-8s are performance cars...Camaro, Corvette...odd to think they will give the CTS-V the S/C Vette engine but not give it the base Corvette V-8....

 

[mmcartalk]

They need a huge giant, OMG car, a huge SPLASH,
A big Caddy sedan with no V-8? Does that make an iota of sense?

Well, yes, to an extent, it does to me (I've always been with you on that), but, many others laugh and scoff at that suggestion......that it would be living in the past, that only Grandpa and Grandma would want another DeVille/DTS or Fleetwood replacement. It would, though, maybe have a market with the limo and executive-car business.

 

[mikeavelli]

Well, yes, to an extent, it does to me (I've always been with you on that), but, many others laugh and scoff at that suggestion......that it would be living in the past, that only Grandpa and Grandma would want another Fleetwood or Fleetwood replacement. It would, though, maybe have a market with the limo and executive-car business.

This becoming a Limo car hurts an already shaky image. I certainly hope that isn't what happens. The new 7 series for example from a tech and engine standpoint demolishes this. Again, to me, if they wanted to truly make an impact, they needed to create a car that is better than everything arguably for less, ala the original LS 400. If you don't go that route, you will be an also-ran.

 

[mmcartalk]

This becoming a Limo car hurts an already shaky image. I certainly hope that isn't what happens. The new 7 series for example from a tech and engine standpoint demolishes this. Again, to me, if they wanted to truly make an impact, they needed to create a car that is better than everything arguably for less, ala the original LS 400. If you don't go that route, you will be an also-ran.

That's the problem...for less. You've owned an LS.....you know what a good car it is, and I know from reviews. If Cadillac made a car like the LS, they would probably have to charge an LS's price....partly because of UAW wages, even though the UAW has already taken some big pay and benefit cuts. And some already complain that Cadillac prices, especially with the CTS, are already too high for what they offer, though, with the ATS-V, some superb engineering goes with it.

 

[mikeavelli]

That's the problem...for less. You've owned an LS.....you know what a good car it is, and I know from reviews. If Cadillac made a car like the LS, they would probably have to charge an LS's price....partly because of UAW wages, even though the UAW has already taken some big pay and benefit cuts. And some already complain that Cadillac prices, especially with the CTS, are already too high for what they offer, though, with the ATS-V, some superb engineering goes with it.

Well I'm sure Cadillac has their business model with the UAW already included so to me its a non-factor. Today if the CTS-6 debuts, it debuts with a V-6tt, sure at 420hp but still its a V-6. Not exactly how you want to debut when this market is about V-8s. The V-6 should be an option not your only engine.

I agree people complain about CTS prices but Caddy attempted something very tough, to move an existing nameplate up tens of thousands of dollars more. The CT-6 being a new nameplate won't have the baggage of people trying to rationalize why it costs so much if a previous generation existed at thousands more.

Trust, we all want Caddy to succeed and kick some ass. But to me all I see is marketing fluff in the press thus far and a CEO obsessed with changing names and moving people lol

 

[IS-SV]

Well, yes, to an extent, it does to me (I've always been with you on that), but, many others laugh and scoff at that suggestion......that it would be living in the past, that only Grandpa and Grandma would want another DeVille/DTS or Fleetwood replacement. It would, though, maybe have a market with the limo and executive-car business.

A limo car is just another form of low profit fleet sales, not a lucrative path to success in large car premium car segment.

Even the limo/towncar business is trending like full-sized cars in general (declining sales), often favoring good-sized SUVs (usually big crossover SUVs at retail level).

 

[IS-SV]

That's the problem...for less. You've owned an LS.....you know what a good car it is, and I know from reviews. If Cadillac made a car like the LS, they would probably have to charge an LS's price....partly because of UAW wages, even though the UAW has already taken some big pay and benefit cuts. And some already complain that Cadillac prices, especially with the CTS, are already too high for what they offer, though, with the ATS-V, some superb engineering goes with it.

That's not the point. Cadillac is in no position to charge LS prices, they don't have the cache, reputation and product to justify. Final pricing for commodities (mass produced cars) is rarely determined by cost plus formula, it should be market-driven. There's plenty of room for correct pricing, proof being CTS with after the fact discounts and rebates. Sure profit margins will be slimmer, but sustainable.

UAW is not a factor, Japan is an very expensive place (including labor costs) to build cars.