Updated 2016 Honda Accord Snapped

[mmcartalk]

Too many broad generalizations not necessarily accurate IMO about old Hondas and old Mazdas (fond foggy fuzzy memories it seems ), not that it matters in this particular thread.

I speak from ownership experience, at least on the Mazda part of it, as I drove several different Mazdas for almost 12 years. But you're right...it's not particularly important to this thread, as the topic is the new Accord.

Lots of reasons for Accords sharp sales declines already mentioned, but at least they can earn "feathers in cap" I guess. Unfortunately the Accord coupes V6's and manuals aren't making big difference on sales chart.

We'll have to wait for the final specs, but I will be surprised if the new Accord keeps the V6 option. In fact, Honda, for years, resisted a V6 Accord in the first place, only (ultimately) bowing to consumer and enthusiast demand. But that was then....now the CAFE rules are looming. We've already seen some of the Accord's competitors go with all-fours....in some cases with turbos

 

[IS-SV]

We'll have to wait for the final specs, but I will be surprised if the new Accord keeps the V6 option. In fact, Honda, for years, resisted a V6 Accord in the first place, only (ultimately) bowing to consumer and enthusiast demand. But that was then....now the CAFE rules are looming. We've already seen some of the Accord's competitors go with all-fours....in some cases with turbos

I am guessing V6 might remain until next gen/redesign. At that point redesign changes accommodating 4 banger only configs will result in bigger weight reductions (bigger than just the engine itself) in so many areas including chassis, suspension, tranny/drivetrain and therefore bigger imprevements in MPG. Accord's competitors and some premium fwd cars are already going design route I described.

 

[CIF]

CIF good point about the Altima, its also very good to me. If we want to expand further, the Accord sales does include coupe too.

Exactly. There was a time years ago when the Camry and Accord were the top 2 in the US midsize sedan segment. Now however the segment is much more competitive. Toyota has managed to retain its dominant spot in the segment, but Honda clearly has not, being #3 now in segment sales. Not only that, the Fusion is almost neck-and-neck year-to-date with Accord sales. The Accord could very possibly drop to #4 in segment sales.

 

[mmcartalk]

Exactly. There was a time years ago when the Camry and Accord were the top 2 in the US midsize sedan segment. Now however the segment is much more competitive. Toyota has managed to retain its dominant spot in the segment, but Honda clearly has not, being #3 now in segment sales. Not only that, the Fusion is almost neck-and-neck year-to-date with Accord sales. The Accord could very possibly drop to #4 in segment sales.

This is, IMO, actually a great time to be shopping for a mainstream mid-sized sedan....the prospective car buyer has an excellent choice. I can't remember a time when so many good products were (or are) available in this class. Even Chrysler and GM, long known for poor-qualiy rental-grade sedans in this category, now have respectable products in this class with the new 200 and Malibu, not to mention Ford's excellent Fusion. (Oops...you just did mention the Fusion, above)

 

[IS-SV]

So as it relates to topic here, wondering if 2016 refresh will help Accord sales enough to get back to 2nd place in thus segment?... My guess, probably help it retain no. 3 spot since it's only a refresh.

 

[mikeavelli]

So as it relates to topic here, wondering if 2016 refresh will help Accord sales enough to get back to 2nd place in thus segment?... My guess, probably help it retain no. 3 spot since it's only a refresh.

Interestingly it hasn't been shouted out on the internet but the Accord dropped their double wishbone suspension which made prior models more sporty than the competition in the past. The Mazda6 now has that place securely. They chased sales and not enthusiasts and sales are down, which is not normal. Obviously this segment is very heated with the Americans strong here too. Oddly enough this model is my favorite behind the 1992-1996 or so model then the model after that.

 

[mmcartalk]

So as it relates to topic here, wondering if 2016 refresh will help Accord sales enough to get back to 2nd place in thus segment?... My guess, probably help it retain no. 3 spot since it's only a refresh.

Even with the Accord's good sales history, I personally think it will take more than a refresh to get back to second place. There's simply too much good competition today in the mainstream mid-size sedan category...and other vehicles are also getting refreshes. Even King Camry's numbers, though still solidly in first place, are down from its heyday.

The (current) enormous popularity of Honda's car-based SUVs may also be working against American-market Civic and Accord sales numbers right now, especially since, like some other manufacturers, Honda won't market AWD passenger here.

 

[IS-SV]

Good point on Mazda6 and such a great looking car too. Mazda seems to have that careful balance of sport and refinement dialed-in, kinda of like Honda used to do it better than all of its competitors. Mazda's latest "full-suite" Skyactiv designs (3, 6, CX-3, CX-5) truly stand out in the crowd for more serious car buyers on tight budget.

Agreed refresh isn't likely to make big difference on sales chart. All of the sedans face strong shift to SUV's, so that's not a problem unique to Accord with the bigger sales decline/more slippage than Camry, Fusion, Altima. Only the CRV is huge SUV success for Honda, the top selling dominate mid-sized SUVs are other brands, so much of the Accord sales erosion is likely benefiting other brands.

 

[mmcartalk]

Interestingly it hasn't been shouted out on the internet but the Accord dropped their double wishbone suspension which made prior models more sporty than the competition in the past. The Mazda6 now has that place securely. They chased sales and not enthusiasts and sales are down, which is not normal. Obviously this segment is very heated with the Americans strong here too. Oddly enough this model is my favorite behind the 1992-1996 or so model then the model after that.

You may have a point about enthusiasts (and I agree), but I don't quite see how dropping the double-wishbones is chasing after sales. Most buyers of this type of vehicle are looking for basic, moderately-priced, comfortable personal or family transportation, and aren't that concerned with the underpinnings. McPherson struts are now widely used because they are simple, compact, fit into most FWD layouts very well, and generally less expensive to produce....but I agree that struts have some disadvantages as well. They make changing shocks more difficult, require special tools and procedures to remove and/or replace, and, of course, (as you note) are somewhat less-precise in the handling/refinement compromise.

I'm fully with you, though, on the early-90s Accords (IMO best ones ever built). Seems like both the best Accords and best Camrys were built around that period....and helped both establish their sales tradition.

A look at the specs, though, shows that as of 2016, the Mazda6 has struts up front, multilinks in the rear, and stabilizer bars front and rear. Although I haven't seen the formal 2016 Accord specs, for 2015, it was the same as the Mazda6....struts up front, multilinks in back, and front/rear stabilizer bars.

 

[CIF]

So as it relates to topic here, wondering if 2016 refresh will help Accord sales enough to get back to 2nd place in thus segment?... My guess, probably help it retain no. 3 spot since it's only a refresh.

Personally I doubt it. The refreshed car in the spy shots in this thread doesn't look vastly improved. It looks like a very subtle refresh, unlike the major 2015 Camry refresh. What should be more concerning to Honda is that the Altima will soon get a refresh, and the next-generation Camry is not far off either. The Ford Fusion could easily start outselling the Accord, and the Accord could end up stuck in 4th place in segment sales, even with the refresh.

 

[mmcartalk]

Personally I doubt it. The refreshed car in the spy shots in this thread doesn't look vastly improved. It looks like a very subtle refresh, unlike the major 2015 Camry refresh. What should be more concerning to Honda is that the Altima will soon get a refresh, and the next-generation Camry is not far off either. The Ford Fusion could easily start outselling the Accord, and the Accord could end up stuck in 4th place in segment sales, even with the refresh.

Couldn't agree more on the Fusion. But there are other excellent competitors as well.

One thing, though, that has generally been overlooked in this Accord discussion is that Hondas rarely sell with factory incentives, because the factory usually doesn't provide them...they simply don't market their vehicles that way. And, with some widely popular Honda products like the CR-V and Odyssey, they usually don't have to. But if, for any reason, the Accord does slip into 4th place (and with so many excellent competitors, it's certainly possible), Honda's marketers may have to bite the no-rebate bullet and rethink their policy.

 

[CIF]

Good point, but historically Honda has shown it can be quite stubborn, even when a decision seems obvious or beneficial to the company.

On that note, the Accord has also famously had very low fleet sales, although the Camry has often had low fleet sales as well. Also on the topic of incentives, Camry incentives these days are quite low too, lower than they were years ago.
Plus, I'm quite certain that Camry fleet sales are very low. For example, in all the rental agencies in my area, trying to find a 2015 Camry to rent is virtually impossible.
So put in context, that makes Toyota's continued strong position in the segment all the more impressive. I know years ago at one point the previous-generation Camry had a larger fleet sales percentage and more incentives offered.

 

[mmcartalk]

Good point, but historically Honda has shown it can be quite stubborn, even when a decision seems obvious or beneficial to the company.

Agreed...but IMO, there Acura division has been even more stubborn.

On that note, the Accord has also famously had very low fleet sales, although the Camry has often had low fleet sales as well. Also on the topic of incentives, Camry incentives these days are quite low too, lower than they were years ago.
Plus, I'm quite certain that Camry fleet sales are very low. For example, in all the rental agencies in my area, trying to find a 2015 Camry to rent is virtually impossible.
So put in context, that makes Toyota's continued strong position in the segment all the more impressive. I know years ago at one point the previous-generation Camry had a larger fleet sales percentage and more incentives offered.

You might disagree with me on this (and, if so, I'll respect your opinion), but I don't think the Camry, though obviously a good mid-size sedan, is that much better than its competitors that it necessarily deserves to be in first place every year, fleet sales or not.

 

[CIF]

On the point of Acura, indeed. Most recent example being the controversial development process of the new NSX.

On the topic of the Camry, I'll say this. The Camry IMHO, is the most balanced midsize sedan in the segment. Is it the best? Well depends who you ask, and what "best" means to you. To some it means best-handling and best-performing. To some it means having the edgiest or most polarizing styling. To others it means having the best quality and reliability. To others it means having the most comfort, refinement and interior space. No sedan is the best at all of those things, including the Camry, as it's just not possible in today's super competitive market, not to mention some attributes contradict each other. The Camry I think manages to offer a very well-balanced package overall compared to the competition. That is why I think it has managed to retain top spot.

To put it in another sense, "best" to me means most balanced, and in that context yes, the Camry is the best personally speaking.

If I were in the market for a midsize sedan right now, the Camry would be my obvious choice. Different people will certainly have different personal preferences of course.

 

[mmcartalk]

On the topic of the Camry, I'll say this. The Camry IMHO, is the most balanced midsize sedan in the segment. Is it the best? Well depends who you ask, and what "best" means to you. To some it means best-handling and best-performing. To some it means having the edgiest or most polarizing styling. To others it means having the best quality and reliability. To others it means having the most comfort, refinement and interior space. No sedan is the best at all of those things, including the Camry, as it's just not possible in today's super competitive market, not to mention some attributes contradict each other. The Camry I think manages to offer a very well-balanced package overall compared to the competition. That is why I think it has managed to retain top spot.

To put it in another sense, "best" to me means most balanced, and in that context yes, the Camry is the best personally speaking.

If I were in the market for a midsize sedan right now, the Camry would be my obvious choice. Different people will certainly have different personal preferences of course.

Good explanation on your part, especially from an auto enthusiast's point of view. Many buyers, though, in this class of car (mainstream mid-size family sedan), like with full-size American trucks, simply buy out of habit or previous ownership, without really checking out the competition. I've known people who have owned several Accords, for example, one after the other, simply because they had one before, or because Mom or Dad got them started on one 20 years ago.

 

[IS-SV]

The "gap" in sales units the Camry has on its direct competition is huge, for the good reasons mentioned above. The subtle nice strengths/attributes of the Accord are now Camry strengths too, (not that they were that difficult for a company with Toyotas resources to engineer-in today).

Today I talked to my very close relative with Camry Hybrid at 274K miles and no unscheduled repairs. It has no trade in value so they will keep it for a beater. His wife wants a premium crossover with that kind of quality/reliability so they are seriously considering Lexus NX. These are not car enthusiasts like many of us, but they use common sense and don't look back at what parents owned or past car buying habits. The regular car buyers I know today are well informed and quite careful with new car purchases (as they should be, it's a lot of money).

 

[mmcartalk]

Today I talked to my very close relative with Camry Hybrid at 274K miles and no unscheduled repairs. It has no trade in value so they will keep it for a beater.

With good care and maintenance, it's common for both Accords and Camrys to go 200-300K miles. Even the Camrys with the notorious 3.0 V6 oil-sludge/gel problem would often go that far if you kept the oil changed.

 

[mikeavelli]

I just realized this Accord refresh has an Acura beak and Acura spider eye dizzying LED headlights on the Touring.

I've driven both engine versions of the tlx and Shawd and it's very underwhelming unfortunately. This Accord just makes that car seem just more redundant and why sales haven't been great for the tlx (better than the last gen TL but no match for the 3rd gen)

 

[IS-SV]

With good care and maintenance, it's common for both Accords and Camrys to go 200-300K miles. Even the Camrys with the notorious 3.0 V6 oil-sludge/gel problem would often go that far if you kept the oil changed.

Yes that's very common knowledge today, that why I decided to share a recent story based on close relative's actual long term experience. Their Camry wasn't especially well cared for, other than oil changes by the book. Also I found it interesting that they put a Lexus (NX) at top of shopping list partially based on Camry reliability. Experience with a Toyota influenced their upgrade path to Lexus, a lot of major automakers would love that scenario.

 

[mmcartalk]

I just realized this Accord refresh has an Acura beak and Acura spider eye dizzying LED headlights on the Touring.

I would't call it an Acura parrot-beak per se, but, yes, the heavy chrome bar at the top of the grille does give some of that effect.

I've driven both engine versions of the tlx and Shawd and it's very underwhelming unfortunately. This Accord just makes that car seem just more redundant and why sales haven't been great for the tlx (better than the last gen TL but no match for the 3rd gen)

You would agree, wouldn't you, that the last-generation's TL's exterior looks is basically what worked against it? I thought that both the front and rear ends were a joke.