The Future of the IS Thread

[CIF]

If Lexus starts using old BMW parts like Infiniti is using old Mercedes stuff, I will be fully "out" on this brand.

Right there with you. The new 'Supra' is a big enough disappointment personally as it is. If Akio Toyoda actually ends up being bold enough to allow a BMW engine into a Lexus, then no thanks, I will be fully out on Lexus as well. Even now, as is, Lexus is barely the brand I grew up with and came to love. Mostly gone are the Lexus models that had a pillow soft ride on almost any road surface, and a serene driving experience all of which lasted even into very high mileage figures. Lexus these days is mainly focused on design (nothing wrong with that), and on performance or sport (with less focus on pure luxury). I see nothing wrong with sport or performance for a luxury brand, assuming that core, regular models are kept untouched in terms of pure luxury and other existing attributes that owners love and that performance and sport is added only onto other special trims or models. This is not exactly what has happened with Lexus in the last number of years.

 

[ssun30]

Hey guys, lets get this back to the 4th gen IS.

Thanks.

Still, I firmly believe Krew should take down the article from the home page. Just think about how much negative press it generates considering other car media do use this site as a source for Lexus news. This just adds fuel to the fire of that obnoxious BMW Supra debate.

In fact, I would suggest as far as not posting any unsubstantiated rumor, positive or negative, on the home page. For forum discussion it's fine, but having false information always reduces quality of this site.

Lexus is actually one of the few companies where that stuff *could've* happened overnight if the bean counters had allowed it. Say it with me: "Three Jay Zee".

Since we live in an imperfect bean-countery world it of course makes sense to go to BMW for an I6. It's not like FCA is gonna start making Slant Sixes again (even though they should). I do think it's a valid concern that such an IS would have virtually nothing in common with either the ES or LS. No Safety System 2.0, no free CarPlay and Android Auto, and so on.

Actually, after seeing the Supra development hell happening, the bean counters will realize that such a collaboration will not reduce cost and result in another development hell. Just imagine somebody in Aichi came up with this idea of 'let's build an IS with Inline-6 with BMW that is going to sell, like, maybe 400 units a month?' during a meeting. The bean counters will shut down the idea immediately.

They have all of the powertrain sans one engine (the 2.5T) ready for the entire IS lineup TODAY. They don't need anything new from anybody else.

The Supra happened anyway because Akio demanded that. I'm sure a lot of power struggles were happening with lots of people in the corporate wanting to kill that program from the beginning.

 

[GNS]

They have all of the powertrain sans one engine (the 2.5T) ready for the entire IS lineup TODAY. They don't need anything new from anybody else.

This is exactly my point. As far as I know, TNGA is a framework that was designed to be modular, to help share parts between cars, and to help reduce the amount of guesswork and R&D required to get things to work. Pick a wheelbase, pick a seat height, pick an engine layout etc. and the decision trees get pruned further and further until you end up with a platform that is ready to go. I am almost certain that the 4IS will be developed on that TNGA framework, so it makes more sense to stick with what was developed and validated.

 

[Gecko]

While I see the point, don't forget this website is a business and such articles generate a lot of clicks, traffic and visits. Those things generate money

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

Toyota and Lexus have reached a new dawn with the TNGA architecture which has skyrocketed the what was pretty damn good handling to something else. I agree with @ssun30 that we have everything we need. The monster TTV8 has rumoured to be completed, we have an excellent TTV6 which we can bring to the mid-range IS since it is fit for a small sports sedan. We got good hybrid engines and the 2.4T/2.5T should be an excellent base engine when you consider horsepower/L. Assuming it makes 120-125 horsepower/L (a la Lexus' 3.5TT) you got a really solid engine. Also don't forget we have better drivetrains (AWD systems specifically) coming soon. Infotainment systems are getting better, Toyota/Lexus finally won the battle against Apple and Android for ensuring secure systems in their cars. Design has become so much better and they evolved the L-Finesse design language to a tee. Electric powertrains can soon be merged to the amazing TNGA platform. We really have all the ingredients to fire back up. We have no excuse this time around. We need another 2006 to happen again.

 

[flexus]

Still, I firmly believe Krew should take down the article from the home page. Just think about how much negative press it generates considering other car media do use this site as a source for Lexus news. This just adds fuel to the fire of that obnoxious BMW Supra debate.

In fact, I would suggest as far as not posting any unsubstantiated rumor, positive or negative, on the home page. For forum discussion it's fine, but having false information always reduces quality of this site.

 

[joepac]

 

[Tragic Bronson]

If this rumor is true, then people not caring is exactly what Lexus would be hoping for. And this isn't to single you out, I'm roughly feel the same way.

The twisted path that Lexus/Toyota engine development is a tough pill to swallow. Reliable engines may take time to test and build, but this is getting ridiculous.

Perhaps Lexus is just targeting BMW/Mercedes/Audi owners with the next IS, not legacy owners whose priorities are long-term ownership. These types of buyers would most likely be leasing, and they'll rinse and repeat in 3 years. Compact CUVs have usurped sedans for popularity (NX>IS sales), no offense, but many of them women who'd care more about utility than performance, which seems to be more of a 'guy' thing.

 

[mikeavelli]

If its reliable and if we can tune it, I'm all for an I-6 coming back from BMW.

 

[Tragic Bronson]

If its reliable and if we can tune it, I'm all for an I-6 coming back from BMW.

Bring back some Jigga under the hood...

 

[LexiF]

For those saying performance is more a guys thing I disagree! My partner told me she wants a Maserati GranCabrio! While I am eagerly waiting for the Lexus LCC. I know lots of women that like performance and sticking there foot down but anyway moving on...I believe the new IS will do very well and that lots of people will buy it with the better line up of engines and the refined styling. Lexus using BMW engines? No way, it won’t happen and BMW have made sure of that. (which by all means they should be protecting their own interests like Lexus would) I think though there’s many people leaving the IS as the decider wether to keep with Lexus or not. We all want a true F car back for the IS and a 340i competitor (let alone luxury in all the models) and as my guys have said it is on the table is it going to be too late? Will the performance from Lexus be aimed at an old version and be in the background to the new varients from the Germans? What about the Italians? Will it be a fight between them with us trailing? Only time will tell and (only in my opinion) with Alfa bringing some amazing cars to the line up and using Ferrari technology in sedans and CUV’s how you going to compete with 220hp combined hybrids? I used to love Lexus and have convinced many people to own one and yet I might be walking away (hypocrite I know).

If the IS looks like the rendering or better, it gets better hybrids and competitive petrol varients, have more options on aero packs, Carbon parts, technology, different suspension options etc. Then could be a winner! But this is a lot to ask from one model and I’am afraid we are expecting too much.

If they don’t bring out the LCC then I guess I’ll be looking to Maserati and the Italians for the future but will always have respect for the Lexus brand!

 

[Rob Grieveson]

Where is this collaboration with BMW going? Are we looking at a takeover by Toyota or liaison like the a Renault Nissan where in fact Renault hold a controlling interest or is it simply a friendly temp deal? Unlikely I would think. Imo Bmw whilst good cars do not have the longevity of Toyota/Lexus range. Confusing!

 

[isanatori]

My impression is that you don't care at all about Toyota! Mr. Akio Toyoda has been endlessly underscoring that, Toyota is fighting for survival.

I believe the following :
Mr. Akio Toyoda says that, Toyota must get transformed into a mobility company. From now on TMC will develop sustainable mobility solutions only! Anything else will get outsourced.

Mr. Akio Toyoda loves cars. If he didn't love, he wouldn't bother developing these projects. Even though fans will get disappointed, he couldn't assign more resources.

 

[joepac]

After reading this article: https://www.clublexus.com/how-tos/s...-with-porsche-in-dependability-ranking-559176

I highly doubt BMW or any other carmaker puts the amount of OCD into developing and building their engines like Lexus. As much as I want a faster IS, I prefer it to remain a Lexus in every sense of the brand.

 

[meth.ix]

BMW just revealed their new M340i with a 3.0 liter turbo I6 (the only 6-cylinder in the new 3-Series lineup.

I brought this up mainly because of the fact that it makes 382 hp. I think Lexus should ditch the IS 350 and replace it with an IS 400 F-Sport to compete with the mid-performance luxury sedans that are one level below full performance models. I'm talking about the BMW M___, Mercedes-AMG 43 and Audi S_ models, which have significant performance upgrades over the stock vehicles without reaching the insane levels of the full M_, 45/63/65 and RS_ models.

I'm pretty sure that most IS customers go for the IS 300 because they don't feel the need to pay more for a more powerful engine. The customers in the market for a more powerful engine would find the IS 350 to not be powerful enough, so the IS 350 is in a bad spot right now IMO. I think the solution is to replace is with an IS 400 which could be a slightly detuned version of the LS 500s 3.5 liter V6 or a brand new turbo V6 engine producing at least 350 hp. It should be only offered with F-Sport (the other IS models shouldn't have an option since F-Sport would now be a legitimate performance upgrade) in the same way the there is no 340i, just M340i or no C430, just C43. Even Infiniti has the Q50S Red Sport making 400 hp. This makes sense because all the buyers who felt that the IS 350 was underpowered most likely have more enthusiasm for driving than the average IS buyer. So yes, this would make F-Sport an actual mid-performance upgrade instead of a mostly aesthetic package on Lexus vehicles.

My ideal IS lineup (lowest to highest in price):
IS 300 (2.0 liter turbo I4 - 241 hp)
IS 400 F-Sport (3.0-3.5 liter turbo V6? - 350+ hp)
IS F (3.5 liter twin-turbo V6/4.0 liter twin turbo V8? 475+ hp)

Compared to the BMW and Mercedes competing lineups as of right now:
330i (2.0 liter turbo I4 - 255 hp)
M340i (3.0 liter turbo I6 - 382 hp)
M3 (most likely 3.o liter twin turbo I6 - 450+ hp)

C 300 (2.0 liter turbo I4 - 255 hp)
C 43 (3.0 liter twin turbo V6 - 385)
C 63/C63 S (4.0 liter twin turbo V8 - 469/503 hp)

As you can see, this would allow Lexus to be more competitive with other brands because they would have a direct competitor to more than just the base 2.0 liter turbo engine models. Currently, people looking for a small luxury car with a more powerful engine would overlook Lexus because they don't even have a more powerful engine as an option. Therefore they would go directly to the Germans and look at a C 43 or S4.

And if Lexus does this thing with the F-Sport performance upgrades, then other models would also have to drop the visual-enhancing options on lower-spec engines and make proper F-Sport models for certain models like the GS. Something like a GS 500 F-Sport to fit in between the GS 350 and GS F to compete with the M550i, E 43 and S6. An F-Sport wouldn't really make sense on the LS or LC since most buyers would be able to afford a full LS F or LC F if they are willing to pay more for even more performance.

I know that Lexus will probably never do this, but I can hope, right?

 

[GNS]

This hypothetical IS400 F-Sport is exactly the model I'm looking for out of Lexus. Same price range as the M340i / S4 / C43, more powerful than the current IS350 but one or two steps below a real F model / M3 / M4 / RS5 / C63.

Just look at the competition. Lowly Acura is finally going with a turbo V6 with the upcoming TLX Type-S, Infiniti has had a 400hp Q50 and Q60 Red Sport for a couple of years now, and Genesis has stepped in with the G70 and the 3.3L twin turbo V6. I refuse to believe that all of these companies, especially the Germans, don't know what they're doing. I also refuse to believe that Lexus isn't watching the competition closely.

Also, to add to your comment about people overlooking Lexus and going to the C43 etc., these tend to be people who know what they want out of a car. They have already done their research and decided that an old naturally aspirated V6 just isn't going to cut it for them. The Lexus salesman can talk about omotenashi, tea ceremonies, one handed origami-folding takumis all they want, but pretty words won't magically change a naturally aspirated V6 into the powerplants found under the hood of the S4 or C43.

 

[ssun30]

One of the problems I find with all of your 'hypothetical lineups' is ignoring Lexus as a value brand compared to BBA. Lexus has historically offered more engine power for the same price, NOT LESS. It's just that their engine options don't go far up so Lexus couldn't compete at the high end.

Has anyone considered the possibility that Lexus will not offer the 2.0t 300 at all in NA? The IS350 is already priced similar to 2.0t competition. So it's entirely possible the entry-level gas option will be the 2.5t, with the 300h option to complete the low end.

And why they have to detune the V35A-FTS to compete against the M340/C43/S4 is completely beyond me. Why should they cripple their own product's competitiveness? There is zero cost saving to do that. This makes no sense at all.

 

[internalaudit]

Just give us a reasonably priced BEV AWD IS by 2023 Lexus/Toyota and I'll be sure to pick one up.

 

[Gecko]

One of the problems I find with all of your 'hypothetical lineups' is ignoring Lexus as a value brand compared to BBA. Lexus has historically offered more engine power for the same price, NOT LESS. It's just that their engine options don't go far up so Lexus couldn't compete at the high end.

Has anyone considered the possibility that Lexus will not offer the 2.0t 300 at all in NA? The IS350 is already priced similar to 2.0t competition. So it's entirely possible the entry-level gas option will be the 2.5t, with the 300h option to complete the low end.

And why they have to detune the V35A-FTS to compete against the M340/C43/S4 is completely beyond me. Why should they cripple their own product's competitiveness? There is zero cost saving to do that. This makes no sense at all.

Agree. 2.4/2.5L base engine would be a good differentiator, and in markets with displacement tax, they will probably sell 300h anyway. 2.4/2.5L I4 would give them a leg up on competitor's 2.0Ts, and then you have 3.5L TT as the uplevel option... and to your point... 416hp is basically just at parity with C43/340i.

 

[MichaelL]

Just get the new IS here as soon as possible! Current one is dead, uncompetitive all around, design, tech, engines, etc...