Toyota Yaris Master Thread (Sedan & Hatch Discontinued for USA)

maiaramdan

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From my view, and from what I know, I think it will be consolidated to only one Yaris
As you just said Syrian, Lebanese & Libyan Yaris was not the euro XP130 as the other Mediterranean but it was the XP150, and even though all Mediterranean now will get the small TNGA-B Yaris, if that's a clue, so it will have the same fate of the small family TNGA-C Corolla and the mid. TNGA-K camry
 

ssun30

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Yaris hybrid is quite fast with just 114hp. It beats the Crown hybrid 2.5!
Surprisingly it's a bit slower than the less powerful 109hp Fit hybrid. But it does have insane fuel economy (27 km/L WLTP) that's 25% better than the Fit hybrid (22.2km/L WLTP).
 

Ian Schmidt

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27 km/L (~63.5 MPG) for a passenger car is really, really good.
 

ssun30

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I originally thought the Fit e:HEV uses the i-MMD PSD on their bigger hybrid vehicles. But it actually uses a serial two-motor configuration.

There is of course the EV mode. MG2 is very powerful at 80kW and 253N.m. Battery specs are unknown.
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In HV mode, the car is actually a serial-hybrid. There is only the electric pathway, no power flow between ICE and the wheel. As a result, MG1 needs to be sized to be the same as MG2. The ICE is a 1.5L LEB with 72kW and 127N.m.
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At high speed, a clutch engages that connects the ICE to the wheels. Power flow is fully mechanical via a direct-drive transmission. Note MG2 could not provide electric boost for some reason. Therefore it cannot operate in parallel mode, unlike last gen Fit HEV which is full parallel.
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Honda's approach has three benefits: it allows full decoupling of engine/wheel speed AND engine/wheel power in HV mode; PSD allows full coupling within a certain operating window (which can be expanded by a multi-stage device). At high speed the power flow is fully mechanical through a low-loss direct drive transmission; PSD has historically suffered from high loss in the electric pathway on the highway. Lastly, it's more compact than PSD since everything is direct drive.

But somehow the Fit e:HEV is 20% less efficient than the Yaris hybrid. Maybe it's just Honda not having as efficient components and worse energy management as Toyota. One problem with a full serial configuration is MG sizing: they are as big as the motor in the UX250h (80kW/202N.m). On the plus side, the Fit is ~10% faster with slightly less power thanks to the very torquey motor.

One problem I find with the M15A is: why does it lose so much specific output compared to its Inline-4 brothers? The M15A-FKS has only 59kW/L compared to M20A's 65kW/L. The FXE makes 45kW/L compared to M20A's 53kW/L. That's over 10% lower at the same rpm.
 

Sulu

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I originally thought the Fit e:HEV uses the i-MMD PSD on their bigger hybrid vehicles. But it actually uses a serial two-motor configuration.

There is of course the EV mode. MG2 is very powerful at 80kW and 253N.m. Battery specs are unknown.
View attachment 3950

In HV mode, the car is actually a serial-hybrid. There is only the electric pathway, no power flow between ICE and the wheel. As a result, MG1 needs to be sized to be the same as MG2. The ICE is a 1.5L LEB with 72kW and 127N.m.
View attachment 3951

At high speed, a clutch engages that connects the ICE to the wheels. Power flow is fully mechanical via a direct-drive transmission. Note MG2 could not provide electric boost for some reason. Therefore it cannot operate in parallel mode, unlike last gen Fit HEV which is full parallel.
View attachment 3952

Honda's approach has three benefits: it allows full decoupling of engine/wheel speed AND engine/wheel power in HV mode; PSD allows full coupling within a certain operating window (which can be expanded by a multi-stage device). At high speed the power flow is fully mechanical through a low-loss direct drive transmission; PSD has historically suffered from high loss in the electric pathway on the highway. Lastly, it's more compact than PSD since everything is direct drive.

But somehow the Fit e:HEV is 20% less efficient than the Yaris hybrid. Maybe it's just Honda not having as efficient components and worse energy management as Toyota. One problem with a full serial configuration is MG sizing: they are as big as the motor in the UX250h (80kW/202N.m). On the plus side, the Fit is ~10% faster with slightly less power thanks to the very torquey motor.

One problem I find with the M15A is: why does it lose so much specific output compared to its Inline-4 brothers? The M15A-FKS has only 59kW/L compared to M20A's 65kW/L. The FXE makes 45kW/L compared to M20A's 53kW/L. That's over 10% lower at the same rpm.
I suspect that the lesser efficiency of the Fit e:HEV compared to the Yaris Hybrid is due to the direct mechanical drive at "highway" speeds. Without the eCVT, the engine speed is proportional to the vehicle speed -- the higher the speed of the car, the higher the rpm of the engine and the greater fuel consumption.

Despite the parallel hybrid drive nature of the i-MMD, it also has a direct mechanical drive (direct mechanical coupling of engine to drive wheels) at "highway" speeds. As a result, fuel efficiency of modern Honda hybrids suffers at highway speeds.
 

spwolf

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Thanks for that information. I had assumed that all those markets sold the newer but less sophisticated "Third World" (XP150) Yaris, as opposed to the outgoing XP130 "Euro-Japanese" Yaris/Vitz. Boy, was I wrong! The majority of those markets sell the "Euro-Japanese" XP130, so it stands to reason they'll start selling the new TNGA-B (XP210) Yaris in due course. The exceptions could be Libya, Lebanon and Syria, which currently sell the XP150 "Third World" Yaris sold in Asia (outside Japan) and Latin America as opposed to the "Euro-Japanese" XP130.

XP150 Yaris launched just over 2 years after XP130, so I'm very curious to see if the world (outside North America if it persists with its "Yaris as rebadged Mazda2" strategy) will eventually coalesce around a single TNGA-B Yaris (much as under TNGA, myriad Camrys and Corollas were eventually consolidated) or if the diverse Yaris models for different global regions strategy will continue.
it will definitely be interesting, but i expect new Yaris to be even more expensive than before, which would then lead to reason for XP150's successor to exist.

At the same time, if they managed the sell TNGA Corolla worldwide, they could do the same with Yaris as well.
 

ssun30

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I suspect that the lesser efficiency of the Fit e:HEV compared to the Yaris Hybrid is due to the direct mechanical drive at "highway" speeds. Without the eCVT, the engine speed is proportional to the vehicle speed -- the higher the speed of the car, the higher the rpm of the engine and the greater fuel consumption.
That's not true. Naturally aspirated ICEs are most efficient at medium rpm say 2500-3500rpm. The Fit hybrid is not designed for driving really fast (its intended markets have speed limits of ~100km/h). So if they choose the final drive ratio to make the 'highway mode' be 2500rpm at 100km/h then the ICE will be operating at its optimal point.

I will provide a TL;DR version of the following paragraphs: THS is not necessarily more efficient than i-MMD, since THS is designed with more compromise to fit Toyota's overall philosophy, while i-MMD is a more optimized piece of engineering. (This seems to be a theme for anything Toyota makes, which is why enthusiasts rarely get excited by their products)

I actually got confirmation from Wenchuan Zhang, program manager of the ChDM Corolla/Camry Hybrid powertrain development program. He spoke highly of i-MMD and conceded that it's both more efficient and smoother than THS in combined urban/highway cycle. At speeds higher than 100km/h the direct drive system is considerably more efficient than THS which has the MG1 overspeeding problem, and in city driving the serial hybrid configuration provides better smoothness. The Honda system also has better performance assuming ICE and MG sizing are the same. In particular he showed real-world statistics from thousands of owners of the Accord hybrid and Camry hybrid, which shows the Accord is slightly more fuel efficient.
*Note the ChDM Camry hybrid only comes with the NiMH battery pack which is 15% less efficient than the USDM Camry hybrid LE with Li-ion pack. I will have to check with him on why there is such a big gap between the two.

What THS does offer over i-MMD is consistency in any condition, which Toyota values very heavily in all their products. In particular at low temperatures and low battery SOC when pure electric driving becomes increasingly less efficient. And in many scenarios i-MMD may struggle with SOC management and thus lose its efficiency and smoothness advantage. THS also could operate with either a broken engine or a broken electric motor, i-MMD does not have that redundancy.

He also mentioned that THS's disadvantage is magnified by its battery deficiency. The batteries and motors in THS are downsized for historical reasons: early generations of Prius did not have access to high power density batteries and motors (especially during the 2010 rare earth embargo by China), therefore the philosophy of downsizing is kept until today. He did mention that THS could close the gap considerably by using up-to-date battery tech. Many problems with THS is basically solved by going Prime: give it a PHV-sized battery.
*Note this is the case in the Fit vs. Yaris comparison. Here the Yaris gets the latest Li-ion pack which would provide a considerable efficiency boost over a hypothetical Yaris hybrid using NiMH pack. Also if we compare USDM Camry hybrid Li-ion with Accord hybrid Li-ion the former is more efficient.

Here I need to correct myself: all Honda i-MMD systems are like the Fit e:HEV with three modes, namely EV drive, serial HV drive, and mechanical direct drive. I was just confused that Honda's choice of words make it sounds like the Fit uses a new i-MMD system.
 
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spwolf

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I actually got confirmation from Wenchuan Zhang, program manager of the ChDM Corolla/Camry Hybrid powertrain development program. He spoke highly of i-MMD and conceded that it's both more efficient and smoother than THS in combined urban/highway cycle. At speeds higher than 100km/h the direct drive system is considerably more efficient than THS which has the MG1 overspeeding problem, and in city driving the serial hybrid configuration provides better smoothness. The Honda system also has better performance assuming ICE and MG sizing are the same. In particular he showed real-world statistics from thousands of owners of the Accord hybrid and Camry hybrid, which shows the Accord is slightly more fuel efficient.
*Note the ChDM Camry hybrid only comes with the NiMH battery pack which is 15% less efficient than the USDM Camry hybrid LE with Li-ion pack. I will have to check with him on why there is such a big gap between the two.
I have to admit I dont understand this part - for Toyota's that have both lion and nimh packs, nobody could ever discern any difference in fuel consumption, and it would be easy to do since for Prius (if I remember right), they have both in US market, depending on equipment grade. So they end up being the same. Of course Toyota sizes these packs differently.

So if new Yaris is 20% more efficient than new Fit's, then HSD setup is 20% more efficient. Both are brand new systems, right?

Same goes for new CRV vs Rav4, Rav4 is more fuel efficient and faster at the same time (real life test, not just EPA).

I am very glad Honda is putting their system in many more cars, and I cant wait for Nissan to bring in e-power to Europe and USA as well.

Edit: this is my old response that i never hit enter on.

Now i see new article about group test and how crazy good real life consumption of Yaris is.

Left new Yaris, right new Fit. Urban, High Speed, Suburban tests by best car.

4000
 

ssun30

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I have to admit I dont understand this part - for Toyota's that have both lion and nimh packs, nobody could ever discern any difference in fuel consumption, and it would be easy to do since for Prius (if I remember right), they have both in US market, depending on equipment grade. So they end up being the same. Of course Toyota sizes these packs differently.
I too don't understand how Fit is underperforming so much in both WLTC and real world tests. Note: the WLTC cycle used in Japan is a modification of real WLTP, the difference is a lower V_max in the highway test section since most highway in Japan are limited to 80km/h. Supposedly this should make Fit achieve a better % of WLTC in 'global' WLTP tests, however the Fit Hybrid has failed to demonstrate the advantage of iMMD especially on the highway.

Here is a collection of real world fuel economy reported by owners on a chinese fuel economy tracking software. User-reported fuel economy is not nearly as credible as controlled tests, but it's well established among owners that the Accord hybrid and Camry hybrid are evenly matched in average long term fuel economy (both in the 5.2-5.3 L/100km range), with the former being slightly smoother.
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After an incredible early period staying below 4.0L/100km, my ES300h is stabilizing at 4.7L/100km, but that's just from my driving style (about 20% more efficient than 'average owner').
 

spwolf

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On Fuelly, Camry and Accord are also matched about the same, it could be due to other factors but the powertrain, like for Yaris, Toyota head engineer told BestCar that it was not a single thing, but many things optimized that make it much more efficient that before - ie there is no silver bullet.

50 MPG for ES300h sounds crazy good really.
 

spwolf

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@ssun30 bestcar also had comparo between the Fit and Yaris, and Yaris is not only better handler and drivers car, it also feels faster. They mentioned that hybrid is now satisfactory fast and feels good (unlike before).

Fit was bigger and had comfier suspension but Yaris was also comfy enough.
 
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Not sure for Canada, but obviously, it might be the same fate. If this is indeed true, sucks that the Yaris "hatch" only gets this one model year, but the Mazda 2 itself has been in production since 2014, so it is time.
 

super51fan

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Now on the Toyota USA website.
I am pretty sure it has been like that for a while. On that page it says "While GR Yaris isn't coming to the U.S., perhaps it's time the U.S. got a Toyota hot hatch to call its own" referring to the GR Corolla
 

Will1991

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So, finally NA will have the GR, so was that why they killed Yaris Mazda2??
I don't think so since this should be at least 2~3 times the price from the Mazda 2 derived Yaris... NA has such a cheap Corolla...

I am pretty sure it has been like that for a while. On that page it says "While GR Yaris isn't coming to the U.S., perhaps it's time the U.S. got a Toyota hot hatch to call its own" referring to the GR Corolla
Me too! I was thinking NA would be the first market to get it! Hopefully this doesn't mean GR Corolla has been cancelled.
 
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