The Future of the IS Thread

[Trexus]

i hope the 4IS addresses the weight issues mentioned here, and the lag of the 2 liter turbo engine i think they should offer these models:
IS300 RWD
IS300 AWD (w/ refined 2 liter engine)
IS350/400 RWD (TTV6)
IS350/400 AWD (TTV6)
IS-F (TTV6 ~450-500 HP)

I agree Lexus needs to expand the IS line to include an IS F to compete with the M3, also bring the IS 300h to North America as well and bring back the IS Sportcross (wagon).

IS 300h
IS 300 RWD
IS 300 AWD
IS 350/400 RWD
IS 350/400 AWD
IS F
IS Sportcross (wagon)
IS F Sportcross

 

[meth.ix]

I agree Lexus needs to expand the IS line to include an IS F to compete with the M3, also bring the IS 300h to North America as well and bring back the IS Sportcross (wagon).

IS 300h
IS 300 RWD
IS 300 AWD
IS 350/400 RWD
IS 350/400 AWD
IS F
IS Sportcross (wagon)
IS F Sportcross

Even an IS SportCross in America is pushing it, let alone an F variant, sure it'd make lots of the M3 Wagon fans happy, but it just makes no sense financially.

 

[krew]

I know I am not going to make many friends here with my comment.... but, I think Lexus needs to get the IS replacement out as fast as possible. The current car is not competitive with the A4, 3 series, C Class etc.... all the magazines call this out. Even consumer reports is not a fan. Car and Driver has the IS as the 10th best car in the class. This is one of the reasons why the sales numbers are decreasing, along with the illogical shift to SUVs. Waiting until 2020 seems like a mistake. Let's see what the sales numbers are the next couple of years with this model....

actually, i think a lot of us including me as an IS owner, agree with your statement. every other car in this segment had significant power bumps which the IS needs as well, and sales will decrease more and more until they push the new model out

The only reason I don't want to see a new IS sooner is because of my current lease -- only reason whatsoever. Honestly, I think the product pipeline is full until 2020.

 

[Bulldog 1]

I've been driving an IS since 2008 and the lack of HP has always been an issue. As is the gas mileage. But I'm keeping my current 2015 to term for the first time because I refuse to let go of my Matador Red Mica and my RWD normally aspirated V6. The move to the turbo 4 and the exaggerated F Sport front end design are deal breakers for me.
I've been swayed towards two possibilities in the future, when my lease matures.
I positively love driving my 2015 ES350, and have always longed for any F Sport model. If they build it, V6, Matador Red Mica- I'm most likely going there.
If not, a recent rental experience with an Audi Q5 followed by a test drive of the newly redesigned and dominant 2018 Q5 would get the nod.
Pretty much bored with Lexus after 11 years and 8 cars. Recent interactions at the dealership in sales, service and body shop as well as my Lexus Enform being down for almost three months earlier this year and over three weeks up to a few days ago for unknown reasons requiring five follow up phone calls to get it functional point to severe slippage to an American car brand level.
My unwavering loyalty to the IS just isn't there anymore.

 

[Levi]

I honestly think Sedans/Wagons are dead, and with SUVs becoming Crossovers, the new car era tat has already started is a Crossover (at least until driverless pods for urban districts) in various sized and design elements. Remember what cars looked like before?

The first car was the carriage, a box on wheels.

The first cars with steam engines and ICE do not look very different, except for the lack of horses.

First cars then added mudguards above the wheels, then mudguards, became more integral to the cars' design. Later mudguards were no more visible and were completely integrated to into the car's design. Cars had metal bumpers, then plastic bumpers, then bumpers integrated with the whole car and became part of its design/shape. First cars had separate trunks/boots, then they got more flowing with the car until they completely intergrated and become a 3-box sedan. I am just mentioning some examples.

Now with electric drivetrains, and SUVs not really being off-road vehicles, they do not have to be boxy, and the layout changes completely. The new era of cars resembles this:

Lexus LF-UX and LF-1 show that also. As I already mentioned, the classical sedan has to redefine itself to succeed.

 

[ssun30]

I honestly think Sedans/Wagons are dead, and with SUVs becoming Crossovers, the new car era tat has already started is a Crossover (at least until driverless pods for urban districts) in various sized and design elements.

As I already mentioned, the classical sedan has to redefine itself to succeed.

In a more general sense, variety is the result of a lack of optimization. The history of mankind has always been a history of optimization. Just like natural selection, inefficient artificial creations are eliminated or marginalized.

There is ONLY ONE efficient way to make cars, so as we become better and better at optimizing car designs, ineffcient designs get eliminated by the free market. This is already evident from the reduction of ICE variety: V4, I5, V10, V16, H6, and rotaries are heading to their graves; I6, V8, and V12 will follow a decade later, because the ONLY efficient ICE layout is I4 (I3 and V6 will have their niche, but that does not mean they are more efficient).

Similarly, sedans and wagons are doomed because crossovers are objectively more efficient as daily commuters. Minivans will stay because they are objectively the best people mover; pick-up trucks will stay because they are objectively the best cargo hauler. Sedan will basically be competing against coupe (also dying) for a tiny slice of the sportscar market, because apparently there will be more and more performance crossovers.

In the past we have all kinds of smartphone designs also with different OS, network, and internal components. Today all smartphones look the same, use the same component, and are compatible with all types of network. This is because that's the ONLY efficient way to build smartphones. All passenger aircraft are twin-engine, subsonic, and single decked, because that's the ONLY efficient way to build a passenger aircraft.

We as a civilization is becoming better and better at optimizing things, so variety will become a thing of the past.

 

[Levi]

Indeed. Bad new for those that can't fit in. I'm yet there with the two old smartphones, Nokia N8 and N9, the N8 with a camera unrivaled till today and the N9 with an OS unrivaled till today.

And yet with all this, I have ideas, costly but doable, to make Crossovers even better, but unfortunately most people accept mediocrity.

 

[renyeo]

IMO, It’s improbable Lexus will can the GS to cause the brand’s lineup to be without a proper RWD 5-series/E-Class challenger, much like how the IS has been the designated 3-series fighter for Lexus.

 

[Joaquin Ruhi]

IMO, It’s improbable Lexus will can the GS to cause the brand’s lineup to be without a proper RWD 5-series/E-Class challenger, much like how the IS has been the designated 3-series fighter for Lexus.

In theory, you're absolutely right.

In practice, however, Lexus has been down this road before. The current (4th-gen) GS was on the verge of cancellation but received an 11-th hour reprieve and was built. Similar rumors are now making the rounds about 5GS, and, given the precipitous drops in sedan sales numbers in general, may well happen this time.

Per current rumors, Lexus wouldn't really abandon the mid-size luxury sedan segment. Instead, the ES would broaden its model lineup to add enthusiast-oriented AWD and F-Sport variants to its current comfort-oriented FWD base models. In other words, such a 7ES would be more akin to the FWD-centric Audi A6 (which goes from base FWD to Quattro to S6 to all-out RS6) than to the RWD-centric BMW 5-Series and Mercedes E-Class.

 

[Trexus]

IMO, It’s improbable Lexus will can the GS to cause the brand’s lineup to be without a proper RWD 5-series/E-Class challenger, much like how the IS has been the designated 3-series fighter for Lexus.

I agree as well. Lexus needs to keep the GS to compete with the 5 Series and E Class just as the IS competes the 3 Series and C Class.

However the ES does so well sales wise. The ES is Lexus highest selling sedan. So in practice just like Joaquin mentioned maybe Lexus will elevate the ES as a midsize sedan to compete with the 5 Series, E Class and A6.

It's funny because when Lexus arrived in 1990 the ES was the entry level sedan.

ES 250
GS 300
LS 400

Even when the IS arrived, Lexus positioned the ES as entry level comfort/plush sedan and the IS was entry level sporty sedan.

ES 300/330/IS 300
GS 300/400/430
LS 400/430

Now the ES has moved up.

IS 200t/300/350
GS 350/ES 350/300h
LS 460/500/500h

In the end IMO and I agree with renyeo Lexus should keep the GS, increase variants to go head to head with the 5 Series and E Class.

GS 300
GS 300h
GS 350
GS 500 (V35A-FTS)
GS 500h (8GR-FXS)
GS F (TTV8)

 

[renyeo]

It’s funny customers are buying more ESes because they are purportedly to be cheaper than the GS. Does this means the Lexus brand has been competing in the lower pricepoint market attracting buyer demographics that are different from the German cars customers?

Anyhow, it’d be great if Lexus could sell a new RWD ES (built on the GA-L platform no less) for less money than the GS going forward.

 

[mikeavelli]

It’s funny customers are buying more ESes because they are purportedly to be cheaper than the GS. Does this means the Lexus brand has been competing in the lower pricepoint market attracting buyer demographics that are different from the German cars customers?

Anyhow, it’d be great if Lexus could sell a new RWD ES (built on the GA-L platform no less) for less money than the GS going forward.

Trexus has soon good history noted here. I still have my 1992 ES 300 manual. It was originally marketed and pitted as a sporty luxury sedan believe it or not. Won quite a few comparos or at least fared very well. That said the market didn't buy it for that, they bought it since it was quite, comfy, etc. The next generation was also marketed a bit as sporty but it was obvious the 3 series buyer was not looking at the ES at this point. The ES became the baby LS, fluffy and great in everything but sport.

It was at this time the IS 200 (1997 I believe) was introduced in Europe and as the Altezza in Japan. Lexus realized they needed a true RWD car to battle the 3 series. In Europe it got a petrol I-6 and in Japan a high revving 4 cylinder. But we didn't get it until 2000 as a 2001 IS 300 with the 2JZ from the Supra. It fared well in comparisons but the engine just wasn't that fast unless you boosted it. Sales were okay but never amazing and dwindled fast. But Lexus saw they had a strong niche and a buyer that wanted an IS 300 and not an ES 300. These were people who otherwise probably wouldn't drive a Lexus or only a GS at the time. The ES at the time was a full blown luxury car, not 1 iota tuned to sport.

Fast forward to the 3rd gen which was beautiful but drove less sporty. Sales were great. At this time the ES was a full blown fluff mobile. Sales of the ES were great. The GS debuted but if you remember it had carryover engines which were not a hit in comparisons with the V-8. It also drove less sporty to the competition than the previous GS did. It was cramped to the ES. The IS was faster. The GS then was put in a weird spot by its own brand. Then the IS F came.

Lexus hit it out the park with the current IS which is arguably the best driving car in class. The interior is almost a throwback to the IS 200/300/Altezza. Interior room is better.

The GS languished for a long time. The new generation also is arguably the best driving car in class but most of the public hasn't taken notice. And I'm sorry but salespeople continue to push the ES not the GS. The ES is an easier sale.

The ES arguably is the sweeter looking car, especailly the rear 3/4 view. Its larger inside. Cheaper. The interior is not close to the GS but most I guess don't see the value in a smaller, sportier Lexus that costs more.

As you can see more than ever the GS has been squeezed by the IS and ES. To complicate matters, the RX is now sportier looking with an interior nearly on par with the GS. My wife is the perfect example of having and liking her GS F-Sport but never considered the GS F or any other GS when she saw the RX F-Sport.

Sigh

Trying to wrap this long post back to the IS, I expect the next generation to mix more luxury inside and maybe try to grab some GS buyers who won't consider an ES.

 

[Carmaker1]

Please forgive me mods, but I want to start a thread on the Next Generation IS and see what people want from such a car. Luckily for you all, unlike the 2022 Infiniti Q50, it will remain somewhat traditional RWD, with AWD available.

A resurrection of IS-C or maybe even IC as in "IC 300h" might be a possibility for a 2-door RC replacement. That is speculation, not yet fact though based on poor RC sales and GS hiatus. It is likely the GS will suffer the same fate of the SC and only get a replacement under a different nameplate down the road.

Anyway, back to 4IS. Like the next RX, the 4IS is in development for GA-L. Next IS will likely debut a new design language, seen with the LS+ concept and likely intended for 5GS, inspired by triangular LC headlights. Bear in mind the GS-F rendering was made 1.5 years before the LS+. Internally, Lexus has some designs that echo this styling ethos. ES and UX may not have it yet, but by 2020 something will look like them.








Please be realistic with what you think Lexus should aim to offer on this car. I say this, as a 550 horsepower IS-F isn't a reality. Thanks.

 

[ssun30]

>>Stretch to current-gen Mark X dimensions to make it more practical.
>>Have a pricing structure that makes sense so it doesn't get eaten alive by the ES again.
>>EV variant.
>>Hybrid drivetrain for IS-F. They have been talking about THS-R on road vehicle for years, now they need to deliver.

 

[Carmaker1]

>>Stretch to current-gen Mark X dimensions to make it more practical.
>>Have a pricing structure that makes sense so it doesn't get eaten alive by the ES again.
>>EV variant.
>>Hybrid drivetrain for IS-F. They have been talking about THS-R on road vehicle for years, now they need to deliver.

Exactly, all those bullets is what I think they can do to make it a better proposition. Would a THSR (Toyota Hybrid System Racing) be the way to go forward for a lower end F model? If the LC and LS might get a 4.0 litre V8, would a biturbo 3.5 litre V6 be mated possibly to a 175-200KW+ electric motor for the IS? The current 8GR-FKS doesn't benefit from what is used on the V35A-FTS as the gas powerplant.

Can an EV version be well executed on the same GA-L setup as ICE models? Maybe mid-cycle, as I imagine they have their hands tied up with Mirai and LS plans, but if a CTe is a candidate, then why not? Some have the argument that you need a strictly EV platform not shared with ICE vehicles, to make a credible product. I don't believe that entirely.

In terms of price structure, I don't see how they can manage to undercut the ES that keeps being rumoured to start at the same pricepoint. Being more expensive than the ES might make more sense, if they have to upsize it and make up for no midlevel GS.

 

[mikeavelli]

My focus is on a return on a IS F. I'm sure the IS will get bigger, sportier more luxurious etc. Will the IS F return? I am leaning toward it.

Also will the USA market finally get some IS hybrids? And the RC hybrid (I guess next IS coupe, no idea).

 

[sl0519]

Exactly, all those bullets is what I think they can do to make it a better proposition. Would a THSR (Toyota Hybrid System Racing) be the way to go forward for a lower end F model? If the LC and LS might get a 4.0 litre V8, would a biturbo 3.5 litre V6 be mated possibly to a 175-200KW+ electric motor for the IS? The current 8GR-FKS doesn't benefit from what is used on the V35A-FTS as the gas powerplant.

Can an EV version be well executed on the same GA-L setup as ICE models? Maybe mid-cycle, as I imagine they have their hands tied up with Mirai and LS plans, but if a CTe is a candidate, then why not? Some have the argument that you need a strictly EV platform not shared with ICE vehicles, to make a credible product. I don't believe that entirely.

In terms of price structure, I don't see how they can manage to undercut the ES that keeps being rumoured to start at the same pricepoint. Being more expensive than the ES might make more sense, if they have to upsize it and make up for no midlevel GS.

If lexus plans to upsize the IS, that's fine, as long as they keep the weight as low as possible. The current platform is just very heavy compare to competition.
As for GS, if they reinvent into something like a 4 door LC, that would be freaking awesome. Plus they said to themselves that tradition four door is dying and the only option is to make it more emotional / sportier.

 

[Trexus]

Lexus desperately needs to reinvigorate and expand the IS line. First and foremost bring back the IS F, second bring the IS hybrid to North America and last bring back the IS Sportcross wagon.

IS 300 rwd
IS 300 awd
IS 300h
IS 350 sedan
IS 350 Sportcross wagon (competes with Audi A4 Allroad wagon)
IS F

 

[James]

Please just give us an F again! On release too not years later!

 

[spwolf]

They likely wont do phevs, unless really required by government incentives... so far what we have read they will go directly to EVs, where required.