The Future of the IS Thread

[James]

Unless they have revised the agreement one of the conditions for BMW to supply engines to pedestrian Toyota was them not be used in any Lexus.

That makes a lot of sense. I mean it would be like us teaching the Germans how to have reliable cars!

 

[Airplane]

Why would Lexus use BMW's turbo I6 when they will most likely "dynamic force" the V6 from the Camry, Avalon and ES?
If the ISF will have the LS TTV6, why not just decrease the power and put it in the IS? Or why use their own TTV6 in the ISF if Lexus can just use BMW's I6 and "rebadge" the M3?
The reason why the Supra share so many things with BMW is because TNGA was not designed with the Supra in mind so to collaborate was the cheapest way to make it happen, not because TMC really absolutely loves BMW's parts. The Supra is also assembled alongside the Z4 and share so many parts, which I would assume is part of the deal, so how will Lexus assemble the IS then? A Lexus with BMW engines and parts assembled in a non Toyota factory with non Toyota quality control and without their Takumis that they have so many pride in?

Honestly this magazine is full of S***, anyone can make any speculation at this point because there is no new V8s from Lexus at the moment. I bet they will say the LF-1 will come with BMW's I6 as a standard, the LC500H refresh might as well have BMW's engine since BMW will share some of TMC's hybrid technology. Better yet, BMW all of Lexus's 350 models including the RX and mess up their reputation.

 

[GNS]

I'm reminded of what Tetsuya Tada said about the Supra collaboration effort between BMW and Toyota engineers. He literally said that BMW engineers could not believe the amount and depth of testing that Toyota did on some of the parts, and that he had concerns that BMW was spending too much time and money on design and not enough on the other technical details that are just as important. He basically implied that BMW doesn't test or validate their work very well, and I believe it.

I've read an in-depth analysis of the B58 and that thing will be a nightmare after the warranty is done. The timing chain is on the back of the engine right against the firewall, and you just know that the plastic tensioners are going to let go at some point. The turbo has TWO pumps, you know, so you can have double the amount of parts to replace. There are two ways for the wastegate actuator to function (electrically actuated, vacuum actuated). It has VANOS tech, which I'm sure is super duper reliable. It has a dedicated heat management module thanks to the closed deck block.

It's basically a race engine literally crammed into a sedan's engine bay and made to work, no sh*ts given about long term reliability. No thanks, you can keep that trash where it belongs, in the service bay of BMW dealerships.

 

[Will1991]

My daily driver is a 20 year old Toyota with 235.000km, doing on average 2.000 km per month, and I do really feel what’s Toyota reliability. For me, any car is reliable while new (almost all), but it’s a lot harder to maintain this reliability long term! I end up passing on highway quite frequently a lot younger broken cars.
I’m waiting for a Toyota/Lexus BEV to replace my car exactly because of this.

 

[krew]

I would prefer a Lexus engine but hell don’t care that much. Make a quicker top IS that’s below the F that can be AWD for us northern climaters so we can get it and not worry as much. In the high 4s would be a great 0-60

If this rumor is true, then people not caring is exactly what Lexus would be hoping for. And this isn't to single you out, I'm roughly feel the same way.

The twisted path that Lexus/Toyota engine development is a tough pill to swallow. Reliable engines may take time to test and build, but this is getting ridiculous.

 

[James]

If this rumor is true, then people not caring is exactly what Lexus would be hoping for. And this isn't to single you out, I'm roughly feel the same way.

The twisted path that Lexus/Toyota engine development is a tough pill to swallow. Reliable engines may take time to test and build, but this is getting ridiculous.

You can single me out if you want lol I am a die hard fan of Lexus. It's my wife first, my pet children lol, and then my Lexus in my life. I got in a "fight" okay more a discussion with my father in law last night about my cheap Japanese cars compared to his almighty Germans. He says that our engines are weak, doors don't close with a crisp, and we use cheap materials in our cars. Now just to put this in some context he has a Q7, S4, A5, and a Mercedes SLS AMG, so some extremely amazing cars. His wife has an Z4 so another German. A few things and maybe off topic a little in this post but I have taken his Q7, S4, and A5 to the Audi dealer for him. They give me rentals with stickers in their cars saying you are not allowed to drive this rental more than 50 miles a day. First off, this is crazy to me if I had only one Audi. He has 3! He should be able to take the car wherever the hell he wants. My parents have Lexus and they have taken trips on the weekend with the rental because of my tennis tournaments back in the day or to visit me now or whatever and they don't care at all. Second, he is a pretty solid doctor that has multiple offices away from each other, is he not suppose to go to work?
The A5 he bought his son has 90k on it maybe 100k miles and they are already talking like oh he is going to need a new car this one is having too many issues...it has 100k miles on it! I traded my Camry in before 100k to get the best value for the car (and I really wanted a GS !) but my car was running great. I didn't turn it in because I needed to or was having problems I just wanted to own a Lexus. How are nice cars that are 50k and up breaking at 100,000 miles and having lots of problems. Is a bigger engine or "better materials" worth the hassle or the cost? I don't think so and maybe I am in the minority here, which is fine.
Last point on the German service...I have taken my boss's like 2017 S class to benz because the S fell off on the back name plate and after I paid for a new one they said here you to put it on yourself...this is $100,000 car you aren't going to do it for me? I was like what kind of service is this for one of your higher end clients? I don't every time I have been in a German place I never get treated like I do at Lexus and maybe that's the loyalty I have for them.

Anyway long post Krew, I think my main point is I think a lot of us do want faster Lexus sedans and SUV's, but I will be honest I prefer the reliability and the feeling I get when walking into Lexus than a bigger engine and a car that won't last past the warranty before crap happens to it. If Lexus can get the quicker engines down, the Germans will only have the idea of owning a German is better than a Lexus left...

 

[internalaudit]

Going to show your post James to my daughter in her first year of university.

I told her we'd get a nice enough car if she successfully completes her co-op work terms and graduate from her program.

I gave her some ideas, which was probably my mistake but I did emphasize BEV and not any German ICEV-- either a BEV A3 derivative or a BEV Macan lol. This was a few weeks ago.

Earlier this week, I told her I will likely settle for a 4IS hybrid, hopefully with eAWD. She scoffed and said they are so ugly.

I told her I'm okay with the German cars as long as she will pay for the servicing and she seemed okay with the idea. This is someone who had just one or two years of part-time work before university and doesn't have any savings.

In the end, it's my wife and my money so I will decide for the best of the household's finances. It's absurd for German car makers to use a lot of high quality plastic on their engines that are difficult to replace when the time comes. Crazy engineering and planned obsolescence if you ask me.

 

[James]

Going to show your post James to my daughter in her first year of university.

I told her we'd get a nice enough car if she successfully completes her co-op work terms and graduate from her program.

I gave her some ideas, which was probably my mistake but I did emphasize BEV and not any German ICEV-- either a BEV A3 derivative or a BEV Macan lol. This was a few weeks ago.

Earlier this week, I told her I will likely settle for a 4IS hybrid, hopefully with eAWD. She scoffed and said they are so ugly.

I told her I'm okay with the German cars as long as she will pay for the servicing and she seemed okay with the idea. This is someone who had just one or two years of part-time work before university and doesn't have any savings.

In the end, it's my wife and my money so I will decide for the best of the household's finances. It's absurd for German car makers to use a lot of high quality plastic on their engines that are difficult to replace when the time comes. Crazy engineering and planned obsolescence if you ask me.

Lol please do! I mean I don't want to hate on the Germans. Their cars are super fun to drive. I mean the SLS is unreal. The excitement of driving that I have never experienced in my life with any other car. But at the same time the car is only fun to drive if you have it with you. If it's in the shop or going to cost you an arm and a leg what the hell is the point. I leased my GS because that fit better in the budget and I hope to be able to afford a new one when the lease is up but guess what if I can't afford a new one or just don't want to I have no problem with keeping my GS after the lease with no worries of it breaking on me or anything like that.

Now on the ugly part?? What come on! Same boring German design is better? My bad don't mean to hate on anything ! Tell her if she does really well you will get her the LC hybrid! Best looking car under 100k and there is no debate!

 

[GNS]

Going to show your post James to my daughter in her first year of university.

I told her we'd get a nice enough car if she successfully completes her co-op work terms and graduate from her program.

I gave her some ideas, which was probably my mistake but I did emphasize BEV and not any German ICEV-- either a BEV A3 derivative or a BEV Macan lol. This was a few weeks ago.

Earlier this week, I told her I will likely settle for a 4IS hybrid, hopefully with eAWD. She scoffed and said they are so ugly.

I told her I'm okay with the German cars as long as she will pay for the servicing and she seemed okay with the idea. This is someone who had just one or two years of part-time work before university and doesn't have any savings.

In the end, it's my wife and my money so I will decide for the best of the household's finances. It's absurd for German car makers to use a lot of high quality plastic on their engines that are difficult to replace when the time comes. Crazy engineering and planned obsolescence if you ask me.

German cars are made for the 3 year lease. Not only that, BMWs in particular were royally screwed back in 2007 when Herbert Diess was in charge of purchasing. He squeezed 4 billion Euros out of the suppliers in the course of a few years, and you don't do that without suppliers cutting corners on parts quality. After he left and became VW's current CEO, there is just no way you can go back to the suppliers and tell them to make better quality parts because the 4b Euros have already been spent.

My impression of German cars is that they're very fast, very luxurious, have great styling (mostly, except for the butt ugly M340i's plastic fantastic grille) and amazing brand recognition. But there is just no way that all these stories of German cars falling apart after 3 - 5 years can all be false, there has to be an element of truth in there.

 

[James]

German cars are made for the 3 year lease. Not only that, BMWs in particular were royally screwed back in 2007 when Herbert Diess was in charge of purchasing. He squeezed 4 billion Euros out of the suppliers in the course of a few years, and you don't do that without suppliers cutting corners on parts quality. After he left and became VW's current CEO, there is just no way you can go back to the suppliers and tell them to make better quality parts because the 4b Euros have already been spent.

My impression of German cars is that they're very fast, very luxurious, have great styling (mostly, except for the butt ugly M340i's plastic fantastic grille) and amazing brand recognition. But there is just no way that all these stories of German cars falling apart after 3 - 5 years can all be false, there has to be an element of truth in there.

Like I said from my experience I have seen a lot from the outside in, so not my cars but I have driven all of them during their life cycle and while there are multiple cars they seem to be in the shop so much more than my Camry ever was, my wife's NX, or my GS. I don't have the miles on the Lexus's yet but my parent's Lexus both have over 160k on it and they work wonders. Honestly my in laws have a Toyota Siena with like 130k on it and their personal mechanic said that Siena will last longer than every single one of their German's lol.

But back to the post on the engines, if they don't lose reliability than use whatever you want but if you are going to lose reliability give it right back to the Germans! Is 0-60 in 5.6 seconds compared to 4.6 going to make that much difference in life not really besides bragging rights, which a good amount of people think about myself included. I am interested in seeing what engines Lexus hasn't released yet as we are still missing some in the chart. The TTV6 from the LS in the IS would be great for the F! Here's to hoping the next IS is the real deal in all aspects!

 

[internalaudit]

^ And most of us don't live in a developing country where a lot of households have family drivers to take these cars to the dealership/shop.

Time is gold.

I read one comment on a car enthusiast site that European car makers are obliged to use biodegradable plastic on major components. I am sure even Toyota/Lexus does too but probably not on critical components like the rail guide for the timing chain.


With some surface rust on suspension components just a few days after delivery (maybe it's Canadian winter salting), our 16 MIJ RAV4 Hybrid has been flawless.

We have an 02 Civic and 11 Accord coupe too. Former is a rust bucket and has some minor suspension issues (got a list of potential repair totaling $2k which I won't bother with since it's mainly for short city driving and will have to be scrapped eventually) while the latter still drives reasonably well.

I can't imagine spending a lot more on German marquees only to have to deal with issues, during and after the warranty period. My dad did have MB's in the past but I've mostly driven Honda's and since Toyota/Lexus is making better handling cars nowadays, I don't mind shifting to Lexus for my next car because I want RWD-biased (which Honda/Acura doesn't offer) and likely at least a hybrid car (Toyota makes the best) for the beltless design, which will likely result in lower total maintenance repair cost down the road).

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

I'm reminded of what Tetsuya Tada said about the Supra collaboration effort between BMW and Toyota engineers. He literally said that BMW engineers could not believe the amount and depth of testing that Toyota did on some of the parts, and that he had concerns that BMW was spending too much time and money on design and not enough on the other technical details that are just as important. He basically implied that BMW doesn't test or validate their work very well, and I believe it.

I've read an in-depth analysis of the B58 and that thing will be a nightmare after the warranty is done. The timing chain is on the back of the engine right against the firewall, and you just know that the plastic tensioners are going to let go at some point. The turbo has TWO pumps, you know, so you can have double the amount of parts to replace. There are two ways for the wastegate actuator to function (electrically actuated, vacuum actuated). It has VANOS tech, which I'm sure is super duper reliable. It has a dedicated heat management module thanks to the closed deck block.

It's basically a race engine literally crammed into a sedan's engine bay and made to work, no sh*ts given about long term reliability. No thanks, you can keep that trash where it belongs, in the service bay of BMW dealerships.

Woah there buddy slow down. All right no everything from the last sentence of your first paragraph to the end are all false.

I actually have no clue where did you get any of this information from. As a matter of fact I have been watching the development of the MkV Toyota Supra with a very close eye for several years. So naturally, I am familiar with what went on between Toyota and BMW. The majority of what you mentioned here is false.

"He basically implied that BMW doesn't test or validate their work very well, and I believe it."

I suggest you don't put words in Tada-san's mouth because that is not what he implied. He only simply said (like you said previous to that controversial statement) "He literally said that BMW engineers could not believe the amount and depth of testing that Toyota did on some of the parts, and that he had concerns that BMW was spending too much time and money on design and not enough on the other technical details......" and to that I can say is true and that has circulated within MkV Supra insiders for a long time as well. Otherwise, what you said after is completely and totally non-existent. And I repeat, Tada-san neither said or implied that at all.

"I've read an in-depth analysis of the B58 and that thing will be a nightmare after the warranty is done. The timing chain is on the back of the engine right against the firewall, and you just know that the plastic tensioners are going to let go at some point. The turbo has TWO pumps, you know, so you can have double the amount of parts to replace. There are two ways for the wastegate actuator to function (electrically actuated, vacuum actuated). It has VANOS tech, which I'm sure is super duper reliable. It has a dedicated heat management module thanks to the closed deck block."

*Sigh*. No. Just no. Never has a BMW I6 (or their V12's) has been unreliable like their V10, V8 or I4 engines. And on top of that, the B58 has immensely improved on top of the N55. The fact that it is closed deck, and the engine withstanding way more stress, turbo issues are essentially nil in the B58 and manages high boost pressure/fuel pressure/heat pressure unlike many other engines. I have a sense you're being sarcastic about VANOS, which to that I say they have come a long way. It is relatively bulletproof and they've really upped the ante in terms of quality. And hey, I'm the biggest Toyota/Lexus nut you have ever seen. But I will NEVER be intentionally subjective. The plastic tensioners, I hear that's an issue but I highly doubt that's a big deal, and no way will this thing be a nightmare after warranty. I am one who loves and appreciates reliable cars, and damn well that both of us know that this will last way more than previous BMW engines. Engine reliability (especially in I6 and V12 vehicles) have always been bulletproof relative to their biggest issue which is electronics and software.

"It's basically a race engine literally crammed into a sedan's engine bay and made to work, no sh*ts given about long term reliability. No thanks, you can keep that trash where it belongs, in the service bay of BMW dealerships."

Again. You're saying as if they've stuffed a Corvette racing engine in the engine bay of a 1990 Honda Civic Hatchback. For sure, its tech and architecture has been derived from race engine (or to put it simply the high technology parts and engineering from a racing engine), but long term reliability has been in mind because if it wasn't, no way in hell would they make it closed deck, bother to improve on the VANOS system, and make it stronger than before. Sure, it isn't a Lexus engine but for itself, for BMW, not only is it improved in terms of reliability when comparing against a company like Lexus, but they have come a long way (still not even close to Lexus' level) and have become better in trying to make their cars more dependable.

Now now, let's make this relevant to us. Now what is good for BMW may probably not be good for Toyota. They have made sure every single part from the biggest engine parts to something as small as a nut and bolt can withstand pressure tests. Some passed, some didn't and as a result the engine should be godly. There is also a reason why that Toyota did the tuning of the ECU and did all the software work themselves, supplied their own turbo, supplied their own fuel/oil pumps for the engines and have done crucial tweaks to make this engine a true successor to the 2JZ. And my god it is a successor. To those who whine about the 2JZ not being in the MkV Supra every 5 hours, complaining how it isn't a carbon copy of the MkIV, and this next common comment makes me the angriest the most about idiots who comment on this car and that is how they "ruined" it, need to show themselves the door on their way out and hand over their car enthusiast card. And plus, I made this argument before, think of this car as the NA MkIV Supra to give you guys some better context. We will have a "Turbo" coming, in the form of a GRMN. Now what's going to make that thing go? People are thinking it's either the B58 and Toyota will continue to improve on it and make it better or take the S58 engine. To close, we all know why Toyota made a deal with BMW (actually BMW approached Toyota) and I don't need to explain it.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As for the IS, this report couldn't get anymore bull-f*cking-sh*t and it shows how short-sighted some organizations/people are. Simple as that. NO WAY IN HELL would that even happen. Why tf would they develop so many amazing engines that are coming in the future just to then use an I6 from BMW in their cars? Why would they even think of that? How would they even come to that conclusion and think of that? It's insane, it's stupid and whoever wrote that should have thought of that fact first among infinites of other explanations. Rant over.

 

[ssun30]

I'm reminded of what Tetsuya Tada said about the Supra collaboration effort between BMW and Toyota engineers. He literally said that BMW engineers could not believe the amount and depth of testing that Toyota did on some of the parts, and that he had concerns that BMW was spending too much time and money on design and not enough on the other technical details that are just as important. He basically implied that BMW doesn't test or validate their work very well, and I believe it.

Funny how american buyers are so obsessed with 'power updates' with every new car release to the point 'no power bump' is usually quoted with a tone of disappointment by the media. The Germans are playing that game well by making frequent updates to rated power. This is just bad product engineering, they will never have stable specs for their suppliers, and in turn never have stable quality. IMO a decade is a good enough lifespan of a single engine family, with an update during mid-cycle refresh.

Making powerful engines is trivial. Making powerful engines that last is not.

That being said, there was a time when Toyota also update their engines literally every year to squeeze to most power out of them (think about how many A/S variants they had in the 80s and 90s, crazy times). But that's because they had infinite amount of cash during the Bubble Era and the engines are so over-engineered they will not be feasible in today's economy.

As for the IS, this report couldn't get anymore bull-f*cking-sh*t and it shows how short-sighted some organizations/people are. Simple as that. NO WAY IN HELL would that even happen. Why tf would they develop so many amazing engines that are coming in the future just to then use an I6 from BMW in their cars? Why would they even think of that? How would they even come to that conclusion and think of that? It's insane, it's stupid and whoever wrote that should have thought of that fact first among infinites of other explanations. Rant over.

This. I think this speculation is so low quality that it shouldn't even belong on the frontpage. Those people are literally talking out of their rear. @krew

 

[GNS]

https://club4ag.com/chief-engineer-...gh-a-viewpoint-of-joint-development-with-bmw/

^ interview linked above.

I'm not putting words in his mouth. I never said that he said BMW sucks at testing and at making things reliable. But I'm certain he intended to imply it. I'm sure you also read that interview. Why would he bother to bring up something like that and point out two oddly specific examples of where BMW and Toyota engineers differ in their R&D processes? The first being the huge amount of effort on design to the point where he started to wonder if he could even sell this product profitably, immediately followed by the BMW people being astounded by the testing processes that Toyota was conducting, even going so far as to say that it was 'normal' for them (Toyota) to do something like that. He made himself quite clear on that, where he said that BMW 'couldn't believe' some of the quality and efficiency studies that Toyota did on the parts as they came into shape.

He was pointing out that the allocation of effort / resources were not at all what either side expected. BMW spent way more on design, Toyota spent way more on testing and validation. The key word for me was 'normal', as in how normal it was for Toyota to put the parts through the wringer and break them down into each bolt and fastener and ship the whole lot back to Japan for further analysis. It was, therefore, abnormal for BMW to do that level of testing.

If he didn't want to imply anything, he could have said that they had language barrier differences, cultural quirks, and left it at that but he didn't.

As for the BMW engines and them being reliable, I have several co-workers with 335is and one of them has a last gen M3. Don't know about the M3 guy, but the 335i guys have N54 and N55 engines. N54 guy had to replace the hpfp, a water pump and some hose (that he mentioned in passing). He thinks he'll have to do his turbo next. N55 guy also had hpfp replaced, something went on his VANOS (or maybe he preemptively replaced it) and now he's suspecting that it burns oil.

 

[Gecko]

Hey guys, lets get this back to the 4th gen IS.

Thanks.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

Last point on the German service...I have taken my boss's like 2017 S class to benz because the S fell off on the back name plate and after I paid for a new one they said here you to put it on yourself...this is $100,000 car you aren't going to do it for me?

By way of contrast, about a year ago I had a small plastic trim piece fall off of my 2015 LS460 (one of the two above the rear window next to the third brake light). It was likely my fault since I'd hit it pretty hard with an ice scraper, but the dealer replaced it free of charge, no questions asked when the car was in for the next oil change.

Regarding the 4IS in particular, I like the render but putting the B58 into it would likely imply (as it did on the Supra) that all the electronics and interior would be primarily BMW as well, and I think that's a non-starter.

 

[internalaudit]

Maybe this is a repeat of what was already posted but I recall 2022 being discussed.

https://www.motor1.com/news/306233/lexus-is-supra-bmw-engine/

Lexus is expected to introduce the fourth generation of its BMW 3 Series rival in the latter half of 2020, with plans to have the sporty sedan on sale in the United States for the 2021MY. A year later, the IS F will likely join the range.

 

[FearTheYu]

The partnership with Subaru and Toyota on the FRS (now-86) came out to be a stunner. At least both companies were Japanese. Having German engine in a Lexus or Toyota, as a purest seems odd. It doesn't make it Japanese, which has a good track record with reliability, and stunned the automotive world in doing so. Having a BMW most likely tuned a little less would increase reliability, but that just says the heart of the car is German. Nothing wrong with that, but it makes the purist in me say, Well, maybe I should go work for BMW? Ghastly iDrive dial that I personally don't like and some of their newer styling is not for me. I preferred their older generation styling...I get guests owning our cars for multiple generations of our cars and they prefer to have the Japanese engine(s) engineering and inherent all the quirks. It's what makes us unique!

 

[CT2IS]

Came in here to mirror silver f1 arrows.

A lot of you Lexus fanboys who usually pump their fists and get all tribal and gang-member style on anything that is german (particularly BMW) usually do not know what you are talking about.

First off--I'm a hardcore Lexus guy. I own two new ones. Currently. How many do you own? Currently. Lets get that out of the way.

The B58 or any BMW straight six for that matter is not unreliable. You fanboys are taking the overall german-not-reliable reputation (rightfully deserved in many cases) and blanketly applying it to anything BMW. The recent V8s and V10s are largely where this reliability stigma comes from.

I've owned several straight six BMWs, all six figures, some mid twos. Without a single breakdown. Absolute platinum reliability. A country's flag or color of one's skin does not make a car unreliable. Lets think objectively here instead of resorting to brand tribalism.

The B58 is actually the reverse of what you think. It's extremely stout and extremely reliable. I mean extreme. It is overbuilt. Not perfect, but built. Do not discount it based merely on "OH NOES ITS THE OTHER SIDE, WE MUST SHOW OUR TESTOSTERONE AND HATE FOR THE GERMANS--ATTACK!!"

Please. That's juvenile. Don't do that. Be open minded and objective. Give credit to where it's due. A great product is a great product regardless of what uniform or colors are behind it. Had enough of this fanboy mentality no matter where it comes from. But it's usually extremely strong and biased on the Japanese car side. Like they've got something to prove so they're overcompensating with even extra anger. Not good.

Both companies are capable of making outstanding products. Celebrate your fellow human beings when they achieve something great instead of chastising them for the country they are from and because it goes against the team you root for. It's just a car. Chillax. Also don't take for granted that the reason Lexus has been so brilliantly reliable for decades is because they've been using and recycling old tech. Today the market demands turbo power, complicated infotainment and lots of gadgets. To compete, Lexus must include these features. The more we go on in time we're going to see this reliability naturally and inherently take a hit. Growing pains.

The B58 being used in the 4IS makes a lot of sense. It has an inherent smoothness and power delivery about it that you are simply not getting in a V6. This would put the IS in a high league with minimal research and development costs on Lexus's part. Also BMW could benefit since a lot of dollars went into developing this engine. Everyone would come out a winner.

In this market Mercedes and BMW (The two main competitors) will have their own straight six turbo.

Don't forget Infiniti uses Mercedes-Benz power. It's not unheard of. All you guys are thinking Lexus hats, Lexus tattoos, Lexus uniforms. But the boys up in the boardrooms of these companies are thinking of delivering a great product and making money.

Sure Lexus could develop their own turbo I6 but that would take generations to get to refine it to a point where BMW is with their straight sixes today. That stuff doesn't happen overnight.

The current TT v6 in the LS is low-volume and maybe it's not ready for primetime in a high volume car as the IS. we'll see.

Either way,

Lexus knows that they can no longer bring a knife to a gun fight. Even if it means borrowing someone else's gun.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

Sure Lexus could develop their own turbo I6 but that would take generations to get to refine it to a point where BMW is with their straight sixes today. That stuff doesn't happen overnight.

Lexus is actually one of the few companies where that stuff *could've* happened overnight if the bean counters had allowed it. Say it with me: "Three Jay Zee".

Since we live in an imperfect bean-countery world it of course makes sense to go to BMW for an I6. It's not like FCA is gonna start making Slant Sixes again (even though they should). I do think it's a valid concern that such an IS would have virtually nothing in common with either the ES or LS. No Safety System 2.0, no free CarPlay and Android Auto, and so on.