The 4Runner was always based off the Tacoma and it will stay that way. Toyota will create its own niche for the 4Runner and will not take away sales from the other BOF products while still ensuring there is a diverse product range.
This is not true. The 4Runner has shared a platform with the Land Cruiser Prado since 1995. Many of the powertrains have been interchangeable between Toyota's compact and midsize BOF products, but the platforms are different and the 4Runner has never been based on the Tacoma. It will most likely again share the same platform with the Land Cruiser Prado, and thus, the GX and US Land Cruiser.
I think Paul Williamsen said it best when he said all TNGA platform engineering is "More of a formula than a set blueprint." With that in mind, while there will be different wheelbases, sizes and powertrains for everything from Sequoia to LX to 4Runner to Tacoma to Tundra, they are certainly all related .
So far...
GA-F "full size truck": 145.7 to 164.6" wheelbase (Tundra)
GA-F "full size SUV": 122" wheelbase (Sequoia)
GA-F "midsize truck": not released (Tacoma)
GA-F "midsize/large SUVs": 112.2" wheelbase (Land Cruiser 300, Lexus LX, Lexus GX, Toyota Land Cruiser Prado, Toyota US-spec Land Cruiser, probably 4Runner)
I assume Hilux and Fortuner will make their ways to GA-F soon, so we can see if those end up being the smaller sizes to round out the BOF lineup.
This is not true. The 4Runner has shared a platform with the Land Cruiser Prado since 1995. Many of the powertrains have been interchangeable between Toyota's compact and midsize BOF products, but the platforms are different and the 4Runner has never been based on the Tacoma. It will most likely again share the same platform with the Land Cruiser Prado, and thus, the GX and US Land Cruiser.
You're correct, however you're forgetting that the Tacoma largely used elements off the Prado/Hilux as well. Once they split between Tacoma and Hilux approximately 2 decades ago, you see a greater resemblance between 4Runner and Tacoma than the 4Runner and LC Prado.
My point is that they will find a way to create further differentiation and the only logical way is to add a third row (or a box) over the Tacoma's bed.
The main problem is killing the 4Runner name is not an option. Its heritage in NA is just as strong if not stronger than the Land Cruiser.
Another problem is the Sequoia. The name really shouldn't exist as it never sold well and it occupies the segment Land Cruiser should really be in. It would be better if Toyota designed the Sequoia as a LWB "Land Cruiser Max" international model, and base the LX on that.
History and legacy is how Toyota got such a messy yet successful BOF lineup today. With the exception of Tacoma and Hilux, none of their BOF offerings are truly optimal for their role, but they don't have a choice since their very diverse customer base want them to be that way.
My expectation is as long as it offers the same hybrid system and power supply capability as the Tacoma Trailhunter, I will take it over a Bronco. Having that 2.4kW outlet makes overlanding builds so much more convenient.
if the 4Runner doesn't get too big and stays around the same size as the current version, I think it will have a place in the lineup and should still maintain lots of current 4R owners.
You have to remember the new GX/US LC are pretty much almost the same size as the LC300, that is actually too big for some 4R owners and even some current GX/Prado owners.
You have so many BoF options from Toyota now, its great.
In 10-15 years, how many of them will remain or what will happen? That will be interesting to see.
4Runner has the same wheelbase as Prado/previous GX. If the new GX, which should be the same as the new Prado has the LC300/new LX wheelbase, I expect the new 4Runner to get the same 2850 mm wheelbase. Now the only open question is about the Fortuner, which was shorter than the Prado.
I'm very, very exhausted at this point. I'm puzzled at how anyone central to Toyota, would be earnestly telling me this is a Bronco rival. Well, I own 3 Broncos, one of which is my classic '74 Max Lider restomod in my profile avatar and two modern U725s.
I hate, hate overhyped insight that throws me off track and ruins a good record of earnest accuracy on my part. From 2021 to April 2023, I expected a reskinned GX. I was fine with that, provided I had the right info. Only to be given a confusing impression, that instead referred to FJ40, Bronco and Wrangler all of a sudden, this past spring. So, I had to change course (once again). @Gecko, what do you remember first hearing back in 2019 specific to your own recollection, regarding the Land Cruiser future? That was straight to the point, no funny business. Gecko said it simple to, while Toyota (recently) and Toyota (unofficially as incognito) have not.
When Gecko shared with me, new information about the Land Cruiser per Toyota USA in October 2019, I had been laser-focused on solely 300-Series development and not too concerned about Prado development, in knowing it wouldn't be ready until at least Fall 2022 back then, after the 2nd major GX 460 update for 2020.
As far as I knew, Jonny Lieberman from Motor Trend had called Lexus "unprofitable" and that the Land Cruiser would die "after 2022 MY". He got the context wrong and it was actually 2021 MY being the last year for it. However, he was my first clue to knowing the nameplate was going on hiatus after 200.
Until Gecko shared when he knew with me 8 weeks later, I was puzzled at Lieberman's lopsided claim. Reason was, I knew 300 and 310 Series production to commence in 2021, so why would Toyota keep 200 in production through 2022 for USA? Well, they didn't and I was right. Some media expected 300 in late 2020, but @UZJ100GXR insisted on that being false in January 2020 and I wisely trusted him. Lieberman was partly wrong on the front (died after MY 2022), because 200-Series ended production in March 2021. Only thing he got right, was discontinuation of the nameplate overall. This is why I fight with them very often...context.
I also then saw in depth launch timetable for both Jan 2020-December 31, 2022 and another (deleted, seen via cached browser) for CY 2023 alone. This further confirmed everything. Although Land Cruiser wasn't listed, I knew it was likely under "Midsize SUV" on the 2023 slide and a 2024 model.
Mad at some misinformation out there and lack of tangible discussion, I tried to shut up some detractors elsewhere using the media in February 2020, to force Toyota to confirm/deny. That eventually backfired, when other media lazily mixed it up with the 300-Series instead and took it out of context. This killed the public credibility of any Land Cruiser future in USA, when the 300 never came here and people just assumed the insight was vaporware.
When I learned about the GX 550 from a Lexus insider in September 2021, who I briefly communicated with following "GX 550" being trademarked, I became skeptical of the Land Cruiser future (for cannibalization concerns) and then realized via some other discussion from a Toyota source, this Toyota-badged vehicle was still coming regardless of the new GX and that I better not dismiss those expectations. However, some things just didn't make sense. I listed it for production anyway.
It became much clearer in early-mid 2022 that GX hadn't replaced this off-road focused Land Cruiser, when one or two more individuals made a random mention and began to discuss this vehicle (Land Cruiser) too and doing so very independent of anyone on here or other places I regularly frequented. When that happens, it means the information is fresh and not simply bouncing back in my direction. It can be frustrating to rely on further confirmation of intel, only to find the source of it is you anyway.
I don't favor relying on information that comes from existing online contacts of mine, if it's simply because they're drawing from the same information pool and not their own separate conversations I'm not part of. It's circular insight at that point and useless, when trying to further verify new developments. Only one company I have access to firsthand insight (my job) and I of course, won't share it for legal reasons of my own nowadays. (Ask me about one future BEV pickup with a blue badge in front, I'm not going to acknowledge the question, sorry.)
Anyways, it was just under 1 year ago, Toyota USA began to start showing this vehicle to their dealers in USA and Canada. Several more accounts in the dealer body confirming its existence, finally backed up Gecko's insight and the Toyota model launches chart I created in September 2021 for others' public info source in different online spaces.
Again remembering the yet-to-be-revealed GX and it's alleged retro-boxiness, I deduced in early 2023 it was perhaps:
Toyota was either diverging the new GX from the next Prado or all those heavily J150-based renderings of the new TNGA Prado (below), were shoddily done and dead wrong. Curious, I was checking around all possible sources, while mostly focused on things 2024 Tacoma.
When a new Toyota NA HQ source reached out to me early this year, I was very thankful and then later briefed on a launch delay update to late March 2024.
Japanese media for some reason kept referring to the FJ Cruiser/FJ40 and I grew more and more skeptical. @UZJ100GXR helpfully pointed me in that direction and I couldn't make sense of it, from the poor Prado renderings you can see below nor the overly enthusiastic mentions of the FJ40.
I kept trying to understand from the Toyota HQ source, why he kept mentioning the Prado, even though many renderings of the Prado (as you can see) looked nothing like the upcoming J70-like boxy GX and too much like the old GX. The artists were actually struggling to translate the details, because you can see how the taillights are correct from the Compact Cruiser BEV.
Once I brought the 6G 4Runner into that conversation, things took a very different turn with the answers I got... FJ Cruiser and Bronco came up in terms of Land Cruiser instead, as a means to differentiate. I was shocked at the mention of Bronco in relation to this Land Cruiser and then I felt the 4Runner vs LC cannibalization concerns were no longer an issue.
I saw that Toyota was using the new Land Cruiser as an FJ replacement, while 4Runner remained "true to form" with sharper styling. Exactly as Gecko had first made known to me about the 4Runner in 2019. Evolutionary as I expected.Please bear in mind, that the actual design is much sharper and aggressive like the 2024 Tacoma.
He'd said the same for the future Sequoia in 2019 and the mission statement was accurate, from observing the new XK80. It was shown as a sketch according to Gecko back then. It's all new and nothing carried over, but the template of a Tundra SUV was strongly adhered to. The 4Runner has been delayed since then, but the final styling wasn't changed from 2023 MY plans. It's related to the new Tacoma, but still different from both Hilux and Fortuner. Those two, are separate from USA products once again, but on the same architecture this time. This is based on my sources, not my own firsthand insight. I have to trust that they're 100% right about that and looking at this today...
I'm very disappointed to see, that the Land Cruiser vehicle in question is none other than the next GX in Toyota skin and not a Bronco competitor of any sort to me, that truly says SWB FJ40+J70.
I was just fine with a reskinned GX as the Land Cruiser, but I'm not happy about being encouraged to share information that can be read as false to the next person, when they look at that new Prado and angrily don't see a retro "Bronco competitor". I briefly expected, the past 6-8 weeks, a retro 240-Series sub-model that didn't share the same body as the Prado, but a more retro interpretation on GA-F that differed from the GX and Prado 250.
It's very disappointing to discover, as it's a likely cynical marketing exercise that will piss off loudmouths. It might be "hardcore", but no it is not a Bronco rival from this angle. Calling it that doesn't make it so.
I'm not going to comment on these vehicles anymore (from information-sharing capacity), if even official sources (Toyota personnel) keep giving me conflicting info and then (some) hide their hands, when it's proven to be wrong or embellished.
Pattern wise, I didn't like being told by an arrogant Lexus USA employee, that the Tacoma had a 10AT and obviously it didn't. Him argumentatively insisting a full-fledged Camry prototype was "a mule" (hodgepodge vehicle it wasn't). Didn't like a number of these insiders trying to claim manual was dead in TNGA Tacoma early on. Didn't like being told 2TR-FE I4 and GR V6 would remain in Tacoma and making me feel stupid for questioning it. Blew up in my face later on. Didn't like the FALSE insistence that the GR engine would last be used in the IS 350, when the new 2024 TX 550h+ has a GR engine! I could even point to BS like "world beater" Tundra and some others.
I've never done this with my own firsthand insight and I answered only what I knew to be true for a fact at JLR or Ford, so I wish others just wouldn't do that. The GX is a great vehicle, but how well is this Toyota differentiated from it, when the all-new 4Runner TRD PRO also exists for MY 2025?
Why even bring FJ40 into the picture as a reference, if this is just a copy and paste job and not at least a different body on TNGA-F? The redundant Venza is a Harrier and the GA-K Crown is a cynical joke, outside of the GA-L sedan. Why couldn't they have at least made this alleged submodel, 25-30% or more different from the new Prado 250? This is at best 10% different from new Prado and maybe 20% different from the GX.
The GX 550 is a great vehicle and makes sense against the Defender 110, this doesn't against a Bronco. New Prado is great offering for those who don't get the Lexus brand, but retro FJ40 wagon it is not. I hope it works for them.
I feel bad for getting anyone's hopes up from information shared to me lately, because it just looks like I pull things out of my ass and cannot be trusted to get it right, if the impression I'm being given is something greater than it is to the next person. I'm happy to see the Land Cruiser nameplate return, but I strongly retract any claims I made of Bronco as a rival. This is not only too big for that most likely, it's not going be on the radar of such buyers who could've swallowed the lack of removable doors/roof, but not the size.
I state this as someone who loves the GX and respects the new Prado, but I don't need the FJ40 references in the marketing if the FJ Cruiser is ironically much closer to the actual FJ40 vehicle than this. They should've just focused on bringing it back the nameplate and made no mention to something it isn't. Since March 16th, they've been teasing FJ40 related subject matter, but a simple mention of the nameplate's return would've sufficed alone instead. I hope to see better at reveal, than what I can observe now.
One difference I see between this photo and the GX photos is the LC doesn't appear to have any roof rails. I find that interesting for an off road focused SUV.
Off topic question: Is HQ Confidential still happening?
No, it's done for. One rather arrogant and aloof former Toyota product planner on the '16 Tacoma, snidely corrected me back in early May, that it was not happening this year, on the other Lexus forum. (I was of course diplomatic and thankful, but I know what's going on and not blind to his shadiness and attempts to make me look bad. He can think whatever he wants to think TBH, but I can't concern myself with any unwarranted hostile BS.) Anyway, the HQ Conf. was usually held around June 1, but that was due to COVID apparently. They continued it for 2022, but not this year.
Am I the only one here who is not worried whatsoever and am thrilled that Toyota is sinking capital into off-road enthusiast products that will last forever?
Just me?
This forum, despite how smart we all can be, likes to create a lot of artificial scenarios and cause panic. The 4Runner was always based off the Tacoma and it will stay that way. Toyota will create its own niche for the 4Runner and will not take away sales from the other BOF products while still ensuring there is a diverse product range. The GX and LC Prado always were excellent products and there is demand for a lower-market, and an upper-market genuine BOF SUV and it reflects in the LX and the LC as well. These cars can coexist among each other. What it will do is just make Toyota's market share larger, taking away sales from the Americans.
Given how this new interest in off-roading isn't just a fad and looks to be permanent, Toyota is being smart in offering a whole host of BOF offerings and securing the market, rather than being reactive to market tastes.
This is not true. The 4Runner has shared a platform with the Land Cruiser Prado since 1995. Many of the powertrains have been interchangeable between Toyota's compact and midsize BOF products, but the platforms are different and the 4Runner has never been based on the Tacoma. It will most likely again share the same platform with the Land Cruiser Prado, and thus, the GX and US Land Cruiser.
I'm sorry to say, although I've learned a lot from you about the 4th/5th gen 4Runners and the existence of the new Land Cruiser in the first place, that is not correct. F1 is, because I've seen various accounts going back to 1995, strongly connecting the Tacoma and 4Runner.
Reviewing development of the N180 4Runner, from 1991 to 1995 and its January 1992 to 1993 design process, they even waited until exterior designer Kevin Hunter at CALTY (now head of CALTY at age 63), had his final 1995 Tacoma clay mockup approved for production in November 1991, to proceed with 4Runner design work the following January of 1992. I can how the 1992 MY Hilux/Pickup refresh (T emblem replaced T O Y O T A) intro in late 1991 paralleled the design sign-off of the successor (Tacoma), which is typically what happens behind closed doors when you see a midlife facelift appear.
I can provide context to that later, but that is just the truth from the chief engineer of the 1996 4Runner/Hilux Surf in a 1995 interview and included associated N180 styling proposals put forward (I have more).
This in example, is a 1992 mockup for the 1996 4Runner. I will discuss 3rd Gen 4Runner development at another time hopefully.
The Tacoma has been connected to the Prado since its inception in 1996. This was noted in a magazine circa 2005, I will later provide a link to, in an interview with chief engineer of the 2005 Tacoma. The Tacoma is essentially a Prado pickup, with C-Channel frame section instead of fully boxed. They're now closer than ever today on TNGA-F, since all are now fully boxed.
The Hilux differs from it, by being on a downmarket IMV basis. The Tacoma is "fancier" by definition for that reason than the Hilux, as it uses a premium body on frame architecture with 150-Series (previously 120) as its basis. So, we are both essentially driving a "GX 350" pickup LOL.
I am happy this vehicle is coming, but I am not happy at what I've been told in secret and feeling it was overhyped in recent months. Gecko didn't blindly suggest a convertible FJ40 throwback, but my Toyota source wanted me to believe this was recognizant of a hardtop-only Bronco Heritage Edition or Badlands? Nope, that's only why I am mad, because I've been trusted and let some people down with hype. And it's not even my source's fault either, when Toyota's official stance is such LOL. Oh dear...
You're correct, however you're forgetting that the Tacoma largely used elements off the Prado/Hilux as well. Once they split between Tacoma and Hilux approximately 2 decades ago, you see a greater resemblance between 4Runner and Tacoma than the 4Runner and LC Prado.
My point is that they will find a way to create further differentiation and the only logical way is to add a third row (or a box) over the Tacoma's bed.
I think Paul Williamsen said it best when he said all TNGA platform engineering is "More of a formula than a set blueprint." With that in mind, while there will be different wheelbases, sizes and powertrains for everything from Sequoia to LX to 4Runner to Tacoma to Tundra, they are certainly all related .
b
GA-F "full size truck": 145.7 to 164.6" wheelbase (Tundra)
GA-F "full size SUV": 122" wheelbase (Sequoia)
GA-F "midsize truck": not released (Tacoma)
GA-F "midsize/large SUVs": 112.2" wheelbase (Land Cruiser 300, Lexus LX, Lexus GX, Toyota Land Cruiser Prado, Toyota US-spec Land Cruiser, probably 4Runner)
I assume Hilux and Fortuner will make their ways to GA-F soon, so we can see if those end up being the smaller sizes to round out the BOF lineup.
I've learned more about those two in Hilux and Fortuner from a source, but I'll need time later to address them in a separate thread. They are well differentiated from Tacoma and 4Runner, will not be rebadges a la Harrier/Venza.
You're correct, however you're forgetting that the Tacoma largely used elements off the Prado/Hilux as well. Once they split between Tacoma and Hilux approximately 2 decades ago, you see a greater resemblance between 4Runner and Tacoma than the 4Runner and LC Prado.
My point is that they will find a way to create further differentiation and the only logical way is to add a third row (or a box) over the Tacoma's bed.
4Runner rides on a full ladder-type truck frame, rigid and strong, but aside from a few suspension bits and its powertrain, it doesn't share many components from its pickup stablemate, the Tacoma. The underpinnings have been created specifically for the 4Runner. The front suspension is all new, using a double wishbone configuration, but instead of relying on torsion bars like the old model, 4Runner is now supported by coil springs which absorb bumps better. The rear suspension, while still using an archaic truck-type solid rear axle, is also supported by coil springs. Both front and rear suspension travel has been increased, but its climb-aboard height is now lower. Its steering is different as well. Instead of the old recirculating-ball type steering assembly, a rack-and-pinion design is utilized, which is more precise and stable, and more responsive as well. On all but base model 4Runners, an anti-lock braking system (ABS) is standard equipment, and optional on four cylinder versions. https://www.theautochannel.com/vehicles/new/reviews/solo9609.html
On sale in March 1996, 4Runner shared powertrains and some chassis elements with the Tacoma pickup, but styling, wheelbase, rear suspension, and interior design differed. Dual airbags were standard, along with 4-wheel antilock brakes and side-impact door beams. Wheelbase was two inches longer, door width grew by 1.5 inches, rear leg room was up three inches, and the floor was lowered by 2.4 inches. A new one-piece rear liftgate replaced the former 2-piece tailgate, with a standard power window. The 4-door wagon came with 2- or 4-wheel drive in base, sportier SR5, and luxury 4WD Limited trim. Base engine was a 2.7-liter 4-cylinder. Standard in the Limited and optional in others was a 183-horsepower, 3.4-liter V6. A 5-speed manual gearbox was standard, 4-speed automatic optional (standard on Limited). All 4x4s except the Limited used a part-time 4WDemand system. Only Limiteds got Toyota’s electronic One-Touch Hi-4 system, with a handy button on the transfer-case lever to shift between 2WD and 4WD High range. https://consumerguide.com/used/1996-02-toyota-4runner/
Unlike previous versions, the new 4Runner shares no exterior sheet metal with Toyota's compact pickup line, and not much at the chassis level, either. There is, however, a strong family resemblance from the grille to the windshield. For that matter, the new 4Runner doesn't look significantly different from last year's version, a deliberate choice by Toyota designers, who wanted to preserve the previous edition's rugged good looks. In our view, at least, they've done an excellent job. https://www.newcartestdrive.com/reviews/1996-toyota-4runner/
Aside from the chief engineer Hideo Kondo on his work from 1991 to 1995 on N180, the media accounts seem to be different from the 1990s and match Gecko's claim.
This seems to change with the 2005 Tacoma:
For years, nothing. Then, suddenly, the compact-pickup-truck market is awash in new products: the 2004 Chevrolet Colorado and GMC Canyon and, for 2005, a new Dodge Dakota, Nissan Frontier, and--for the first time in 10 years--an all-new Toyota Tacoma.As it did originally, the Tacoma shares a platform and an engine with the Toyota 4Runner, in this case the gutsy 4.0-liter, 245-horsepower, aluminum-block DOHC V-6. Standard is a new 2.7-liter, 164-horsepower four-cylinder, which replaces the current 2.4- and 2.7-liter fours. There are four transmission choices: a four-speed automatic and a five-speed manual for the four-cylinder, and a five-speed auto and a six-speed manual for the V-6. The manuals and the five-speed automatic are new. - Motor Trend; September 2004
We were surprised to learn that the '05 Tacoma shares the same platform with the Lexus GX 470 and Toyota 4Runner. The frame is fully boxed up front, while the middle and rear are an open C-channel design. Couple this stiff chassis with the impressive V-6, and the Tacoma can willingly pull up to 6,500 pounds. Stopping this much mass, however, should be assisted by trailer brakes, as we can attest after towing our project TJ several hundred miles with the Tacoma. - Motor Trend; October 2005
It will be interesting to see what the Land Cruiser ends up being priced at. There isn’t a whole lot of price gap between the 4Runner and GX. I suspect we will see pricing something like this:
4Runner: $40-$55k
Land Cruiser: $52k-$65k
GX: $65k-$80k
Aside from the chief engineer Hideo Kondo on his work from 1991 to 1995 on N180, the media accounts seem to be different from the 1990s and match Gecko's claim.
Not creating a true Wrangler/Bronco competitor is a huge missed opportunity by Toyota. I think Toyota’s marketing was very misleading with all the 40 series throwback photos, and that’s not your fault Carmaker. I appreciate all the input you’ve provided.
It will be interesting to see what the Land Cruiser ends up being priced at. There isn’t a whole lot of price gap between the 4Runner and GX. I suspect we will see pricing something like this:
4Runner: $40-$55k
Land Cruiser: $52k-$65k
GX: $65k-$80k
Not creating a true Wrangler/Bronco competitor is a huge missed opportunity by Toyota. I think Toyota’s marketing was very misleading with all the 40 series throwback photos, and that’s not your fault Carmaker. I appreciate all the input you’ve provided.
Appreciate it, thanks. I've had to backtrack on my fury and remember both inside sources and myself, are only going off what Global HQ and Plano HQ marketing/PP heads set out to have done with this vehicle. I can't fault anyone else otherwise, including myself. I've studied public perception and the jokes flying around, plus ignorant comparisons to Bronco and etc, tell me Toyota will be alright. It's seen as a Bronco competitor, regardless. No worries to be had.
GX with a litany of accessories and every option ticked, should be closer $90k loaded. Without gear, but only general packaging and options, maybe a little above $80k. It will base around $65-70k indeed, but definitely not $80k loaded. 4Runner will be more expensive than that, unlike what I thought. Expect overlap. Land Cruiser does come in loaded, allegedly $20k less than previous model.
I never expected a topless Land Cruiser, but a fixed top example? Well, maybe this is close enough if the public believes it. Something just seems awfully cynical about this, if this isn't better than the TRD Pro offerings in capability. It should be the halo 4x4 of the whole Toyota lineup in North America, meaning representative of being the absolute best.
It can’t happen if the US Landcruiser is a Prado. The largest markets Middle East, South East Asia and Australia have both the real Landcruiser and the Landcruiser Prado.
Anyway, I have not seen the new GX, but from what I see it is one grade lower than than LX is some aspects, which was not the case of the previous generations.
I don't think it is fair to say that the 300 is the real Land Cruiser and the 250 is not until we see what the differences are. With both being on shared platforms (TNGA-F), there's a very real possibility that the important bits that gave the LC its reputation are common between the 300 series and 250 series. Meaning the 250 would just be a smaller body on the same basic underpinnings.
That's it. Nothing else. Regardless of what you want to "think."
All Prados (since their introduction and from when they were split off from the "heavy duty" Land Cruiser lineage) have been given the "J" designation in their model code.
Ergo, from Toyota's point of view, they are considered a part of the Toyota Land Cruiser family of vehicles (regardless of how they are marketed/sold/perceived, etc.)
A sampling of the "Prado" lineage. Notice the "J" in the vehicle family model designation character location:
I don't think it is fair to say that the 300 is the real Land Cruiser and the 250 is not until we see what the differences are. With both being on shared platforms (TNGA-F), there's a very real possibility that the important bits that gave the LC its reputation are common between the 300 series and 250 series. Meaning the 250 would just be a smaller body on the same basic underpinnings.
The Prado/GX won’t have the ultimate comfort of the LC300/LX. Compared to previous gen GX, I don’t know why the new one has bare metal window frames inside, and not plastics cladded. Screens cost cutting to me.
A few things about this Land Cruiser that I think may help shape people's expectations for what will be delivered shortly...
There is no doubt that the global "deal" that was made between certain regions and Japan to bring GA-F to market had an impact on what we are seeing with GX, Land Cruiser and soon, 4Runner. TMNA had to give up their V8 dreams and also lost the Land Cruiser 300.
This happened at a time when hype around the Bronco was at an all-time high and SUV sales were continuing to skyrocket, so it's logical to assume TMNA asked, "What can we do to compete with this Bronco?" "Bronco" is one of Ford's most iconic nameplates like Land Cruiser is for Toyota, so the connection for a "Bronco fighting Land Cruiser" becomes sort of obvious even if the products will look very different. This is also where it's important to separate (employee and corporate marketing) hype from the likely business case, because even Toyota has a tendency to overhype certain products.
My assumption is that Japan probably thinks GA-F is as good as or better of a starting point than what Ford has done with the Bronco and said, "Sure, TMNA, if you want a Land Cruiser, your budget is $X," and that number probably left very few options for some sort of ground-up Bronco and Wrangler fighter. Prado/GX is a natural starting point since it is the global workhorse Land Cruiser, as well as allowing them to drop the price point by $25k, and voila -- here we are today: Prado with retro headlights, bumper, grill... LAND CRUISER! Removable doors, lift off top, etc. all require extra engineering and reinforcement, and I have a feeling that just wasn't feasible despite what TMNA wanted.
The recent (American) Land Cruiser heritage, at least since the J80, has always been a vehicle that is capable and durable, but also well built, comfortable and semi-luxurious. With that legacy, once again, basing the Land Cruiser off the new Prado makes sense. History has been similar with the 4Runner which has always been more civil, quieter, more comfortable and easier to live with than the Wrangler and also now the Bronco, so this is where the relationship between the 4Runner and the new Land Cruiser becomes a bit muddy to me.
So, despite the dreams of a 4-door FJ Cruiser ready to battle the Bronco and Wrangler, what will be delivered is quite true to recent Land Cruiser heritage and in that way, will be a perfect Land Cruiser for this era: Toyota's latest and greatest off-road technology and hardware at a lower price point that more people can afford. Through factory lifts, trims and accessory kits, I assume the Land Cruiser can be built into something with a similar level of capability as the Bronco... and Toyota probably already knows the buyers who really want that will do it, and they're building a great "base" platform for enthusiasts and normal buyers alike to enjoy. Land Cruiser TRD PRO...?
Where I begin to scratch my head is why -- and where -- this is going to be necessary between a new 4Runner and GX, but my assumption is that TMNA was more worried about cashing in on the Land Cruiser name in a hot market than filling that Bronco-ish niche. It's logical to assume the 4Runner will be based on the Prado too, with the 2.4T I4 standard and the 2.4T hybrid as an option just like the Tacoma. TRD Offroad and TRD PRO models of the 4Runner will no doubt be very capable, and the 4R overall is going to be similar to the Land Cruiser in size and stature. There will be differences in styling (modern vs. retro), equipment, luxury trimmings and powertrains that will make the 4Runner more affordable than the Land Cruiser, but the GX sits above the 4Runner obviously, creating a very narrow patch of real estate for the Land Cruiser to live on.
I don't want to say too much, but a few notes...
4Runner will have 4x2 model standard as well as base trims like SR5, so it will be priced lower than the Land Cruiser
2.4T as standard with 2.4T hybrid as optional also lowers the cost of entry on the 4Runner
Land Cruiser will be hybrid-only with the 2.4T hybrid as the core powertrain, positioning it above 4Runner
GX will have one key thing Land Cruiser won't to keep some distance (and value) between them
This is some very narrow product positioning with a lot of overlap, but I think the pieces will make sense now through the end of the year as products roll out.
In summary, if Toyota had built a 4 door vehicle with removable top, removable doors, and that prioritized off-road ability over quality and comfort, would that have maybe been the better vehicle for this market right now? Probably. But would it have been true to the Land Cruiser name and recent heritage? Not really. Land Cruiser is gonna Land Cruiser, Ford is gonna Ford, and Jeep is gonna Jeep.
They are closer to each other than they ever have been without a doubt, and mechanically this will easily be the best GX/Prado to date.
Obviously some things will be in favor of the 300 series because it is the flagship after all but that is expected.
It will be interesting to see the price/overlap in markets where they will sell both.
I know for a fact the Middle East/Rest of the world, will not be getting a V6 250 LC Prado as we have seen from the confirmed model codes on the Tech site.
Has the v6 been confirmed on the US LC?
This is some very narrow product positioning with a lot of overlap, but I think the pieces will make sense now through the end of the year as products roll out.
I assume so but am unsure with some of the delays. Shown in Q4 and on sale in Q1-Q2 2024 seems reasonable but I don't have any concrete details. Fingers crossed!
This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
.
