The Future of the IS Thread

[spwolf]

Can an EV version be well executed on the same GA-L setup as ICE models? Maybe mid-cycle, as I imagine they have their hands tied up with Mirai and LS plans, but if a CTe is a candidate, then why not? Some have the argument that you need a strictly EV platform not shared with ICE vehicles, to make a credible product. I don't believe that entirely.

They just announced that C-HR will be their first EV in China... it will be presented by the end of the year. They also plan to have 10 EVs on sale in China by 2020, so we will know a lot more about them soon enough. I assume that most will be based on existing vehicles and that TNGA has been engineered for EVs from start.


Also, from Engine presentations about upcoming "TNGA" engines, we know we are missing few interesting engines:

So we are going to soon get 2 engines stronger than 3.5tt and one hybrid stronger than 300h. Also new 2.5t is below 3.5tt (rumors from Japan)

 

[ssun30]

Seeing how many young buyers in China want an IS for the looks but couldn't afford one, I would say having an entry-level IS260 at a lower price point should definitely be on their radar. This is followed by a 300h which should be available globally (instead of just EU). They should skip the 300 (too little power) and go straight to a 350 with 2.5T. Then an IS-F with THS-R; stopping taking about it Lexus, show it. An EV would become the icing on the cake, as priorities should go to UX/NX/RX/CT(rumored) EVs.

The IS could coexist with ES at similar price points and not get eaten alive. The IS has always been aimed at a much younger (close to 20 years) demographics, unlike GS which more or less shares the same age group as the ES. With the GS now gone, the IS has an even bigger mission of carrying the sporty sedan image. It definitely needs a more aggressive look than the ES. If the ES is a smaller brother of the LS, the IS should be a smaller brother of the LC. Its price range will also need to expand, going downwards to scoop up more volume and upwards to fill holes left by the death of GS.

The IS is their gateway car. The success of the ES is unsustainable without a supply of young buyers that will upgrade in the future (although traditionally ES has been feeding on Camry buyers that want to go upmarket). BBA knows this very well; that's why they offer a very complete lineup of 3-series, C-class, and A4. The next IS needs to have a very strong debut and lineup if they want to survive in the ever shrinking sedan market.

 

[Ch’Pok]

New Forum member here. Carmaker1 I’ve been following your posts on various forums and appreciate your willingness to share knowledge.
I had been looking forward to replacing my G35 with the V38 Q50, but since that car just got Ghosned, I’m very interested in the next IS.
Most important want: stick to the GA-L rear wheel drive platform! If one is going to pay extra for a luxury/sport sedan, it should be the real deal, not a gussied-up Camry or Altima. Toyota doesn’t seem to have the management or financial issues of Nissan, so hopefully the IS won’t suffer the same fate as the Q50.
Other wants: make F Sport a real competitor to M Sport, Red Sport, etc.; not just visual and suspension upgrades. The days of making a 200hp entry level car, 300hp top “normal” car, and a 400-450hp bonkers car to fight the M3 are over. Bonkers is already 500-ish hp, and we’re talking about three years from now. There’s a hole in the IS lineup now.
Styling should be more aggressive than the LS or ES, but too much. A sport sedan should get its looks from good DNA (restart RWD platform rant here). To me the 2IS nailed it.
Apple CarPlay and Android Auto. Smartphones are no longer a fad, and automakers with few exceptions, are bad at making UIs. People are gonna use their phones, automakers should concentrate on how to safely integrate them, not replace them.
My two cents, FWIW.

 

[RAL]

Welcome to LE @Ch'Pok

 

[Gecko]

Anyway, back to 4IS. Like the next RX, the 4IS is in development for GA-L.

Wait, what? RX is going RWD?

 

[Bluesuprarcf52]

The next generation Lexus IS has got to be a home run. The IS has to debut on the all new GA-L platform and brand new dynamic engines. The IS has to have a fresh and aggressive new exterior and please Lexus make the triple L premium Led headlights available in the USA at least. As a matter of fact make them available right now for the current generation. The interior also more luxury looking but still sporty at the same time. The driving dynamics have to be amazing. Lexus needs a new four cylinder engine with 270 plus hp.This has to be available in both rwd and AWD. Lexus also bring over a hybrid engine over. You will just gain even more customers if you do. Next a turbo six cylinder engine is a must for the IS. This engine should have 350 plus hp. Lastly please Lexus bring back the ISF. The ISF should have 450 plus hp or close to 500 hp.

 

[Bluesuprarcf52]

Lexus should also make a all new entry level two coupe and convertible. Just called it the RC or renamed it the SC. Have the same engine options as the new IS. Make the new RCF or SCF a true m4 killer.

 

[Carmaker1]

Wait, what? RX is going RWD?

Well, not exactly. I just was referring to company developments, since everything else has been redesigned or killed off. The RX is 760X, but at times I question the intense similarity of the LF-1 Limitless to the RX and if upscaling the RX family to GA-L isn't a bad idea against X5 and GLE? Then NX on GA-K?

650b is the actual program code for that LF1

The next generation Lexus IS has got to be a home run. The IS has to debut on the all new GA-L platform and brand new dynamic engines. The IS has to have a fresh and aggressive new exterior and please Lexus make the triple L premium Led headlights available in the USA at least.

Actually, the IS might look more like the LS+ concept, so Triple LED implementation might not be necessity with such a design.

Lexus should also make a all new entry level two coupe and convertible. Just called it the RC or renamed it the SC. Have the same engine options as the new IS. Make the new RCF or SCF a true m4 killer.

While RC nameplate could easily remain, instead of a new IS parallel coupe (IC?), an SC just isn't going to happen again in this market, when the LC exists.

 

[Bluesuprarcf52]

Well, not exactly. I just was referring to company developments, since everything else has been redesigned or killed off. The RX is 760X, but at times I question the intense similarity of the LF-1 Limitless to the RX and if upscaling the RX family to GA-L isn't a bad idea against X5 and GLE? Then NX on GA-K?

650b is the actual program code for that LF1



Actually, the IS might look more like the LS+ concept, so Triple LED implementation might not be necessity with such a design.



While RC nameplate could easily remain, instead of a new IS parallel coupe (IC?), an SC just isn't going to happen again in this market, when the LC exists.

Well, not exactly. I just was referring to company developments, since everything else has been redesigned or killed off. The RX is 760X, but at times I question the intense similarity of the LF-1 Limitless to the RX and if upscaling the RX family to GA-L isn't a bad idea against X5 and GLE? Then NX on GA-K?

650b is the actual program code for that LF1
What name do you think the Lf-1 production might be call?


Actually, the IS might look more like the LS+ concept, so Triple LED implementation might not be necessity with such a design.



While RC nameplate could easily remain, instead of a new IS parallel coupe (IC?), an SC just isn't going to happen again in this market, when the LC exists.

Thanks. I was just saying if Lexus doesn't want to reuse the RC nameplate then they should reused the SC nameplate. Lexus better make a entry level coupe again. Do you think there is a good chance that a third coupe might join the lineup,maybe more as Porsche 911 competitor.

 

[Bluesuprarcf52]

Well, not exactly. I just was referring to company developments, since everything else has been redesigned or killed off. The RX is 760X, but at times I question the intense similarity of the LF-1 Limitless to the RX and if upscaling the RX family to GA-L isn't a bad idea against X5 and GLE? Then NX on GA-K?

650b is the actual program code for that LF1



Actually, the IS might look more like the LS+ concept, so Triple LED implementation might not be necessity with such a design.



While RC nameplate could easily remain, instead of a new IS parallel coupe (IC?), an SC just isn't going to happen again in this market, when the LC exists.

Lastly when do you think the LCF and LSF might come out? Second gen LFA?

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

Maybe I'm thinking a little too simplistic here, can't they slap in the TTV6 from the LS into the IS as an IS350 successor and voila? Then a V8 for the IS-F again? Upgrade the turbo 4-cylinder to have better NVH and a slight increase in power/torque? Lastly implanting the genius multistage hybrid system for a hybrid model?

 

[Carmaker1]

Lastly when do you think the LCF and LSF might come out? Second gen LFA?

2020 most likely.

Maybe I'm thinking a little too simplistic here, can't they slap in the TTV6 from the LS into the IS as an IS350 successor and voila? Then a V8 for the IS-F again? Upgrade the turbo 4-cylinder to have better NVH and a slight increase in power/torque? Lastly implanting the genius multistage hybrid system for a hybrid model?

An IS 450 makes perfect sense to me. IS 350 should NOT be the range topper anymore. Either a detuned V35A-FTS or a 3.0L Dynamic Force TTV6. ISF V8? Nah. It will be V35A-FTS or similar with added improvements.

New Forum member here. Carmaker1 I’ve been following your posts on various forums and appreciate your willingness to share knowledge.
I had been looking forward to replacing my G35 with the V38 Q50, but since that car just got Ghosned, I’m very interested in the next IS.
Most important want: stick to the GA-L rear wheel drive platform! If one is going to pay extra for a luxury/sport sedan, it should be the real deal, not a gussied-up Camry or Altima. Toyota doesn’t seem to have the management or financial issues of Nissan, so hopefully the IS won’t suffer the same fate as the Q50.
Other wants: make F Sport a real competitor to M Sport, Red Sport, etc.; not just visual and suspension upgrades. The days of making a 200hp entry level car, 300hp top “normal” car, and a 400-450hp bonkers car to fight the M3 are over. Bonkers is already 500-ish hp, and we’re talking about three years from now. There’s a hole in the IS lineup now.
Styling should be more aggressive than the LS or ES, but too much. A sport sedan should get its looks from good DNA (restart RWD platform rant here). To me the 2IS nailed it.
Apple CarPlay and Android Auto. Smartphones are no longer a fad, and automakers with few exceptions, are bad at making UIs. People are gonna use their phones, automakers should concentrate on how to safely integrate them, not replace them.
My two cents, FWIW.

Well, thank you. I appreciate that my man. Here is an early look at a proposal by designer C. Lee from 2016 for it, at Design Centre Atsugi in 2016. Things have wrapped up now, with major changes along the way. This was during ideation sketching.

Lexus desperately needs to reinvigorate and expand the IS line. First and foremost bring back the IS F, second bring the IS hybrid to North America and last bring back the IS Sportcross wagon.

IS 300 rwd
IS 300 awd
IS 300h
IS 350 sedan
IS 350 Sportcross wagon (competes with Audi A4 Allroad wagon)
IS F

I think:

IS 300 RWD Dynamic Force Turbo 4 Cylinder RWD
IS 300 I4 T AWD
IS 300h RWD/AWD THS
IS 350 RWD 2GR-FKS (LS 350 318hp)
IS 350 AWD
IS 450 RWD Twin-Turbo 3.0L V6
IS 450 AWD TTV6
IS F RWD High Output V35A-FTS 3.5L V6?

IC Coupe (replaces RC?)
IC Cabrio

IS SportCross in 300 and 450 grades.

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

Oooooh @Carmaker1 lovin it when you keep sharing such juicy info. Even if it may be hypothetical! Appreciate everything you do!

 

[ssun30]

I think:

IS 300 RWD Dynamic Force Turbo 4 Cylinder RWD
IS 300 I4 T AWD
IS 300h RWD/AWD THS
IS 350 RWD 2GR-FKS (LS 350 318hp)
IS 350 AWD
IS 450 RWD Twin-Turbo 3.0L V6
IS 450 AWD TTV6
IS F RWD High Output V35A-FTS 3.5L V6?

IC Coupe (replaces RC?)
IC Cabrio

IS SportCross in 300 and 450 grades.

Well I think it makes sense to skip 300 directly to 350. With 260 and 300h at the bottom, a 300 won't make much sense in EU or China, while it will be underpowered in the U.S. when competitors move up to the 200kW/270hp class by then. Also with a 2019 debut, would they even bother with the 2GR-FKS, an engine near EOL?

A 450 will only happen if they want a mirror image of the 43AMG-Lite/63AMG duo strategy. So it will become a V35A-FTS (doesn't even need to be detuned, competitors will be in the 300kW/400hp class in 2020) and a V35A-FTS hybrid duo?

One thing they could take advantage of is the compactness of the V35, which allows a front-mid layout. This leaves enough space to put a pair of torque-vectoring motors in front of the front axle, making the next IS-F AWD with electric boost.

 

[Levi]

It is difficult to know what the IS should be if we don't have a full image of the Lexus model portfolio. Before sportscars could be had in all sizes and prices, now only in big size with a lot of power and high price - prestige (GT86 and MX5 exception). Same thing might be (is?) happening with sedans. Ironically Mercedes, BMW and Audi make A Class Sedan, 1 Series Sedan and A3 Sedan, but we should remember China is the driver here. For how long?

 

[Joaquin Ruhi]

>>Stretch to current-gen Mark X dimensions to make it more practical

If lexus plans to upsize the IS, that's fine, as long as they keep the weight as low as possible.

I've always been a small-car guy and opted to keep my 2nd-gen IS as opposed to replacing it with the longer 3rd-gen. Nonetheless, I see the Chinese writing on the wall. In the West, the Lexus IS is no longer the rear-legroom runt of its class, a position taken over by the Cadillac ATS and the Jaguar XE. But ATS and XE either already offer stretched "L' versions in China or will do so shortly. Lexus IS, on the other hand, doggedly sticks to a single shorter wheelbase.

The (TN)GA-L RWD architecture has, thus far, been released in 3 wheelbase lengths:
2870mm (113") for Lexus LC
2920mm (115") for Toyota Crown Concept / upcoming 15th-gen Crown
3125 mm (123") for 5th-gen Lexus LS

Conventional wisdom would've suggested a continuation of the Toyota Crown / Lexus GS platform relationship dating back to the original Toyota Aristo. With the GS now out of the picture, though, will the 4IS step up to the Crown platform-mate role? I certainly think so. Coincidentally (or not?), the Lexus LC sits on a 50mm shorter wheelbase than Crown15, just like 3IS sits on a 50mm shorter wheelbase version of the New N platform than 4GS. Yet, between the 7ES and 5LS growth spurts and the premium the Chinese market places on rear legroom, I don't think a 4IS on the shorter LC wheelbase would make sense or be particularly competitive.

And what will happen to the third Mark X? Would it be a third RWD sibling to 4IS and Crown15? Or a reworked FWD Avalon5?

 

[Ch’Pok]

2020 most likely.



An IS 450 makes perfect sense to me. IS 350 should NOT be the range topper anymore. Either a detuned V35A-FTS or a 3.0L Dynamic Force TTV6. ISF V8? Nah. It will be V35A-FTS or similar with added improvements.



Well, thank you. I appreciate that my man. Here is an early look at a proposal by designer C. Lee from 2016 for it, at Design Centre Atsugi in 2016. Things have wrapped up now, with major changes along the way. This was during ideation sketching.

View attachment 2845 View attachment 2846 View attachment 2847 View attachment 2848 View attachment 2849



I think:

IS 300 RWD Dynamic Force Turbo 4 Cylinder RWD
IS 300 I4 T AWD
IS 300h RWD/AWD THS
IS 350 RWD 2GR-FKS (LS 350 318hp)
IS 350 AWD
IS 450 RWD Twin-Turbo 3.0L V6
IS 450 AWD TTV6
IS F RWD High Output V35A-FTS 3.5L V6?

IC Coupe (replaces RC?)
IC Cabrio

IS SportCross in 300 and 450 grades.

Makes me sad for what could have been for the Q50. Lexus has an opportunity to poach some customers...

 

[spwolf]

2020 most likely.



An IS 450 makes perfect sense to me. IS 350 should NOT be the range topper anymore. Either a detuned V35A-FTS or a 3.0L Dynamic Force TTV6. ISF V8? Nah. It will be V35A-FTS or similar with added improvements.



Well, thank you. I appreciate that my man. Here is an early look at a proposal by designer C. Lee from 2016 for it, at Design Centre Atsugi in 2016. Things have wrapped up now, with major changes along the way. This was during ideation sketching.

View attachment 2845 View attachment 2846 View attachment 2847 View attachment 2848 View attachment 2849



I think:

IS 300 RWD Dynamic Force Turbo 4 Cylinder RWD
IS 300 I4 T AWD
IS 300h RWD/AWD THS
IS 350 RWD 2GR-FKS (LS 350 318hp)
IS 350 AWD
IS 450 RWD Twin-Turbo 3.0L V6
IS 450 AWD TTV6
IS F RWD High Output V35A-FTS 3.5L V6?

IC Coupe (replaces RC?)
IC Cabrio

IS SportCross in 300 and 450 grades.

When it comes to engines, we have this powertrain official presentation from TMC... I doubt there will be other new engines aside from this.

I keep quoting this pic, but I think everyone needs to see it over and over again:

So lets assume:

- IS450 - 3.5ltt - this is only one thats easy.
- IS300 - massaged 2.0t AR engine existing.

- IS300h or IS350h or IS450h? There is engine missing between 300h and 450h in the pic above. What is it and how does it fit? There is confirmed info that next gen Highlander will have 4cly hybrid. This cant be just standard 300h with 208-215hp - Highlander is too big for that in the USA. So it has to be some more powerful engine but it will still be 4cly. This will then likely go into IS and of course RX.

- IS350 - standard V6 for TNGA, base engine for USA.
and/or
- IS350 - new 2.5t that replaces V6 engine in other markets? 2.5t has been rumored for a while. I dont see US market preferring it over V6 though.

 

[ssun30]

So lets assume:
- IS300 - massaged 2.0t AR engine existing.

Would they keep using 8AR-FTS for new TNGA vehicles launched after 2019? Surely it will live on some legacy models, but I doubt the IS will be using it. An IS300 would not go low enough in China (IS260 is a more appropriate entry-level model), nor high enough in US (competition will move to the 200kW/280hp class which is better covered by the 2.5T).

- IS300h or IS350h or IS450h? There is engine missing between 300h and 450h in the pic above. What is it and how does it fit? There is confirmed info that next gen Highlander will have 4cly hybrid. This cant be just standard 300h with 208-215hp - Highlander is too big for that in the USA. So it has to be some more powerful engine but it will still be 4cly. This will then likely go into IS and of course RX.

I feel the hybrid system between the 300h and 500h is the 450h. The FKS-based 2.5 hybrid with high output battery (for the time being let's call it 350h) that could appear on the Highlander should be considered a variant of the 300h. The 450h could be a turbo hybrid utilizing either 2.0T or 2.5T ICE. Offering a 350h and 450h is consistent with their twin hybrid strategy. A more affordable RX350h is something they certainly need in Europe.

Going back to the IS, I doubt EU will care about the 300h losing 13hp if price is reduced (and actual power at the wheels should be comparable due to efficiency improvements). Then a 450h in the 225-250kW class could be the flagship non-F model, should they not choose to do an F-lite/F strategy.

- IS350 - standard V6 for TNGA, base engine for USA.

Like the 8AR-FTS, the 2GR-FKS will be near EOL in 2019 and should only be used on legacy models. Launching yet another IS350 with 310hp is asking for embarrassment.

 

[ssun30]

I've always been a small-car guy and opted to keep my 2nd-gen IS as opposed to replacing it with the longer 3rd-gen. Nonetheless, I see the Chinese writing on the wall. In the West, the Lexus IS is no longer the rear-legroom runt of its class, a position taken over by the Cadillac ATS and the Jaguar XE. But ATS and XE either already offer stretched "L' versions in China or will do so shortly. Lexus IS, on the other hand, doggedly sticks to a single shorter wheelbase.

The (TN)GA-L RWD architecture has, thus far, been released in 3 wheelbase lengths:
2870mm (113") for Lexus LC
2920mm (115") for Toyota Crown Concept / upcoming 15th-gen Crown
3125 mm (123") for 5th-gen Lexus LS

Conventional wisdom would've suggested a continuation of the Toyota Crown / Lexus GS platform relationship dating back to the original Toyota Aristo. With the GS now out of the picture, though, will the 4IS step up to the Crown platform-mate role? I certainly think so. Coincidentally (or not?), the Lexus LC sits on a 50mm shorter wheelbase than Crown15, just like 3IS sits on a 50mm shorter wheelbase version of the New N platform than 4GS. Yet, between the 7ES and 5LS growth spurts and the premium the Chinese market places on rear legroom, I don't think a 4IS on the shorter LC wheelbase would make sense or be particularly competitive.

Nice analysis here. A recurring theme with TNGA Lexus is a reduction of space efficiency in exchange for styling and driving dynamics. Making the LS500 with FMR layout is a wonderful decision and they should do that for the IS as well. It seems that enlarging the IS to Mark X size will add little to no cabin space.

Another recurring theme is sizing their base model to match LWB variants of their German competitors so they don't need a stretch in China (although it's debatable for the LS). But I doubt they need to do the same on the IS. A common misconception about China's obsession with LWB is that everyone cares about legroom, but the real number they care is overall length. The C-Class L/3-series L/A4L/ATS-L actually target two different demographics: young middle-class with limited wealth and small business owners who want an affordable company car. It's the latter group that really need that extra leg room, but Lexus has that covered with the ES200. Therefore the IS only needs to target young people who only need the rear to be "not cramped". The LC wheel base should be sufficient to have usable space in the rear, they could do a lot to make this work.

Actually, with a length of 4800mm and a wheel base of 2870mm, this hypothetical new IS will be as large as previous generations of Aristo/GS. It will not be a small car.