The Gazoo Racing Super Sport WEC hypercar thread

[F1 Silver Arrows]

If Toyota is ever going to take the idea of Lexus as a higher-end brand seriously than cars like this must be badged as Lexus. Period. One of the few things Honda/Acura does right is that the NSX is always an Acura in territories where the brand exists.

Completely different dynamic you're talking about here. This is more than just a image difference that you're talking about with Acura and Honda. This is a legendary racing team who have always achieved the upper echelons of excellence in their engineering and participation in racing. Their blood, sweat, and tears spent developing, racing and doing everything for their WEC program, and this project has ZERO fingerprints on it that belonged to Lexus, hence why this must be a Toyota badged hypercar through and through.

The LFA had a lot of Toyota input too, but literally the majority of development was all Lexus, and they extrapolated ALL of the knowledge that came from Toyota's Formula One program. It rightfully deserved to be a Lexus because a lot of the project was their work (and like I mentioned before, Toyota had a part too, especially the fact that the Formula One team was in fact Toyota, but Lexus is Toyota's luxury arm so all is well here) that was put in to this. Also considering every single bit of work that these amazing engineers, designers, leaders and the entire team put in as a whole in the LFA project for an entire decade or so, and looking at the story of how the LFA project came to be, just made that car just that much more special and legendary in its entirety. This was something that if it wasn't a Lexus, it would feel wrong. It just had to be a Lexus.

This monster is a different story though. It's a Toyota project through and through. I hope Lexus actually fulfills their promise and actually build an amazing car like the LFA every several years. I am anticipating for another one.

 

[TF110]

I think it's a Toyota because the car is associated with Toyota's Le Mans 24 hours wins. Lexus hasn't won the 24hr. It could easily be rebadged but there's no gain for them in that. People associate Toyota with the wins, so the badge will be a Toyota. In the end it doesn't matter what badge it wears because it's all one company. But in terms of association the Toyota name is obviously a no-brainer considering they won.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

In the end it doesn't matter what badge it wears because it's all one company.

Ahh, but it does matter. Many pixels have been sacrificed here on LE in the last 2 years about how the company's emphasis seems to be firmly on Toyota at the expense of Lexus, and this looks a lot like another such instance. The non-race-following public will certainly see it that way.

 

[flexus]

It does matter, but not for the reason you mentioned. Lexus needs to focus on not bullsh*tting their customers and get their act together. Everything is just getting bland and it shouldn't be like this. Racing is what got us this beast of a car, and it wasn't Lexus who did the work here. And you're right about the public seeing it that way, but we also know that they know Lexus hasn't been doing anything monumental compared to other OEM's these days. Rebadging this car would just ruin everything when you look at it in terms of principle. They haven't worked for anything. All they did recently was do the amazing LC and LS and we haven't heard much from these guys in more than 3 years when it comes to aspirational products. It's starting to get irritating when Lexus still is producing the dinosaur LX and GX and not redesigning them. Sales won't last forever. They'll be reduced to nothing and have *throws up* garbage brands like Genesis and irrelevant brands like Acura, Cadillac, and (to a way lesser extent) Lincoln catching up to these guys. BMW and Mercedes-Benz have found a strong footing again, so unless Lexus shocks the world like they did in 1989, they're going to stay in 3rd, or hell maybe 4th or 5th in sales figures.

I cannot agree. Lexus is doing excellent. One of the reason is that rather focusing in the US it is a global brand now. Cadillac, Lincoln, Acura, Genesis will never go past Lexus because no one knows about them outside US. They are not even sold in Europe, Cadillac and Honda Legend are available in Japan but nobody buys them and in China Cadillac is only that really sells. Lexus has gained foothold in Europe (no other non European luxury company has done that), it is considered rival for Toyota and MB in Japan, toe to toe with German 3 in Korea, Russia, CIS countries and Middle-East, establishing brand recognition in Asean with three digit growth and in China EVs and FCEVs (technology that Germans don't have) can really push Lexus sales even higher.

 

[ssun30]

Lexus played no part in the development of the TS050 and this is literally a TS050 with a road car body shell.

The LFA is F1 *inspired* and is a Lexus-run program. The only true F1 technologies used on that vehicle are the full carbon body and the sequential transmission.

The rendering didn't show the use of semi-slick tyres. I understand neither Toyota nor Lexus has ever built a performance car with semi slicks to maintain daily drivability. But I don't think any regular road tyre can handle the immense torque of this beast, and it's not like the owners will go grocery shopping in it. Plus the aero will absolutely rip those treads and make the car harder to drive on tracks.

I'm very interested in whether they will create an unrestricted TS050 after 2019. The TS050 is superior to the 919 in both powertrain and chassis and an unrestricted version will be even crazier than the 919 Evo.

 

[TF110]

Lexus played no part in the development of the TS050 and this is literally a TS050 with a road car body shell.

The LFA is F1 *inspired* and is a Lexus-run program. The only true F1 technologies used on that vehicle are the full carbon body and the sequential transmission.

The rendering didn't show the use of semi-slick tyres. I understand neither Toyota nor Lexus has ever built a performance car with semi slicks to maintain daily drivability. But I don't think any regular road tyre can handle the immense torque of this beast, and it's not like the owners will go grocery shopping in it. Plus the aero will absolutely rip those treads and make the car harder to drive on tracks.

I'm very interested in whether they will create an unrestricted TS050 after 2019. The TS050 is superior to the 919 in both powertrain and chassis and an unrestricted version will be even crazier than the 919 Evo.

Well, there's a story on motorsport.com where they talk to the TS050 program leader, Rob Leupen, and he says that they are interested in doing what Porsche did with the 919 EVO and going after lap records. He said he feels the TS050 unleashed would be faster than the 919 EVO and the Nurburgring lap record might be on the cards if they can get a budget for it- https://www.motorsport.com/wec/news/toyota-porsche-nurburgring-record/4509806/

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

Lexus played no part in the development of the TS050 and this is literally a TS050 with a road car body shell.

The LFA is F1 *inspired* and is a Lexus-run program. The only true F1 technologies used on that vehicle are the full carbon body and the sequential transmission.

The rendering didn't show the use of semi-slick tyres. I understand neither Toyota nor Lexus has ever built a performance car with semi slicks to maintain daily drivability. But I don't think any regular road tyre can handle the immense torque of this beast, and it's not like the owners will go grocery shopping in it. Plus the aero will absolutely rip those treads and make the car harder to drive on tracks.

I'm very interested in whether they will create an unrestricted TS050 after 2019. The TS050 is superior to the 919 in both powertrain and chassis and an unrestricted version will be even crazier than the 919 Evo.

You have literally said everything I have been saying forever ago and for a long time. Nailed it.

The TS050 was an order of magnitude better than the 919 and was very close to the EVO in terms of raw performance. An unrestricted TS050 would be the fastest car of all time this side of a jet car or an unrestricted F1 car period (those are the only two things that would probably go faster than an unrestricted TS050). A normal TS050 in race trim plays with Formula One cars of recent days. That's how insane it is. And ALL OF THAT amazing development, had ZERO involvement from Lexus.

I do have to disagree with one thing though. The 1LR-GUE V10 was heavily derived from Toyota's Formula One program. That's a glaring fact that you omitted, and there were a host of other Formula One technologies that were included as well. But I have to say we both nailed on the fact that this is totally and completely a Toyota product and it must stay that way, and everything else we both discussed about haha.

 

[ssun30]

You have literally said everything I have been saying forever ago and for a long time. Nailed it.

The TS050 was an order of magnitude better than the 919 and was very close to the EVO in terms of raw performance. An unrestricted TS050 would be the fastest car of all time this side of a jet car or an unrestricted F1 car period (those are the only two things that would probably go faster than an unrestricted TS050). A normal TS050 in race trim plays with Formula One cars of recent days. That's how insane it is. And ALL OF THAT amazing development, had ZERO involvement from Lexus.

I do have to disagree with one thing though. The 1LR-GUE V10 was heavily derived from Toyota's Formula One program. That's a glaring fact that you omitted, and there were a host of other Formula One technologies that were included as well. But I have to say we both nailed on the fact that this is totally and completely a Toyota product and it must stay that way, and everything else we both discussed about haha.

I didn't know how much F1 tech was included in the 1LR. I did not consider it a F1-derived engine because of the layout (72 degree Vee instead of 90/95 degree Vee in F1).

By 2017 it's clear the 919 is getting dominated by the TS050. Porsche was developing a 2.7L V6 before they pulled out to close the gap (although part of the reason is preparing for F1, which they gave up upon too). They are especially down on the hybrid system which forces them to do exhaust energy recovery. It sounds fancy on paper but the implementation isn't there, while Toyota worked on perfecting KERS and that just works. The chassis of the TS050 is also slightly better. Really crazy how effective the WEC team was despite working with much less budget. It would be such a waste If they didn't unleash this beast and set some records. And the road version deserves a set of good tyres to give the Europeans some lessons.

 

[Will1991]

It will certainly be a lot fun to watch all of those Youtuber's comparing a McLaren/Ferrari/Aston Martin/Porsche to a Toyota. So please Toyota, make sure it's faster than everyone else

Even more being an Hybrid... A Toyota Hybrid as they usually are the pinnacle of anti-motoring according to some "journalists"...

 

[Ian Schmidt]

The TS050 was an order of magnitude better than the 919 and was very close to the EVO in terms of raw performance. An unrestricted TS050 would be the fastest car of all time this side of a jet car or an unrestricted F1 car period (those are the only two things that would probably go faster than an unrestricted TS050). A normal TS050 in race trim plays with Formula One cars of recent days. That's how insane it is. And ALL OF THAT amazing development, had ZERO involvement from Lexus.

I still think it's stupid for branding reasons to call the car a Toyota, but I'm clearly arguing against deeply felt sentiment so I'll bow out.

 

[TF110]

Toyota ran it's regular TS050 close to unrestricted last year during pre-season testing at the WEC Prologue. That took place at Paul Ricard. The timing is here- http://fiawec.alkamelsystems.com/ You go to the 2018-2019 season in the drop down menu and choose Paul Ricard. The top speeds are amazing. 347kmh for the Toyota vs the next best lmp1 at 339kmh. That was with their Le Mans/low downforce package. The high downforce package did ~316kmh. Porsche's 919 EVO did a top speed of 369kmh on the Nurburgring with a much longer straight, DRS system, modified body and aerodynamics, upgraded engine, unrestricted fuel usage, unrestricted hybrid power etc. Toyota gained 5-6 seconds just from allowing their car to run it's powertrain unhindered, that's not even running upgrades to it like the Porsche did. Same engine, same hybrid, same car and all that, just no power restrictions.

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

I didn't know how much F1 tech was included in the 1LR. I did not consider it a F1-derived engine because of the layout (72 degree Vee instead of 90/95 degree Vee in F1).

By 2017 it's clear the 919 is getting dominated by the TS050. Porsche was developing a 2.7L V6 before they pulled out to close the gap (although part of the reason is preparing for F1, which they gave up upon too). They are especially down on the hybrid system which forces them to do exhaust energy recovery. It sounds fancy on paper but the implementation isn't there, while Toyota worked on perfecting KERS and that just works. The chassis of the TS050 is also slightly better. Really crazy how effective the WEC team was despite working with much less budget. It would be such a waste If they didn't unleash this beast and set some records. And the road version deserves a set of good tyres to give the Europeans some lessons.

Ah! I didn't know Porsche was even trying to build a 2.7L V6 in response LOL thanks for that. And yet even if you were to say this fact to others there are idiots out there who keep slagging Toyota's continued participation in the WEC after Porsche left (garbage fangirls LMAO).

I do have to say I remember the 919 sometimes having more agility (sometimes I say), but nothing can replace the feeling of rocketing out of corners with the monster AWD system and the hybrid power unit roaring on the straights onto the next corner. The TS050 is so god damn satisfying.

Anyways you again nailed my exact same sentiments on your other thoughts. This is why I keep saying Toyota needs to enter F1 again. It would make so much damn sense. If anything, Toyota should be the most important manufacturer joining and a lot of people around the world realize that. They have a massive following around the world, they're the most powerful manufacturer in the world, and they have the best hybrid technologies ever that are literally second to none. I suggest Lexus should make an entrance because it would help for the brand, and help their engineering and R&D efforts for newer projects, and keep Toyota responsible for WEC and WRC. Point is, either Toyota needs to make a return to F1 or have Lexus join for the first time.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

Point is, either Toyota needs to make a return to F1 or have Lexus join for the first time.

Both would be even better. Doesn't VAG race cars from multiple divisions?

 

[Joaquin Ruhi]

Point is, either Toyota needs to make a return to F1 or have Lexus join for the first time.

Both would be even better. Doesn't VAG race cars from multiple divisions?

Rumors of a Lexus-branded Formula 1 effort go back as far as 2006.
https://www.autoblog.com/2006/11/06/lexus-f1-easier-than-you-might-think/

A couple of my.IS forum threads from the era (including input from yours truly as jruhi4) contain a number of article links as to why this never came to pass. Several of the arguments put forth back then echo the discussion we've seen here as to whether the GR Super Sport Hypercar should be badged as a Toyota or as a Lexus. Here are the links:

https://www.my.is/threads/lexus-to-race-in-f1-in-2007.295633/

https://www.my.is/threads/f-1-williams-toyota-wont-run-lexus-branding.296941/

The dreamers among us probably hoped for a dual Toyota / Lexus F1 effort that would be something akin to the Red Bull / Toro Rosso situation.

Besides this rumor from 2006, Google searches will also turn up an April Fools' Day 2013 Club Lexus article suggesting a Lexus-branded Toyota return to Formula 1 which went semi-viral when some internet outlets took it seriously. Please disregard those.

Seriously, I think Toyota (and, by extension, Lexus) is done with Formula 1 for good. On the other hand, if Toyota and Lexus decided to branch out beyond their current motorsports participation, I could see them getting into Formula E as a testing ground for their solid-state batteries if their rules could accommodate this.

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

Rumors of a Lexus-branded Formula 1 effort go back as far as 2006.
https://www.autoblog.com/2006/11/06/lexus-f1-easier-than-you-might-think/

A couple of my.IS forum threads from the era (including input from yours truly as jruhi4) contain a number of article links as to why this never came to pass. Several of the arguments put forth back then echo the discussion we've seen here as to whether the GR Super Sport Hypercar should be badged as a Toyota or as a Lexus. Here are the links:

https://www.my.is/threads/lexus-to-race-in-f1-in-2007.295633/

https://www.my.is/threads/f-1-williams-toyota-wont-run-lexus-branding.296941/

The dreamers among us probably hoped for a dual Toyota / Lexus F1 effort that would be something akin to the Red Bull / Toro Rosso situation.

Besides this rumor from 2006, Google searches will also turn up an April Fools' Day 2013 Club Lexus article suggesting a Lexus-branded Toyota return to Formula 1 which went semi-viral when some internet outlets took it seriously. Please disregard those.

Seriously, I think Toyota (and, by extension, Lexus) is done with Formula 1 for good. On the other hand, if Toyota and Lexus decided to branch out beyond their current motorsports participation, I could see them getting into Formula E as a testing ground for their solid-state batteries if their rules could accommodate this.

I remember everyone was going insane when they said Lexus would join F1 for the new 2014 season regulations. But it turned out to be an April Fool's joke. I do believe that they should still make a return. They have righted their wrongs in the manner that they don't move forward in a bullsh*t manner and got rid of that retarded hierarchy system and all of that other political crap in their racing efforts. If they come back with the way they are managing the WEC and WRC, Toyota or Lexus would be a front-running team in F1. Join FE too, it wouldn't hurt to race there and learn about battery technologies that could help with their manufacturing effort. In fact, that is what Toyota want to do with their future vehicles. To be inspired from racing.

 

[Motor]

Same car, right?

 

[Joaquin Ruhi]

Same car, right?

Yes. Thanks for pointing that out. Let me merge the 2 threads on the same subject.

 

[ssun30]

F1 is a mess at the moment. Too much investment and too little return to the point no new manufacturer would join; even a lavish spender like VAG killed the Porsche F1 idea (most probably because the first few years would be embarrassingly uncompetitive). I guess many big players are waiting for FE to grow into a premier level championship.

 

[TF110]

Ah! I didn't know Porsche was even trying to build a 2.7L V6 in response LOL thanks for that. And yet even if you were to say this fact to others there are idiots out there who keep slagging Toyota's continued participation in the WEC after Porsche left (garbage fangirls LMAO).

I do have to say I remember the 919 sometimes having more agility (sometimes I say), but nothing can replace the feeling of rocketing out of corners with the monster AWD system and the hybrid power unit roaring on the straights onto the next corner. The TS050 is so god damn satisfying.

Anyways you again nailed my exact same sentiments on your other thoughts. This is why I keep saying Toyota needs to enter F1 again. It would make so much damn sense. If anything, Toyota should be the most important manufacturer joining and a lot of people around the world realize that. They have a massive following around the world, they're the most powerful manufacturer in the world, and they have the best hybrid technologies ever that are literally second to none. I suggest Lexus should make an entrance because it would help for the brand, and help their engineering and R&D efforts for newer projects, and keep Toyota responsible for WEC and WRC. Point is, either Toyota needs to make a return to F1 or have Lexus join for the first time.

If you followed the season (2017), the lmp1's were only allowed to make two aero packages. Toyota made their high downforce package first and took the wins at the first two races. Porsche developed their high downforce package after Le Mans and that's why they were a little bit faster than Toyota at the Nurburgring GP track and Circuit of the Americas. But Toyota responded and did a little bit more development into the high downforce car and proceeded to demolish the H-D Porsche at Fuji, Shanghai and Bahrain. It's still going strong 3 years from it's redesign, still setting lap records for the category.

The GR Super Sport or Hypersport is a TS050 for the road. Same chassis, engine and hybrid. I think it's going to be a performance monster if they keep the weight down.

 

[Motor]