spwolf

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  • New front-wheel drive Lexus RZ 300e offers driving range of up to 297 miles*
  • Six-model range with on-the-road prices from £49,995
  • Available to order now; initial customer deliveries from October

they will get sales, once software is up to scratch and batteries are good. Still ways to go as charging routes are not integrated into navigation and battery charges pretty slow.

but yes, it is a step in right direction because their sales teams are telling TMC what they need from the car, not engineers deciding that people drive 40 miles a day so they dont need high mileage ev.
 

ssun30

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they will get sales, once software is up to scratch and batteries are good. Still ways to go as charging routes are not integrated into navigation and battery charges pretty slow.

but yes, it is a step in right direction because their sales teams are telling TMC what they need from the car, not engineers deciding that people drive 40 miles a day so they dont need high mileage ev.
480km in WLTP cycle still isn't a lot though... I was expecting them to follow the Kaizen approach and increase range bit by bit so they could use it as a learning practice. They should have improved the range to about 530km by now if they improved on the original 2022 design. They had lots of low-hanging fruit to improve efficiency and cut costs. I wonder if they still have that stupid extra 11kW AC-DC converter while keeping the 6.6kW unit as a dead weight in the ESU.

Their "new" trim structure isn't really new since it's identical to the NA structure where they still refuse to offer 18-inch eco wheels on the Luxury trim, so buyers who want more features are still punished with less range. This is especially bad since their non-eco wheels lose way more range than competitors (RZ300e loses 15% range from the 20-inch wheel and RZ450e loses 11%). Very stupid decision.
 

spwolf

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480km in WLTP cycle still isn't a lot though... I was expecting them to follow the Kaizen approach and increase range bit by bit so they could use it as a learning practice. They should have improved the range to about 530km by now if they improved on the original 2022 design. They had lots of low-hanging fruit to improve efficiency and cut costs. I wonder if they still have that stupid extra 11kW AC-DC converter while keeping the 6.6kW unit as a dead weight in the ESU.

Their "new" trim structure isn't really new since it's identical to the NA structure where they still refuse to offer 18-inch eco wheels on the Luxury trim, so buyers who want more features are still punished with less range. This is especially bad since their non-eco wheels lose way more range than competitors (RZ300e loses 15% range from the 20-inch wheel and RZ450e loses 11%). Very stupid decision.

yeah, i know.

even if they get magic battery (btw they buy most batteries from suppliers today), they are actually behind of efficiency, and they are way, way behind on software.

So if somehow they get better battery than people actually selling millions of EVs (and spending money on RD for millions of batteries), they are still behind and it will be less efficient.

Volvo is having issues with their google os integration but i am sure it is closer to good system compared to TMCs where there is simply no route planning with charging, 2-3 years after they selling these BEVs. Despite the PRs, you can see they produce very little and their priorities is not there.

Thats their problem right now - they could add bigger battery to solve range a bit, but their software is just not built for BEVs.
 

qtb007

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yeah, i know.

even if they get magic battery (btw they buy most batteries from suppliers today), they are actually behind of efficiency, and they are way, way behind on software.

So if somehow they get better battery than people actually selling millions of EVs (and spending money on RD for millions of batteries), they are still behind and it will be less efficient.

Volvo is having issues with their google os integration but i am sure it is closer to good system compared to TMCs where there is simply no route planning with charging, 2-3 years after they selling these BEVs. Despite the PRs, you can see they produce very little and their priorities is not there.

Thats their problem right now - they could add bigger battery to solve range a bit, but their software is just not built for BEVs.


2WD sedan
2WD sedan
2WD sedan
2WD CUV (RZ)
2WD sedan
2WD sedan
2WD sub-compact CUV
2WD CUV (bZ)
2WD sedan
2WD sedan
2WD sedan

The RZ and bZ are both quite competitive when it comes to efficiency. They are both crossovers dicing it up with a bunch of sedan. I don't think there is an issue with the battery efficiency or the motor efficiency. It is simply a matter of how deep in the discharge Toyota will let the battery go and how many kW they will let into the battery (both choices made -- most likely -- for longevity).

Regardless, the operating cost difference between 3.1mi/kwh (middle of the pack) and 4.2mi/kwh (best) is a whopping $12/mo for $0.17/kwh @ 10k miles per year. It is dross. This is nothing to get wrapped around the axle about. Get the one you like best for the absolute cheapest amount of money possible because depreciation is the big cost of BEVs, not operating costs. Any normal BEV (e.g. not a Hummer) is going to have insanely low operating costs unless the owner bought a BEV without access to charging at home. If you want to go electric, the only concern should be getting the vehicle for as cheap as possible and ensuring you have a way to charge at home.
 

ssun30

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The RZ and bZ are both quite competitive when it comes to efficiency. They are both crossovers dicing it up with a bunch of sedan. I don't think there is an issue with the battery efficiency or the motor efficiency. It is simply a matter of how deep in the discharge Toyota will let the battery go and how many kW they will let into the battery (both choices made -- most likely -- for longevity).

Regardless, the operating cost difference between 3.1mi/kwh (middle of the pack) and 4.2mi/kwh (best) is a whopping $12/mo for $0.17/kwh @ 10k miles per year. It is dross. This is nothing to get wrapped around the axle about. Get the one you like best for the absolute cheapest amount of money possible because depreciation is the big cost of BEVs, not operating costs. Any normal BEV (e.g. not a Hummer) is going to have insanely low operating costs unless the owner bought a BEV without access to charging at home. If you want to go electric, the only concern should be getting the vehicle for as cheap as possible and ensuring you have a way to charge at home.
The efficiencies listed are manufacturer claimed results not real world. Official numbers from Lexus are questionable. The RZ300e's net capacity is 63kWh so with their claimed 270Wh/mi efficiency it should only get 233mi of range not the advertised 266mi. The real world range will likely be closer to 233 not 266. The only way for them to get 266 is if the full 71.8kWh capacity is used, but we know the 9kWh buffer is not accessible at all. That's 33mi of range that only exists on paper or in limp mode.

There needs to be standardized tests conducted by regulators instead of manufacturers reporting the numbers themselves. The efficiency needs to be measured by wall-to-wheel methods (how much energy is actually consumed at the charger not how much is charged into the battery, so it takes DC-DC efficiency into account). Manufacturers should also ONLY report net battery capacity and not allowed to include emergency mode/limp mode range in advertised range. This way consumers can know exactly what they are getting. I have no idea why EPA still uses the stupid MPGe metric. It's not like people are trying to fill their EVs with gasoline. That needs to be replaced with mi/kWh.

More efficient BEVs are inherently cheaper because they can use a smaller/cheaper battery for the same targeted range. Toyota has made this point before. But it seems they only remember the smaller part but forgot the more efficient part.
 
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Flagship1

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2WD sedan
2WD sedan
2WD sedan
2WD CUV (RZ)
2WD sedan
2WD sedan
2WD sub-compact CUV
2WD CUV (bZ)
2WD sedan
2WD sedan
2WD sedan

The RZ and bZ are both quite competitive when it comes to efficiency. They are both crossovers dicing it up with a bunch of sedan. I don't think there is an issue with the battery efficiency or the motor efficiency. It is simply a matter of how deep in the discharge Toyota will let the battery go and how many kW they will let into the battery (both choices made -- most likely -- for longevity).

Regardless, the operating cost difference between 3.1mi/kwh (middle of the pack) and 4.2mi/kwh (best) is a whopping $12/mo for $0.17/kwh @ 10k miles per year. It is dross. This is nothing to get wrapped around the axle about. Get the one you like best for the absolute cheapest amount of money possible because depreciation is the big cost of BEVs, not operating costs. Any normal BEV (e.g. not a Hummer) is going to have insanely low operating costs unless the owner bought a BEV without access to charging at home. If you want to go electric, the only concern should be getting the vehicle for as cheap as possible and ensuring you have a way to charge at home.
Dont know about the Lexus tidbit, but I do agree with getting the cheapest one possible.

*must resist taycan rwd for sub $600.
 

qtb007

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The efficiencies listed are manufacturer claimed results not real world. Official numbers from Lexus are questionable. The RZ300e's net capacity is 63kWh so with their claimed 270Wh/mi efficiency it should only get 233mi of range not the advertised 266mi. The real world range will likely be closer to 233 not 266. The only way for them to get 266 is if the full 71.8kWh capacity is used, but we know the 9kWh buffer is not accessible at all. That's 33mi of range that only exists on paper or in limp mode.

There needs to be standardized tests conducted by regulators instead of manufacturers reporting the numbers themselves. The efficiency needs to be measured by wall-to-wheel methods (how much energy is actually consumed at the charger not how much is charged into the battery, so it takes DC-DC efficiency into account). Manufacturers should also ONLY report net battery capacity and not allowed to include emergency mode/limp mode range in advertised range. This way consumers can know exactly what they are getting. I have no idea why EPA still uses the stupid MPGe metric. It's not like people are trying to fill their EVs with gasoline. That needs to be replaced with mi/kWh.

More efficient BEVs are inherently cheaper because they can use a smaller/cheaper battery for the same targeted range. Toyota has made this point before. But it seems they only remember the smaller part but forgot the more efficient part.
The efficiency ratings do come from standardized testing. Range ratings are wild west and should be standardized but there are a ton of factors that impact the true range of a vehicle that vary by owner. Garage kept, ability to pre-condition, HVAC usage, outside temp, travel speed, etc, etc. I can see why the government is staying a little hands off on that. Right or wrong, I understand why they chose not to regulate range reporting.

MPGe is used because it shows the comparison of energy usage against gasoline vehicles in terms that the regular person understands. The person that didn't go past algebra in HS can understand that an ICE uses 3-4x the energy as an equivalent BEV. For people that get into the weeds with this via excel spreadsheets, it isn't much to take the mpge number and divide it by 33.7 to get the kwh/mi rating. Since 9 out of 10 cars on the road use gasoline or diesel, it's useful to understand where BEVs fall in overall efficiency against the typical vehicle. The overall purpose, again, it to show that BEVs are FAR more efficient at using the energy put into them than gas or diesel vehicles. I believe there is an advertising element to this as well. The government wants to show the biggest gap. My wife's UX versus a bZ, for example. The UX is 1.2mi/kwh (of gas) and the bZ is 3.1mi/kwh (of electricity). It doesn't hit the same way on a window sticker as 42mpg versus 104mpge.

Tangent: I've always felt that we should show efficiency in the gal/100mi form instead of mpg because it better presents the actual operating cost. Improving a 15mpg (6.6gal/100mi) vehicle by 5mpg (5.0gal/100mi) is way more cost savings than improving a 40mpg (2.5gal/100mi) vehicle by 5mpg (2.2gal/100mi). I think this would also drive people away from purchasing trucks and SUVs over cars -- which is probably why they show mpg instead of gal/100mi. Automakers make more money selling trucks and SUVs so they probably had a say in how these were advertised intially. Similarly, with BEVs, we should probably be talking in kwh/100mi. The bZ would be 32.4kwh/100mi while my wife's UX is 80.2kwh/100mi (and my 4Runner is a whopping 177.4kwh/100mi!) That really hits home about the efficiency, IMO.

Cost is a whole other can of worms because electricity and gasoline costs vary so wildly across the US. Where I live, the energy equivalent of 1 gallon of gasoline is $5.73 ($0.17/kwh) while regular gas is $3.00/gal. So, a 104mpge rated bZ falls around $0.055/mi and my wife's 42mpg rated UX300h is $0.071/mi. True cost savings by going BEV are rather small for me. There are places with $0.06/kwh off peak and $5.00/gal gasoline and that swings the opposite way. There the bZ is $0.02/mi and the UX is $0.12/mi. Someone that uses DCFC for all their charging might be paying $0.35/kwh after the automaker's subsidy runs out and they'd actually be up around $0.12/mi. IMO, that's why we see simple, not so useful ratings on the sticker. Your personal situation really impacts whether the move to BEV makes sense or not.

Concluding my wordfort, the efficiency difference between BEV A and BEV B doesn't really matter in the long view. Getting 3.2mi/kwh isn't much different than 3.5mi/kwh. Any reasonable BEV is going to use very little energy. The rest of it comes down to your particular situation.
 
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The efficiencies listed are manufacturer claimed results not real world. Official numbers from Lexus are questionable. The RZ300e's net capacity is 63kWh so with their claimed 270Wh/mi efficiency it should only get 233mi of range not the advertised 266mi. The real world range will likely be closer to 233 not 266. The only way for them to get 266 is if the full 71.8kWh capacity is used, but we know the 9kWh buffer is not accessible at all. That's 33mi of range that only exists on paper or in limp mode.

There needs to be standardized tests conducted by regulators instead of manufacturers reporting the numbers themselves. The efficiency needs to be measured by wall-to-wheel methods (how much energy is actually consumed at the charger not how much is charged into the battery, so it takes DC-DC efficiency into account). Manufacturers should also ONLY report net battery capacity and not allowed to include emergency mode/limp mode range in advertised range. This way consumers can know exactly what they are getting. I have no idea why EPA still uses the stupid MPGe metric. It's not like people are trying to fill their EVs with gasoline. That needs to be replaced with mi/kWh.

More efficient BEVs are inherently cheaper because they can use a smaller/cheaper battery for the same targeted range. Toyota has made this point before. But it seems they only remember the smaller part but forgot the more efficient part.

I can easily surpass 266 miles in my 300e, so not sure your calculations are correct.

Unless the app is lying, which maybe it is ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I have one charge history of 5%-100% with 63.27kWh re charged after plugging it in. based on my maybe incorrect math, that would put it at about 66.5kWh "full" before the spare capacity of 72.8kWh. I usually reset the trip computer after each charge just to see the range and I was basically at 265+ miles when I plugged it in. Mix of highway/city, but mostly city.

Currently, with the lower temps, my current charge is 62% remaining and ive driven 145 miles. I've seen the first 50% gets more range than the second 50% of the charge though, but still on track to be over 266 miles.

I also did a highway trip driving 70-75mph and I drove 220 miles and arrived with 27% remaining. Knowing EVs are less efficient on highways, gets closer to your calculation though.
 

ssun30

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I just found out the RZ300e uses SiC-based inverter on the front eAxle which has not been used on the BZ4X FWD and RZ450e yet. Probably explains why it out-ranges the BZ4X despite being heavier.
 

internalaudit

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The RZ is the only BEV I would consider purchasing used.

update:

Oh the 300e is FWD so definitely a pass to me.
 

internalaudit

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used RZ just doesnt make sense, when i can lease a new $100k eq series for the same price if you know where to look.
For BEVs, used is the way to go for sure. They depreciate faster than ICEVs, which depreciate faster than HEVs.

Depreciation could be as high as 50% over three or four years, probably considering the $7,500 Federal incentive already.

$60K and owning a reliable vehicle is still probably better than spending $60K over four years, with nothing to show on Year 5. That's just me though.
 

Flagship1

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For BEVs, used is the way to go for sure. They depreciate faster than ICEVs, which depreciate faster than HEVs.

Depreciation could be as high as 50% over three or four years, probably considering the $7,500 Federal incentive already.

$60K and owning a reliable vehicle is still probably better than spending $60K over four years, with nothing to show on Year 5. That's just me though.
wait how much is a used rz in your market?