Toyota BZ4X

[ssun30]

So after a disastrous 199 sold in U.S. on its first month, bZ4X managed an even more disastrous first month in China, their supposedly primary market for bZ4X: 7 sold in the entire month of October. Yes there are lock downs everywhere but their regular models still managed to grow in volume.

The car was supposed to enter production August 2021 and hit the market early 2022. But it has been pushed back again and again, including the 5 month delay to address the wheels falling off problem. The launch of GAC version of the bZ4X was called off in October for unknown reasons, and FAW managed to sell just 7.

I couldn't think of any worse product launch from any company since the start of the 21st century. It's uncompetitive, it has quality problems, it is unusable, it is overpriced, dealers have no idea how to sell it, and it has heavily overexaggerated specifications. The only thing it has is a reliability promise that won't be proven until 2030. Well I guess they will deliver on that promise because most owners will be so frustrated with it and stop driving it so they will all have low miles after 10 years.

 

[arrow1982]

Range and ease of use never was high on the priority list for electric car customers anyway, or else there wouldn't be an electric car.

The bz4x doesn't sell because it is an ugly yet expensive car, has a meh-meh infotainment system and loses out on 0-60 car-comparo specs.

And Toyota isn't good at crisis comumnication. Elon would have somehow managed to convert the wheels falling of to a 20% increase in Tesla stock prices.

 

[spwolf]

Range and ease of use never was high on the priority list for electric car customers anyway, or else there wouldn't be an electric car.

The bz4x doesn't sell because it is an ugly yet expensive car, has a meh-meh infotainment system and loses out on 0-60 car-comparo specs.

And Toyota isn't good at crisis comumnication. Elon would have somehow managed to convert the wheels falling of to a 20% increase in Tesla stock prices.

Oh buyers of EVs don't care about EVs?

That is pretty funny.

Bz4x does not sell because there was 7 months sales stop due recall.

Now it will not sell because it is very bad EV.

I have not seen any reviews commenting 0-60 or bad infotainment though, just terrible ev related things like range, real life range and slow charging.

Musk for all his failings created best EV tech on the market and that is why they sell it.

Also your comments make it obvious you are not interested into EVs, hence the drive by. Or am i wrong?

 

[CRSKTN]

Musk for all his failings created best EV tech on the market and that is why they sell it.

"Best"

 

[ssun30]

"Best"

They have best EV tech and build terrible cars. These can happen at the same time.

 

[CRSKTN]

They have best EV tech and build terrible cars. These can happen at the same time.

I think there are plenty of people who bought them and ran into corner cutting and issues like chips burning out due to hardware choices, who would argue with "best".

I have more hope for Lucid than tesla at times

 

[Will1991]

This is no excuse for TMC, but they clearly decided to go with longevity above all, maybe they should recalculate what they think is ok to allow better range and charging performance.

I'm led to believe that the poor range on that test is due to battery conditioning, Toyota might have choose to heat up the battery up to around 32ºC and keep it that way the entire time... We might need to wait for the 1000km test from Bjorn to verify this, but I do think that between the last charging sessions the range should improve significantly on cold weather.

As far the charging goes, everyone talks about charging up to 80%, but they decided to limit it to another whole level...

They need to improve the software, perhaps allow the user to set up the departing time and the car automatically preconditions the battery while plugged in.

Not that this is (in my view) an excuse, but it might be the reason.

 

[spwolf]

This is no excuse for TMC, but they clearly decided to go with longevity above all, maybe they should recalculate what they think is ok to allow better range and charging performance.

I'm led to believe that the poor range on that test is due to battery conditioning, Toyota might have choose to heat up the battery up to around 32ºC and keep it that way the entire time... We might need to wait for the 1000km test from Bjorn to verify this, but I do think that between the last charging sessions the range should improve significantly on cold weather.

As far the charging goes, everyone talks about charging up to 80%, but they decided to limit it to another whole level...

They need to improve the software, perhaps allow the user to set up the departing time and the car automatically preconditions the battery while plugged in.

Not that this is (in my view) an excuse, but it might be the reason.

Funny part is one of the tests above actually pre-heated all the vehicles and it is same result. So vehicles were warmed up on AC charger first, and that usually means that battery is preheated.

Toyota can certainly fix some of these things like using only 60kwh of the battery, super slow charging after 80%, and lets hope they can also improve cold weather performance. Keep in mind the warm weather performance is also below average compared to official ratings.

And yes, they plan to actually sell many in Europe, so i am very sure that European dealers are creating a lot of motions internally.

You just should not buy it until a lot of things happen.

 

[ssun30]

Funny part is one of the tests above actually pre-heated all the vehicles and it is same result. So vehicles were warmed up on AC charger first, and that usually means that battery is preheated.

Toyota can certainly fix some of these things like using only 60kwh of the battery, super slow charging after 80%, and lets hope they can also improve cold weather performance. Keep in mind the warm weather performance is also below average compared to official ratings.

And yes, they plan to actually sell many in Europe, so i am very sure that European dealers are creating a lot of motions internally.

You just should not buy it until a lot of things happen.

I'm afraid doing those modifications will also force them to renege their durability promise and battery warranty. 90% leftover capacity in 10 years is a lot more ambitious than 80% in 10 years. And I think even if they do make those changes they will be limited to Panasonic models.

What I fear more is they chose a supplier that promised better safety but failed to deliver in the real world. They will be selling the BYD-supplied BZ3 in Europe. And those LFP cells will fare much worse in winter.

 

[CRSKTN]

I think we should wait and see what their software updates deliver. Electric platforms can get more operationally out of software improvements than ICE can, I believe.

 

[Will1991]

Funny part is one of the tests above actually pre-heated all the vehicles and it is same result. So vehicles were warmed up on AC charger first, and that usually means that battery is preheated.

Toyota can certainly fix some of these things like using only 60kwh of the battery, super slow charging after 80%, and lets hope they can also improve cold weather performance. Keep in mind the warm weather performance is also below average compared to official ratings.

And yes, they plan to actually sell many in Europe, so i am very sure that European dealers are creating a lot of motions internally.

You just should not buy it until a lot of things happen.

For me the saddest part is the lack of efficiency… After so much know how and being so far ahead of efficiency on their hybrids I was expecting so much more than middle of the pack (at best?).
Even forgetting about Tesla, looking into the ID family it seems to be a much better proposition…
I wouldn’t mind the more conservative fast charging, but the lack of efficiency kills me.


Then, when we get into the premium segment with likes of iX, eTron and the EQE SUV they’re showing up with the RZ450e that’s on par on range/performance as the iX3/EQC that we’re launched a lot of time ago in ICE platforms.

I'm afraid doing those modifications will also force them to renege their durability promise and battery warranty. 90% leftover capacity in 10 years is a lot more ambitious than 80% in 10 years. And I think even if they do make those changes they will be limited to Panasonic models.

What I fear more is they chose a supplier that promised better safety but failed to deliver in the real world. They will be selling the BYD-supplied BZ3 in Europe. And those LFP cells will fare much worse in winter.

I’m curious on how long they think those batteries will last with SOC Health at 80% and 70%, do you have any info?
We’re starting to get those first Leaf’s and Model S’s with 10 years, I’m curious to know how they will hold up from now on.

I think we should wait and see what their software updates deliver. Electric platforms can get more operationally out of software improvements than ICE can, I believe.

Let’s hope TMC manages to improve all of this!

 

[Gecko]

I don't have any doubt that Toyota will ultimately fix this and become more competitive with battery technology, but much about the bZ4x is downright embarrassing and it's making me wonder if this is why the RZ has been delayed.

Sometimes humiliation is good for Toyota -- seriously.

 

[CRSKTN]

They need to lean into their recent US team development and build themselves out as a software company on top of their refined industrial foundations.

I think if they can achieve Apple-like software and hardware integration down the road thanks to their enormous existing capabilities, they could deliver amazing things.

 

[Will1991]

I don't have any doubt that Toyota will ultimately fix this and become more competitive with battery technology, but much about the bZ4x is downright embarrassing and it's making me wonder if this is why the RZ has been delayed.

Sometimes humiliation is good for Toyota -- seriously.

Do you have any info on how much the RZ have been delayed?

 

[Gecko]

Do you have any info on how much the RZ have been delayed?

I don't, but per their original announcements, it was supposed to be on sale in November, I believe. That hasn't happened yet and I don't think we've even seen pricing.

As of now, Lexus.com is saying, "Early 2023."

**EDIT** Yes, the early drives noted a November 2022 on-sale date. Most of the local Lexus dealer websites now say "December 2022" while Lexus.com says "Early 2023."

I believe once pricing is announced, order banks can open, but we all know there's quite a lead time to pricing announcements, SOP and cars being delivered and purchased.

 

[Levi]

I'd say we should not buy any BEV until there is new battery tech.


Crude maths:

	Battery	Weight (of battery)	Weight/kWh	Range (EPA)	Range/kWh
2012 Tesla S	60 kWh	848 lbs / 385 kg	14.13 lbs / 6.4 kg	208 mi / 335 km	3.5 mi / 5.58 km
2021 Tesla S	100 kWh	1377 lbs / 625 kg	13.77 lbs / 6.25 kg	405 mi / 652 km	4.0 mi / 6.52 km
change	+ 67%	+ 62%	- 0.03%	+ 95%	+ 17 %

In 10 years, tech allows us to for the same capacity, to increase range by 1/5. But that improvement does not come from the battery chemistry or tech, only from efficiency, and that is software.

 

[ssun30]

I'd say we should not buy any BEV until there is new battery tech.

That's a wise thing to do.

 

[internalaudit]

I'd say we should not buy any BEV until there is new battery tech.


Crude maths:

	Battery	Weight (of battery)	Weight/kWh	Range (EPA)	Range/kWh
2012 Tesla S	60 kWh	848 lbs / 385 kg	14.13 lbs / 6.4 kg	208 mi / 335 km	3.5 mi / 5.58 km
2021 Tesla S	100 kWh	1377 lbs / 625 kg	13.77 lbs / 6.25 kg	405 mi / 652 km	4.0 mi / 6.52 km
change	+ 67%	+ 62%	- 0.03%	+ 95%	+ 17 %

In 10 years, tech allows us to for the same capacity, to increase range by 1/5. But that improvement does not come from the battery chemistry or tech, only from efficiency, and that is software.

Yeah, I am not committing myself to getting a Macan EV since my wife decided we should split our finances lol. I'm not that doting of a husband.

If that's the case, I'm definitely going to wait for a Lexus sedan BEV with torque vectoring (easy part) and better battery technology or better battery warranty. 10 years on Li-ion won't do it for me and for now, in Canada, battery warranty is only eight years on the bZ4X unlike in EU, where it's 10 years.

Will just take my CT200h maybe to 400,000 km lol while waiting.

 

[spwolf]

I don't have any doubt that Toyota will ultimately fix this and become more competitive with battery technology, but much about the bZ4x is downright embarrassing and it's making me wonder if this is why the RZ has been delayed.

Sometimes humiliation is good for Toyota -- seriously.

Turns out they are way more behind than what we originally thought.

It is not really question of Tesla, but rather VW, Hyundai, Ford and upcoming Chinese.

What BYD is doing today is very Toyota like, it is downright scary how big they are growing and how quickly. They are not looking at Tesla, but rather Toyota, and are quickly building economies of scale that nobody has.

As someone else mentioned, just like Software and autonomous driving development, Toyota has to take EV development out of Japan. Japanese don't get it.

I would not be surprised if that ends up happening after this fiasco.

 

[ssun30]

November saw 2749 bZ4X sold in China from FAW and GAC combined. That's already more than all C-HR EVs they sold in a year.

Still a rocky start, but Toyota selling 4 digits of BEV in one market a month is a pretty big milestone for them. There's a lot of work to do for them to achieve the 88k annual production planned for the bZ4X. If they could maintain a 3k+ volume a month then the project is at least salvageable.

I would not be surprised if that ends up happening after this fiasco.

For all the mistakes they have made so far, they did one thing extremely smart and that is creating a JV and signing a tech transfer agreement with BYD. Let's hope they learn the right things like cost control not the wrong things like windshield falling off or spontaneous combustion. The bZ3 will be the learning project that will make or break their entire EV plans.