The Lexus RZ Megathread (450e, 300e)

[ssun30]

Who knows what will happen by then, TMC should get its act together or they will lose all of their Chinese sales, which are substantial (was biggest market). So there is hope.

However, they do have to make engineers drive these daily and compare them to good BEV competition. Otherwise nothing will work.

Their problem is far from just their BEV offerings. All their products are terrible value (overpriced). The Chinese car market is like JDM in early 1990s, very cheap cars with lots of features and tech due to a very strong supply chain.

No reasonable person would buy a 170PS ES200 with barebones interior for ¥300k when for the same price you can get a 500PS BEV with 700km range, 36-inch infotainment, onboard refrigerator, soft close doors, panoramic sunroof and a bunch of other features Lexus still don't offer on a $100k product. Just 5 years ago they were charging ¥150k mark-up for a base ES300h and now the ES is a laughing stock. That's well-deserved Karma.

The Chinese car market exposed the inconvenient truth about the global automobile industry: for decades car manufacturers have been fleecing consumers with features with over 1000% profit margin. Heated seats only became standard feature on mainstream cars this decade when they only cost $50 in parts and installation. The so-called "premium packages" and "luxury packages" are just bundles of cheap parts that have been in production for decades (e.g. memory seats were invented in 1950s and produced at mass scale since 1990s). Toyota in recent years have become the worst offender of this trend. Just look at the $9000 Tacoma "TRD Offroad Premium Package", it mostly consists of features that should be free on the standard Tacoma TRD Offroad. And we have Lexus charging $8000 for massage seats and hands-free tailgate.

 

[internalaudit]

With any new hardware, longevity is driven by software and well we know how far most oems are willing to support their software:until the warranty is over. From there its all about the aftermarket. Small volume evs will suffer if the oem does a bad job of keeping aftermarket communication channels closed source. I would say owning a large volume ev like a tesla will have it perks, with parts and aftermarket community.

I guess it makes even more sense to go with manufacturers that makes the most reliable software/ battery combination.

Go with higher volume BEVs or at least makes where software / battery are going to be proven reliable enough not to keep requiring updates. Mechanical components such as suspension can be serviced by independent shops.

As for software, warranty ends three or four years after the in service date, but most likely the BEVs will have to be drivable until the battery warranty is out or it can lead to public outcry( just like the HV cable corrosion on the Toyota RAV4 H which was only covered under the factory warranty), with the owner likely shouldering software repair / work costs.

Teslas do get OTA updates way past eight years but the problem is the overall build quality for many units. They're just not put together as well as say a Honda or Toyota product it seems.

 

[internalaudit]

Their problem is far from just their BEV offerings. All their products are terrible value (overpriced). The Chinese car market is like JDM in early 1990s, very cheap cars with lots of features and tech due to a very strong supply chain.

No reasonable person would buy a 170PS ES200 with barebones interior for ¥300k when for the same price you can get a 500PS BEV with 700km range, 36-inch infotainment, onboard refrigerator, soft close doors, panoramic sunroof and a bunch of other features Lexus still don't offer on a $100k product. Just 5 years ago they were charging ¥150k mark-up for a base ES300h and now the ES is a laughing stock. That's well-deserved Karma.

The Chinese car market exposed the inconvenient truth about the global automobile industry: for decades car manufacturers have been fleecing consumers with features with over 1000% profit margin. Heated seats only became standard feature on mainstream cars this decade when they only cost $50 in parts and installation. The so-called "premium packages" and "luxury packages" are just bundles of cheap parts that have been in production for decades (e.g. memory seats were invented in 1950s and produced at mass scale since 1990s). Toyota in recent years have become the worst offender of this trend. Just look at the $9000 Tacoma "TRD Offroad Premium Package", it mostly consists of features that should be free on the standard Tacoma TRD Offroad. And we have Lexus charging $8000 for massage seats and hands-free tailgate.

So at $15,000 USD, these Chinese BEVs get no government subsidy?

Wow, heated seats are $50 for parts and installation. And massage functions, like $100 at most?

So after the supply chain disruption, prices are not way higher than before?

What about talks about second generation chips? What do they afford better compared to the previous generation? Are they not much pricier?

Glad Canada is considering allowing BYD and other manufacturers to sell BEVs and PHEVs here. Consumers need some break from these "gouging". The government will make bank with all the tariffs too lol.

 

[sl0519]

Their problem is far from just their BEV offerings. All their products are terrible value (overpriced). The Chinese car market is like JDM in early 1990s, very cheap cars with lots of features and tech due to a very strong supply chain.

No reasonable person would buy a 170PS ES200 with barebones interior for ¥300k when for the same price you can get a 500PS BEV with 700km range, 36-inch infotainment, onboard refrigerator, soft close doors, panoramic sunroof and a bunch of other features Lexus still don't offer on a $100k product. Just 5 years ago they were charging ¥150k mark-up for a base ES300h and now the ES is a laughing stock. That's well-deserved Karma.

The Chinese car market exposed the inconvenient truth about the global automobile industry: for decades car manufacturers have been fleecing consumers with features with over 1000% profit margin. Heated seats only became standard feature on mainstream cars this decade when they only cost $50 in parts and installation. The so-called "premium packages" and "luxury packages" are just bundles of cheap parts that have been in production for decades (e.g. memory seats were invented in 1950s and produced at mass scale since 1990s). Toyota in recent years have become the worst offender of this trend. Just look at the $9000 Tacoma "TRD Offroad Premium Package", it mostly consists of features that should be free on the standard Tacoma TRD Offroad. And we have Lexus charging $8000 for massage seats and hands-free tailgate.

I love what Chinese manufacturers are doing with all these cheap offering (yet well-spec) EVs, but aren't they losing money (correct me if I'm wrong) each one they make?

 

[Levi]

Their problem is far from just their BEV offerings. All their products are terrible value (overpriced). The Chinese car market is like JDM in early 1990s, very cheap cars with lots of features and tech due to a very strong supply chain.

No reasonable person would buy a 170PS ES200 with barebones interior for ¥300k when for the same price you can get a 500PS BEV with 700km range, 36-inch infotainment, onboard refrigerator, soft close doors, panoramic sunroof and a bunch of other features Lexus still don't offer on a $100k product. Just 5 years ago they were charging ¥150k mark-up for a base ES300h and now the ES is a laughing stock. That's well-deserved Karma.

The Chinese car market exposed the inconvenient truth about the global automobile industry: for decades car manufacturers have been fleecing consumers with features with over 1000% profit margin. Heated seats only became standard feature on mainstream cars this decade when they only cost $50 in parts and installation. The so-called "premium packages" and "luxury packages" are just bundles of cheap parts that have been in production for decades (e.g. memory seats were invented in 1950s and produced at mass scale since 1990s). Toyota in recent years have become the worst offender of this trend. Just look at the $9000 Tacoma "TRD Offroad Premium Package", it mostly consists of features that should be free on the standard Tacoma TRD Offroad. And we have Lexus charging $8000 for massage seats and hands-free tailgate.

If you looked at the luxury watch industry? It is even worse.

A name without substance is worthless.

 

[Flagship1]

If you looked at the luxury watch industry? It is even worse.

A name without substance is worthless.

Toyota is pushing Lexus upmarket, expect more of this behavior.

 

[ssun30]

So at $15,000 USD, these Chinese BEVs get no government subsidy?

Wow, heated seats are $50 for parts and installation. And massage functions, like $100 at most?

So after the supply chain disruption, prices are not way higher than before?

What about talks about second generation chips? What do they afford better compared to the previous generation? Are they not much pricier?

Glad Canada is considering allowing BYD and other manufacturers to sell BEVs and PHEVs here. Consumers need some break from these "gouging". The government will make bank with all the tariffs too lol.

BEV subsidies ended at the end of 2022. The BEV price war actually started after subsidies ended.

In modern "smart" cars, a lot of functions could be controlled by a single system-on-chip and that reduces chip usage by over 90%. Toyota themselves claimed they were able to consolidate 28 chips into 1 since last year. Only safety-sensitive functionalities should be controlled by multiple redundant and independent chips. The reduction in wiring saves weight and cost (see Ford Mustang Mach-E, where they realized they had 1.6 km and 70kg of unnecessary wiring in the car). Similarly, upgrading the onboard DC power to 48V reduces cost/weight and improves reliability of high power consumption parts like AC compressor and power steering pump.

I love what Chinese manufacturers are doing with all these cheap offering (yet well-spec) EVs, but aren't they losing money (correct me if I'm wrong) each one they make?

Many manufacturers are losing money, and as a result the "new energy vehicle" segment of the stock market has lost 60% in market value this year alone. That's the inevitable for not having vertical integration. Having in-house manufacturing of the "three electrics" (battery, motor, power electronics) is a must to survive. Relying on third-party solutions (like what German brands are doing) is a recipe for failure.

 

[internalaudit]

BEV subsidies ended at the end of 2022. The BEV price war actually started after subsidies ended.

In modern "smart" cars, a lot of functions could be controlled by a single system-on-chip and that reduces chip usage by over 90%. Toyota themselves claimed they were able to consolidate 28 chips into 1 since last year. Only safety-sensitive functionalities should be controlled by multiple redundant and independent chips. The reduction in wiring saves weight and cost (see Ford Mustang Mach-E, where they realized they had 1.6 km and 70kg of unnecessary wiring in the car). Similarly, upgrading the onboard DC power to 48V reduces cost/weight and improves reliability of high power consumption parts like AC compressor and power steering pump.


Many manufacturers are losing money, and as a result the "new energy vehicle" segment of the stock market has lost 60% in market value this year alone. That's the inevitable for not having vertical integration. Having in-house manufacturing of the "three electrics" (battery, motor, power electronics) is a must to survive. Relying on third-party solutions (like what German brands are doing) is a recipe for failure.

Nice. Why 48V and not even higher? Is it because accessory batteries only go up to 48V?

So in your opinion, which are the top most reliable battery makers?

CATL, Samsung SDI and Panasonic?

 

[carguy420]

Their problem is far from just their BEV offerings. All their products are terrible value (overpriced). The Chinese car market is like JDM in early 1990s, very cheap cars with lots of features and tech due to a very strong supply chain.

No reasonable person would buy a 170PS ES200 with barebones interior for ¥300k when for the same price you can get a 500PS BEV with 700km range, 36-inch infotainment, onboard refrigerator, soft close doors, panoramic sunroof and a bunch of other features Lexus still don't offer on a $100k product. Just 5 years ago they were charging ¥150k mark-up for a base ES300h and now the ES is a laughing stock. That's well-deserved Karma.

The Chinese car market exposed the inconvenient truth about the global automobile industry: for decades car manufacturers have been fleecing consumers with features with over 1000% profit margin. Heated seats only became standard feature on mainstream cars this decade when they only cost $50 in parts and installation. The so-called "premium packages" and "luxury packages" are just bundles of cheap parts that have been in production for decades (e.g. memory seats were invented in 1950s and produced at mass scale since 1990s). Toyota in recent years have become the worst offender of this trend. Just look at the $9000 Tacoma "TRD Offroad Premium Package", it mostly consists of features that should be free on the standard Tacoma TRD Offroad. And we have Lexus charging $8000 for massage seats and hands-free tailgate.

If Toyota made something that's exactly like Mazda's CX-90, they'll probably ask for something like $80k MSRP lol. While I most likely will never be attracted to Chinese cars, I'm definitely seeing that the more well known car manufacturers are cashing in hard on their brand names' power and the reputation of their past products, even though their quality keep going downwards.

 

[mediumhot]

If Toyota made something that's exactly like Mazda's CX-90, they'll probably ask for something like $80k MSRP lol. While I most likely will never be attracted to Chinese cars, I'm definitely seeing that the more well known car manufacturers are cashing in hard on their brand names' power and the reputation of their past products, even though their quality keep going downwards.

There are some good premium Chinese EVs but they cost as much as established premium brand EV counterparts. They are not doing a Lexus LS or Infiniti pricing strategy this time around.

 

[ssun30]

There are some good premium Chinese EVs but they cost as much as established premium brand EV counterparts. They are not doing a Lexus LS or Infiniti pricing strategy this time around.

They rely on high profit margins in the international market to make up for the price war at home. Still, while the prices are high, many of them offer most features on the base trim instead of locking them behind expensive packages.

Nice. Why 48V and not even higher? Is it because accessory batteries only go up to 48V?

So in your opinion, which are the top most reliable battery makers?

CATL, Samsung SDI and Panasonic?

50V is the highest safe DC voltage. Higher than that requires specialized training and certification. Most mechanics are not certified to work on high voltage electrical systems in strong hybrids and that's part of the reason many manufacturers go for 48V mild hybrids.

 

[ericjtsang]

2025 Cadillac OPTIQ Luxury 1 Specs & Features | Edmunds

Detailed specs and features for the 2025 Cadillac OPTIQ Luxury 1 including dimensions, horsepower, engine, capacity, fuel economy, transmission, engine type, cylinders, drivetrain and more.

www.edmunds.com

Cadillac Optiq is similar in price/size as the RZ300e with about 300 range (vs RZ's 266). Caddy has 85kwh battery vs the RZ's 72.8. It is much less efficient than the lexus, but based on edmunds, it somehow weighs about 1000 pounds more? which explains how it only get about 34 more miles from 12.2 more kWh - which doesn't seem very efficient so it must be that heavy

 

[spwolf]

2025 Cadillac OPTIQ Luxury 1 Specs & Features | Edmunds

Detailed specs and features for the 2025 Cadillac OPTIQ Luxury 1 including dimensions, horsepower, engine, capacity, fuel economy, transmission, engine type, cylinders, drivetrain and more.

www.edmunds.com

Cadillac Optiq is similar in price/size as the RZ300e with about 300 range (vs RZ's 266). Caddy has 85kwh battery vs the RZ's 72.8. It is much less efficient than the lexus, but based on edmunds, it somehow weighs about 1000 pounds more? which explains how it only get about 34 more miles from 12.2 more kWh - which doesn't seem very efficient so it must be that heavy

Nobody cares about Caddy BEVs.
Just dont look at real world efficiency tests for RZ300e.

 

[internalaudit]

They rely on high profit margins in the international market to make up for the price war at home. Still, while the prices are high, many of them offer most features on the base trim instead of locking them behind expensive packages.


50V is the highest safe DC voltage. Higher than that requires specialized training and certification. Most mechanics are not certified to work on high voltage electrical systems in strong hybrids and that's part of the reason many manufacturers go for 48V mild hybrids.

I watched an interview with a Lucid executive and they stayed with 12V because a lot more accessories have to be stepped down from even 12V.

Interesting how different manufacturers approach the evolution.

 

[ericjtsang]

Nobody cares about Caddy BEVs.
Just dont look at real world efficiency tests for RZ300e.

Where are you seeing these tests? I’d love to see and compare to my own. I’m hitting the epa mark with climate on in Texas

 

[Sulu]

With new technology comes new BEV software/systems anyway, hopefully they will think about ease of performing upgrades without having to visit the dealership network.

New technology comes not only from software but also electronics hardware. While changes to hardware technology is not as visible as software, it is as important to the concept of the software-defined vehicle (SDV).

New hardware may not run old software, and old software definitely cannot make full use of the capabilities of new hardware nor can merely updating software add new functionality that is dependent on specific hardware.

One good -- and extremely important -- example is networking technology, specifically the technology that connects each vehicle to the internet. Toyota uses the cellular network to connect their vehicles to the internet, which allows the use of the Toyota app.

There has already been an uproar (search for it in old discussions on this forum) when cellular carriers in the USA announced the retirement of older network technology (3G, if I remember correctly), instantly cutting off those vehicles from connecting to the outside world. Current Toyota and Lexus models (I assume they run 4G) are fine but their lifespan is limited, perhaps not in the foreseeable future but most definitely in a few years; those people who like to keep their vehicles for a decade or more, or those who purchase older used vehicles will find that their cars are running with technology that cannot be updated.

Another example are the new sensors coming into use for increasingly automated driving functions (e.g. lidar and the greater proliferation of ultrasonic parking sensors). The new sensors will not (cannot) be updated and retrofitted to existing vehicles, and merely updating software cannot add the functionality of those new sensors.

 

[internalaudit]

New technology comes not only from software but also electronics hardware. While changes to hardware technology is not as visible as software, it is as important to the concept of the software-defined vehicle (SDV).

New hardware may not run old software, and old software definitely cannot make full use of the capabilities of new hardware nor can merely updating software add new functionality that is dependent on specific hardware.

One good -- and extremely important -- example is networking technology, specifically the technology that connects each vehicle to the internet. Toyota uses the cellular network to connect their vehicles to the internet, which allows the use of the Toyota app.

There has already been an uproar (search for it in old discussions on this forum) when cellular carriers in the USA announced the retirement of older network technology (3G, if I remember correctly), instantly cutting off those vehicles from connecting to the outside world. Current Toyota and Lexus models (I assume they run 4G) are fine but their lifespan is limited, perhaps not in the foreseeable future but most definitely in a few years; those people who like to keep their vehicles for a decade or more, or those who purchase older used vehicles will find that their cars are running with technology that cannot be updated.

Another example are the new sensors coming into use for increasingly automated driving functions (e.g. lidar and the greater proliferation of ultrasonic parking sensors). The new sensors will not (cannot) be updated and retrofitted to existing vehicles, and merely updating software cannot add the functionality of those new sensors.

Good stuff.

Besides the battery management system (based on new data / discoveries / new type of charging compatibility/protocol / temperature/voltage/current), I don't really see what other software needs to be constantly updated maybe save for additional features on the infotainment system or to unlock future features that the hardware is capable already or safety/technology issues found that need to be fixed. There are not many safety/technologies in a BEV not already found in ICEVs anyway.

Even with advance features like torque vectoring differential, all the possibilities of vehicle movement / surface friction should have already been included in the reference data so unless there was an error somewhere, doubt it requires any updates unless the aggressiveness/passiveness of the system had to be adjusted.

I have never had to be concerned with the software of my ICEVs and HEV. If there is anything that is stopping it from being drivable, I'm pretty sure it will be powertrain or drivetrain related and not software-related. Hoping manufacturers to get to sort out these software issues with BEVs in their succeeding BEV generations. Factory warranty of three or four years isn't really instilling much confidence that BEVs will remain drivable as ICEVs and HEVs are past 12 years.

 

[Flagship1]

New technology comes not only from software but also electronics hardware. While changes to hardware technology is not as visible as software, it is as important to the concept of the software-defined vehicle (SDV).

New hardware may not run old software, and old software definitely cannot make full use of the capabilities of new hardware nor can merely updating software add new functionality that is dependent on specific hardware.

One good -- and extremely important -- example is networking technology, specifically the technology that connects each vehicle to the internet. Toyota uses the cellular network to connect their vehicles to the internet, which allows the use of the Toyota app.

There has already been an uproar (search for it in old discussions on this forum) when cellular carriers in the USA announced the retirement of older network technology (3G, if I remember correctly), instantly cutting off those vehicles from connecting to the outside world. Current Toyota and Lexus models (I assume they run 4G) are fine but their lifespan is limited, perhaps not in the foreseeable future but most definitely in a few years; those people who like to keep their vehicles for a decade or more, or those who purchase older used vehicles will find that their cars are running with technology that cannot be updated.

Another example are the new sensors coming into use for increasingly automated driving functions (e.g. lidar and the greater proliferation of ultrasonic parking sensors). The new sensors will not (cannot) be updated and retrofitted to existing vehicles, and merely updating software cannot add the functionality of those new sensors.

New hardware will limit software, but some automakers given the option to offer paid retrofit will choose to ignore the possibility of offering customers upgrade paths outside of buying a new vehicle.

Case in point the 3g modem debacle with toyota, they said tough luck and case closed. Other oems stepped upto the plate by offering customers an option of a 4g moderm upgrade. Similarly Mazda began offering carplay upgraded to select customers, while other automakers decided new car new carplay.

They run a business and profits over anything is the name of the game, so no tears shed here, but with evs, if the idea is building a disposable product, then might as well find the shiniest new toy that suits one's needs and ignore softspot select legacy brands have in regards to quality and reliability.

 

[internalaudit]

I don't understand why people keep suggesting BEVs are toys but ICEVs aren't. They're all cars, propulsion system (if all of them easily lasts 16 years) doesn't really influence how soon to dispose of them. All I know is software bugs affect BEVs more than it does ICEVs and HEVs and I'm going to be very mindful of which manufacturers make the most reliable BMS/software.

As long as they meet my driving distance requirements and data points to battery longevity and a few key features like torque vectoring, why the hell would I want the latest and greatest BEV with the most driving distance, fastest charging speed, and 128 vs. 16 interior ambient light colors or even 50% improvement in torque vectoring performance?

To hell with OTA updates via 3G/4G/5G as long as future updates aren't related to safety issues.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

I don't understand why people keep suggesting BEVs are toys but ICEVs aren't. They're all cars, propulsion system (if all of them easily lasts 16 years) doesn't really influence how soon to dispose of them. All I know is software bugs affect BEVs more than it does ICEVs and HEVs and I'm going to be very mindful of which manufacturers make the most reliable BMS/software.

I think the different perception comes from the extent to which basic drivability and handling in BEVs is a function of the software. Even though the engine won't start without the computer, most ICEVs are still mechanical in terms of steering/throttle/brakes and full drive-by-wire is rare. (Most ICEVs for the last 10-15 years have at least some ability for a computer to drive the car for ADAS but the fundamentals are still mechanical). If ICEVs were similarly reliant on software we'd see a lot more problems from manufacturers with bad software and BEVs wouldn't be singled out as toys.