The Future of the IS Thread

[maiaramdan]

Honestly I don't know what to say but for 2.5T to be competitor to ZeGermans 2.0T something is just wrong, I am not able to digest that

Supposedly Toyota/Lexus always have a good surprises in their first year cycle engine, we will see what will they do

 

[Gecko]

For engines, I have a feeling that Lexus is going to remain living in a vacuum, stay stubborn and be sure their "unique" approach is the best. I am expecting:

• 2.0T - a new DF engine, maybe around 260hp.
• 2.4T - new DF engine, up level option and replacement for the 3.5L V6, maybe around 330hp
• 3.5TT V6 - IS F
• Slot a hybrid in there somewhere, too.

Of course if introduced 4 years ago, the engines above would only be "competitive" in their segments but Lexus will surely be resolute in explaining that their research and development work made sure they have a superior solution. They won't.

Another point that @corradoMR2 hit on, and one that I've made before with regard to the LS: You can say what you want about product, but these extremely long lifecycles are sending people elsewhere and they simply don't come back. Most luxury buyers lease, and they don't want to lease the same car two or even three times. Think about an IS buyer since 2006... you'd have the same V6 engine family for the last ~14 years. Those people all left and went to the Germans or elsewhere. Same for the 10 year wait for an LS. The minimalist, cosmetic refreshes that change the interior shape of a headlight and tail light are not fooling anyone. Even the most pedestrian of car shoppers can tell it's the exact same thing with a different bow, and they go elsewhere. BBA are changing trims, special editions, engines, transmissions, colors, wheels AND the small cosmetic details which keeps their lease cycle alive.

If Lexus doesn't start hitting grand slams in terms of product and punctuality, they are going to slip from Tier 2 to Tier 3 and who knows what after that.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

I'm really sorry, but if you're going from a Kia stinger which you consider to be great quality, to then considering a Model 3 makes me wonder why you ever went with a Lexus in the first place?

Drive a recent Hyundai/Kia, this isn't like 1997 where Tiburons broke down driving off the dealer lot. Current Hyundai/Kia is at least as good as late 80s Toyota was, when they launched Lexus. I think Genesis will be formidable if they can manage to sort out the dealer situation.

I ain't gonna beat the Tesla dead horse. If going stupid fast is your primary thing, there are worse cars you can get. But at that point I don't understand ever owning any Lexus.

 

[CRSKTN]

Drive a recent Hyundai/Kia, this isn't like 1997 where Tiburons broke down driving off the dealer lot. Current Hyundai/Kia is at least as good as late 80s Toyota was, when they launched Lexus. I think Genesis will be formidable if they can manage to sort out the dealer situation.

I ain't gonna beat the Tesla dead horse. If going stupid fast is your primary thing, there are worse cars you can get. But at that point I don't understand ever owning any Lexus.

I have spent time in them, i'm not talking breaking down every 50 feet. They are fine vehicles for people whose needs and budget they fit, i'm sure. Consumers are fortunate.

That said, there is some middle ground between that and somehow addressing every build quality issue overnight and learning to produce high end vehicles. Again, i guess it's a matter of what your personal bar is for that stuff. I wasn't at all impressed by what I've seen, although i guess for some the value proposition might be hard to overlook depending on priorities.

I want this brand to do more stuff along the lines of the LY, go full on Japanese Luxury.

 

[TJ_Lexpert]

I doubt the IS F uses the LS V-6, its just a slug off the line and is not a F type engine. I like that rendering.

The LS v-6 is not a slug. Remember that IS is significantly lighter and smaller than the LS. So if it puts out the same numbers 416hp and 442torq then it will be pretty quick. The only thing I'm worried about is that 10spd auto. They should have just kept it at the 8spd. It was bad enough trying to get through the 8 gears on the original IS-F.

 

[Gecko]

The LS v-6 is not a slug. Remember that IS is significantly lighter and smaller than the LS. So if it puts out the same numbers 416hp and 442torq then it will be pretty quick.

As Lexus is still trying to comprehend, "slug" is relative. Among other high performance sedans like the M3 and C63, 0-60 in ~4.5 would indeed be sluggish, let alone the fact those numbers are not competitive at all on paper.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

And as AMG and M are going to comprehend, being regulated out of existence sucks. They're high-performancing all of the things because this is probably the last complete generation of ICE, they don't have a solid grasp on electrification, and they're gonna need some reputation to live off of for a few years.

Meanwhile every German car I see on the road is still the base engine, and it's not like people here can't afford the upgrade.

 

[corradoMR2]

I'm really sorry, but if you're going from a Kia stinger which you consider to be great quality, to then considering a Model 3 makes me wonder why you ever went with a Lexus in the first place?

I've spent time with both of those vehicles. I was not even remotely close to impressed by the build quality, sound system, etc of the Tesla lineup, especially the model 3. The Kia stinger is like any other product trying to be what it's not, which isn't to say it's a bad car. I'm sure it's a great value for some people who want that combination of offerings, but having spent time in Genesis vehicles and the stinger... it's only skin deep.

The moment you start actually interacting with it, I guess unless you're not that particular about stuff, the illusion disappears for me.

No need to apologize. It's your opinion vs my ownership experience. ✌ I have owned 12 Lexus vehicles that includes the CT, HS, NX, UX, the sweet RC F, and multiple generations of the RX and IS. Add in the Stinger of late and I can provide credible feedback.
I love Lexus build quality and its what drew me in, and still today it is better than most including the Stinger though it is only incrementally better now. Lexus needs the next market/product differentiator and both build quality and styling are not going to be enough.

Badge aside, the Stinger is a formidable product which I won't get into in this thread as this is not the topic of discussion. I also won't get into the Model 3 discussion though I agree, its build quality is questionable at best... yet I ordered one. This is the second non-Lexus product in a row I will own which is a shocker to those that know me! The message from my actions in relation to the IS (this thread) is pretty clear and hopefully Lexus listens as I do care and want Lexus to succeed! Echoing @Gecko 's prior comments, even loyalists like myself can only hang on so much to LONG generations of existing Lexus cars when the competition is offering so much more, more quickly. I hope the 4IS will not be a generation behind when it comes out but instead packs tech AND performance (besides build quality and styling) to stay competitive. I am skeptical but still hopeful I may be in one in two years or so...

 

[internalaudit]

^ Any tips on how not to lose so much on the trade ins? You seem to change cars every 1-3 years.

I'm sure you will be happy with the Model 3 performance and may yours be one of those most reliable keepsakes.

 

[GNS]

even loyalists like myself can only hang on so much to LONG generations of existing Lexus cars when the competition is offering so much more, more quickly.

My family has one Lexus ('19 RX350) but I have never owned one. Based on my short experience with the brand and the RX350, I'd love to buy a Lexus for sure. Lexus would also love to get me in as a customer for life.

But I can't buy something that doesn't exist, namely a mid-range AWD sedan that competes against the C43, S4, and 340i, not to mention the G70, CT5-V, Q50 and TLX Type-S. Loyalists like yourself move on when the line up is left to stagnate, and potential newcomers to the brand are not given anything enticing enough to pull them in.

New fascias, sleeker styling and marketing don't work on potential new buyers like myself. I look at the powertrain first and it's still the same engine (more or less) from 2006, same ancient 6 speed (AWD), same 6 second 0 - 60 (mph). I like the reliability, the fact that it's made in Japan, the build quality and the looks, not to mention the badge prestige. But that's not enough to get me to buy one brand new.

So I'm hoping that Lexus will do good on the 4IS and not half-ass it just because SUVs/CUVs are ruling the top spot in the sales chart, which would be inexcusable.

 

[JustinDelp]

I certainly hope this rendering is far off from what the new IS will be. This is boring. I certainly hope Lexus isn't backpedaling on its ultra modern design language you see in the RX. I'm hearing new IS for 2020, with the launch being this fall and actual dealer product arriving in the spring. Fingers crossed. Maybe it will launch as a 2021 model? But sooner rather than later would be good. Also, LFS incentives on the IS have been crazy good all year, so I'm imagining Lexus is pushing what's left of the current gen IS out so we can get a new model for next year.

 

[corradoMR2]

^ Any tips on how not to lose so much on the trade ins? You seem to change cars every 1-3 years.

Keep the car as pristine as possible and low mileage, but it's still a pretty big hit in depreciation the first two years of ownership, cost is + - the equivalent of a 2-year lease.

 

[ssun30]

And as AMG and M are going to comprehend, being regulated out of existence sucks. They're high-performancing all of the things because this is probably the last complete generation of ICE, they don't have a solid grasp on electrification, and they're gonna need some reputation to live off of for a few years.

Meanwhile every German car I see on the road is still the base engine, and it's not like people here can't afford the upgrade.

Which is why I am concerned that Lexus is going to introduce ICE-only performance models when these are being regulated out of existence. At the same time they haven't even demonstrated a concept of a road variant of THS-R they have promised for half a decade or so. Only thing on the horizon is a $1 Million hyper car they need for WEC homologation, that basically just uses components straight from the race car.

Electrification is the great equalizer. Polestar is building a 600hp monster as we speak; I can already buy a 542hp hybrid SUV that goes 50mi on battery power only for less than $60k. Lexus can build a 600hp hybrid ES-F/NX-F/RX-F TODAY; they already have the tech and components for them. But I bet it's going to take a decade before we see these.

But yes the Germans have more to worry when their mild hybrid system doesn't work, can't get P2 hybrids right, and have way worse production hell than Tesla with BEVs.

 

[maiaramdan]

@ssun30 , the major part of Tesla success until now is PANASONIC and I see it like the hidden warrior, it's their own design and own amazing batteries in comparison to Huawei, Xiaomi, LG-Chem, Samsung yes those brands sells more but they can't hold a candle to PANASONIC batteries, which are still used in a lot of places even the Sony near to vanish Xperia mobile brand

 

[mikeavelli]

Not only is the Model 3 selling but I'm in a few Tesla FB groups. These guys and gals are super hardcore. They are modifying the cars and follow everything Tesla. Ironically its less of an appliance to owners than many of these cars/brands pushing their cars as sporty.

Its really amazing to see it happen so fast. People want electric cars. Hopefully Lexus provides one with the next IS.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

I'm really enjoying a lot of the aftermarket BEV conversions - it's popular to do to OG VW Beetles, for instance. People who know how slow those were under OEM power are always shocked to see one that can smoke the tires.

 

[maiaramdan]

Honestly, I am at your total opposite camp
I love the ICE, the sound, the vibrations, everything,

I know and I confess that I know that the electric is the future either it's electric motor, solar, or even fuel-cell hybrid, I again know that very well, but for me I will be in the ICE camp until the last ICE car produced or until my death who ever comes first

 

[internalaudit]

I only like BEVs because they will cost a third (of fuel cost) to operate and will likely offer a lower total cost of ownership. If it's going to cost more, then what's the point of adoption haha.

I don't think the human body really likes high frequency vibration but maybe the studies have changed since I graduated without making use of Kinesiology degree back in 1997.

 

[ssun30]

Many people I know who converted to BEV and PHEV say they won't go back because it's hard to go back. That instant torque completely changes your expectations. From my experience, once I get used to that, most turbocharged ICEs feel unusable (of course, the BMW B48 being the exception). If you want a true ICE experience might as well go for natural aspiration (good reason to buy a GS-F or LC500 now).

If you are not a purist, hybrids could still work. But the car can feel like suffering from a split-personality disorder sometimes, especially when battery SoC becomes low. This is very noticeable on P2 hybrids, while power-split hybrids don't suffer as much.

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

Many people I know who converted to BEV and PHEV say they won't go back because it's hard to go back. That instant torque completely changes your expectations. From my experience, once I get used to that, most turbocharged ICEs feel unusable (of course, the BMW B48 being the exception). If you want a true ICE experience might as well go for natural aspiration (good reason to buy a GS-F or LC500 now).

If you are not a purist, hybrids could still work. But the car can feel like suffering from a split-personality disorder sometimes, especially when battery SoC becomes low. This is very noticeable on P2 hybrids, while power-split hybrids don't suffer as much.

You say this, but I do think that Porsche is a perfect example that invalidates that specific point you made that I pointed out in bold. If you take a look at their legendary 918 Spyder hypercar and their amazing Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid sedan, these are two examples of cars that Porsche integrated a really efficient (quite sporty too) and technologically advanced battery technology with their great ICE motors. The result is that everyone has raved about these cars (the only negatives I can think of are how the instant torque can feel unnatural, at best interesting regenerative brakes, and weight). Looking at these two cars (and the brand), gives me a lot of hope about what is to come in the future. I still believe that electrification is good, but ICE's still have a future as well and are way more viable than battery power-plants.

When we have engines that are getting record-breaking levels of thermal and engine efficiency (thanks to modern technology) and put out a lot of power at the same time, and along with the electric motors not only do you have great performance, you also have solid gas mileage, great integration of the battery systems to the ICE that feels quite natural (except for maybe the instant torque and the regenerative brakes as I mentioned earlier), you also have a power unit that can be developed upon even more and we can be the best of electrification and normal gas powered engines at the same time (naturally both power units being able to cancel out each other's negatives except for the fact that both of these combined means a lot of weight, for now at least......). Toyota/Lexus are starting to do this now as well. They're starting to get a lot more performance oriented with their hybrids, while also having the best gas mileage and all the other positives that hybrids give us. I am surprised as to why Lexus (or Toyota) didn't do this earlier. Still though, kudos to companies like Porsche and Honda (or Acura for North Americans, and this will be probably one of the few times that I will ever give recognition to them) in the case of the NSX, for really showing what hybrids are capable of.

I have to say you're completely right and I do agree with your other points,. Though I must also say that it is impossible for me to have everything full EV (PHEV's are fine), I just can't LOL.