The Future of the IS Thread

[mikeavelli]

FYI, anytime cars share platforms, weight goes up and the smaller cars get hurt the most. Also the next IS will surely add more luxury and that is never light.

I don't think the Lexus owner cares one bit about weight and most cars weigh a ton now anyway. What will matter is looks, price, interior and more engine options.

The elephant in the room is the Tesla Model 3 currently selling like mad and people are so enthused about the car its crazy. Lexus needs to offer hybrids with the IS next generation and some damn good ones as well as an electric option.

 

[Craig Smith]

 

[Craig Smith]

 

[sl0519]

View attachment 3025

I assume this is only an imagination by the editor right?

 

[Gecko]

I really like that render... an evolution of 3IS with some LS/LC mixed in. Who is it from? If it's from someone like Best Car, I say that's probably pretty accurate since they were 95% right with their RX, LS and ES renders.

 

[Gecko]

I think people complaining (especially the people at ClubLexus) about the power within the 8AR Lexus IS300 don't really understand the point of the Lexus IS300.
The Lexus IS300 has always been a competitor to the Infiniti Q50 2.0T, BMW 320i, and the Audi A4 FWD Ultra. Its pretty much the "cheaper" entry-level model to their RWD luxury sedan. The Lexus IS300, within that competition, is the better car out of all of them. It doesn't need a power upgrade nor much. It just need to relatively stay in cheaper end in terms of price.
If Toyota up the power of the Lexus IS300 too much, it'll push the vehicle into 330i/Audi A4 Quattro competition, which is where the Lexus IS350 competes.
Toyota needs to keep the Lexus IS300 low on power to stay the entry-level model - especially since - within the Lexus IS line - the Lexus IS300 is their money maker for the car.

Secondly - the Lexus IS350 - competes with the 330i, Audi A4 Quattro, Infiniti Q50 Silver Sport and the C300. I do find it odd people keep comparing the Lexus IS350 to cars like the S4, 340i, Q50 Red Sport and C43 AMG. The Lexus IS350 doesn't compete there. Within the competition the Lexus IS350 competes in currently, its the second fastest car. Its still relatively a competitive engine.

This is why I think - the TTV6 will either come to the Lexus IS in two ways. Either a new Lexus "IS400" or the return of the "IS-F". Giving the fact that Toyota is a bunch of bean-counters, they'll probably produce a Lexus IS-F before a Lexus IS400. I think this because people who buy a Lexus IS tends to buy the Lexus IS300 anyways. The Lexus IS400, much like the M340i, are a niche sale. They'll probably pull more IS-F sales than IS400 sales.

Just because the 330i weighs below 3.6 pounds doesn't mean the Lexus IS will. Didn't Lexus spokesperson say somewhere before they are planning to stop following the Germans and doing their own thing?
4K pounds is not too heavy to compete in the segment. The Infiniti Q50 is almost 4K pounds.

With all due respect... this reeks of excuses for Lexus' lack of innovation and progress while the entire class has moved forward around them. IS 300 has always been compared to 2.0T versions of 3er, C and A4. IS 350 has always been compared to 6 cyl 335i/340i, C350 before it vanished, Q50 V6, etc. The problem is that everyone else has introduced newer versions of all of their engines, as well as new high performance variants, which has put Lexus' outdated engines in a strange "in-between" place. The competitive set for IS 300 was never 320i, like the competitive set for IS 350 was never 325i/330i. This has just become the case because Lexus has not done anything to help the IS during it's lifecycle.

Next time around, IS needs a refined 2.0T as well as some engine variant with ~400hp. IS with 2.0T will compete against 330i, C300, A4 2.0T, etc. IS with ~400hp will compete against 340i, C43 AMG, S4, etc. IS F needs to have 500hp+ to compete with M3, C63, etc.

 

[krew]

krew

Rendered: The Next-Generation Lexus IS Sedan

Let the photochop games begin.

View the original article post

 

[spwolf]

krew

Rendered: The Next-Generation Lexus IS Sedan

View the original article post

Japanese actually shiw petrol engine specs separwtely for hybrids, so those numbers seem right.

Not sure how does the weight compare to current Japanese measurements of is400h?

 

[joepac]

View attachment 3025

Yeah... No thanks...

 

[Sakura]

With all do respect... this reeks of excuses for Lexus' lack of innovation and progress while the entire class has moved forward around them. IS 300 has always been compared to 2.0T versions of 3er, C and A4. IS 350 has always been compared to 6 cyl 335i/340i, C350 before it vanished, Q50 V6, etc. The problem is that everyone else has introduced newer versions of all of their engines, as well as new high performance variants, which has put Lexus' outdated engines in a strange "in-between" place. The competitive set for IS 300 was never 320i, like the competitive set for IS 350 was never 325i/330i. This has just become the case because Lexus has not done anything to help the IS during it's lifecycle.

Next time around, IS needs a refined 2.0T as well as some engine variant with ~400hp. IS with 2.0T will compete against 330i, C300, A4 2.0T, etc. IS with ~400hp will compete against 340i, C43 AMG, S4, etc. IS F needs to have 500hp+ to compete with M3, C63, etc.

Of course, all respect going around, this is just a friendly chat.

In the past - the Lexus IS250 has always marked as the base-level entry level buy while the IS350 was the top trim. Essentially - there is 2 trims levels similarity at the time - the Germans (BMW) had two trim levels too (328i and 335i).
However - has time passed. BMW's 335i gotten faster thus creating a "Pre-M" "Pre-AMG" "Pre-Sports model car" competition. So then BMW needed cars to fill the lower void, that's when the 320i and 330i came in.
This in turn make the Lexus IS300 and IS350 change the competition they are in. We can't assume competition is always fixed. As in - if they competed there before - they gotta compete there again.

So its not that the Lexus IS300 doesn't compete with the BMW 320i or the Lexus IS350 doesn't compete with the 330i - is that Lexus doesn't have a car to compete with the M340i, C43 AMG, S4, and Red Sport Q50.
^ ---The only way for this to happen is if they offered a "IS400". If they decide to push the IS300 and IS350 up the scale, it would effectively make both cars more expensive. Meaning they are shooting over the Lexus ES price-line. Lexus has always kept the IS/ES price relatively close together. Also - it cost more in development to change 2 engine specs rather than introducing one new engine option.
This is why - I think the IS300/IS350 will remain unchanged. Its either they introduce a "IS400" or the return of the IS-F. This is the most business savvy and "bean-counter" way to do it.

But then again - my money is on the IS-F because:
They have been quoted many times they aren't going to chase the Germans anymore. From a car enthusiasts perspective, I would love a TTV6 IS400. I'll buy it the day of. But would the mass public? Probably not. Like most 3 Series - the most sold is the low-end 3 Series.
This is why I think a TTV6 IS-F is more likely - its more bean-counter.

 

[joepac]

Of course, all respect going around, this is just a friendly chat.

In the past - the Lexus IS250 has always marked as the base-level entry level buy while the IS350 was the top trim. Essentially - there is 2 trims levels similarity at the time - the Germans (BMW) had two trim levels too (328i and 335i).
However - has time passed. BMW's 335i gotten faster thus creating a "Pre-M" "Pre-AMG" "Pre-Sports model car" competition. So then BMW needed cars to fill the lower void, that's when the 320i and 330i came in.
This in turn make the Lexus IS300 and IS350 change the competition they are in. We can't assume competition is always fixed. As in - if they competed there before - they gotta compete there again.

So its not that the Lexus IS300 doesn't compete with the BMW 320i or the Lexus IS350 doesn't compete with the 330i - is that Lexus doesn't have a car to compete with the M340i, C43 AMG, S4, and Red Sport Q50.
^ ---The only way for this to happen is if they offered a "IS400". If they decide to push the IS300 and IS350 up the scale, it would effectively make both cars more expensive. Meaning they are shooting over the Lexus ES price-line. Lexus has always kept the IS/ES price relatively close together. Also - it cost more in development to change 2 engine specs rather than introducing one new engine option.
This is why - I think the IS300/IS350 will remain unchanged. Its either they introduce a "IS400" or the return of the IS-F. This is the most business savvy and "bean-counter" way to do it.

But then again - my money is on the IS-F because:
They have been quoted many times they aren't going to chase the Germans anymore. From a car enthusiasts perspective, I would love a TTV6 IS400. I'll buy it the day of. But would the mass public? Probably not. Like most 3 Series - the most sold is the low-end 3 Series.
This is why I think a TTV6 IS-F is more likely - its more bean-counter.

Wasn't that what the IS350 Fsport was for? The "Pre-Sport Model" as you put it? Lexus has failed in this arena. I think the Fsport is a flop because the performance just wasn't there. When my bro in law's 428 MSport runs circles around the 3IS350 Fsport (my 2IS350 is only slightly faster than his)proves that lexus has dropped the ball and got left behind.

The TTV6 would serve well to fill that pre F gap and have the ISF be ridiculously competitive if not dominant. I say boost the IS200t output to about 270hp Is300 at 300hp IS400 Fsport at 385-400hp and the ISF at 500hp+ then Lexus can take the reigns but now Lexus is not even in the conversation.

Hell Alfa Romeo came in with a sick entrant in the Giulia QF (I wouldn't buy one though for its reliability issues).

Lexus needs to step up or get left out

Now I know I'm just dreaming with what I posted above though lol... One can dream...

 

[Sakura]

Wasn't that what the IS350 Fsport was for? The "Pre-Sport Model" as you put it? Lexus has failed in this arena. I think the Fsport is a flop because the performance just wasn't there. When my bro in law's 428 MSport runs circles around the 3IS350 Fsport (my 2IS350 is only slightly faster than his)proves that lexus has dropped the ball and got left behind.

The TTV6 would serve well to fill that pre F gap and have the ISF be ridiculously competitive if not dominant. I say boost the IS200t output to about 270hp Is300 at 300hp IS400 Fsport at 385-400hp and the ISF at 500hp+ then Lexus can take the reigns but now Lexus is not even in the conversation.

Hell Alfa Romeo came in with a sick entrant in the Giulia QF (I wouldn't buy one though for its reliability issues).

Lexus needs to step up or get left out

Now I know I'm just dreaming with what I posted above though lol... One can dream...

No. The IS350 F-Sport isn't what I was referring to as the "Pre-Sport model". When I was talking about the "Pre-Sport Model", I was talking about the car that is before the M/AMG type cars. IE: M340i is the Pre-M3 and C43 AMG is the pre C63 AMG.

"F-Sport" has always been a exterior dress up package, like the AMG Line and M-Sport package. They hold no performance upgrades.

Per BMW's official website - the 2019 BMW 430i runs a 0-60 time of 5.5 seconds while the 2019 Lexus IS350 runs a 5.6 second. I wouldn't consider that "running circles". The cars are pretty evenly matched, considering the Lexus IS350 is cheaper.

So you are asking for a: Lexus IS300 at 270HP
Lexus IS350 at 300HP
and Lexus IS400 at 385-400HP?

Why would they do that when the Lexus IS350 is over 300HP? This is why I think they'll keep the 8AR/2GR the same while introducing the "IS400" with the TTV6. Its the cheapest way to do it.
If you increase the power of the IS300, IS350, and also introduce a IS400, it'll cost money to do and cost more for all of the cars. Toyota are a bunch of bean-counters. They'll refuse to do this. The likely more business efficient way is to just introduce the IS400, if they do it.

Yes - we are all dreaming. Not just you - I want a IS400 too. And a TTV6 as well. I would buy it the day of release. However - I'm trying to stay realistic to what Toyota is, which is a slow moving company.
The Germans already passed Toyota/Lexus when Toyota introduced the 3G Lexus IS. When they refused to change the engine in the 2014 model and then barely changed it in the 2016 model. It shows they don't care. It shows they know what their demographics is and what will sell. This is why the Lexus ES for the 2019 model didn't get an "exclusive" Lexus engine and kept the simple V6. (Yes, yes. I know its based on the Camry/Avalon. However - they can still change up the engine for the Lexus model - especially since how they brag about how the Lexus ES will compete against the C300/A4/3 Series in the press release) They didn't change it because they know it'll still sell regardless. Like how the 2014 Lexus IS sold almost the same number of cars with the engine being the same engine as the 2006 Lexus IS. Crazy, right?

View attachment 3025

Chances are that the headlights might look like that. Its similar to the RC facelift design and UX design.
Personally - I'm not too big of a fan on the new headlight designs. I hope they introduce something newer on the IS rather than copying the RC/UX.

 

[joepac]

No. The IS350 F-Sport isn't what I was referring to as the "Pre-Sport model". When I was talking about the "Pre-Sport Model", I was talking about the car that is before the M/AMG type cars. IE: M340i is the Pre-M3 and C43 AMG is the pre C63 AMG.

"F-Sport" has always been a exterior dress up package, like the AMG Line and M-Sport package. They hold no performance upgrades.

Per BMW's official website - the 2019 BMW 430i runs a 0-60 time of 5.5 seconds while the 2019 Lexus IS350 runs a 5.6 second. I wouldn't consider that "running circles". The cars are pretty evenly matched, considering the Lexus IS350 is cheaper.

So you are asking for a: Lexus IS300 at 270HP
Lexus IS350 at 300HP
and Lexus IS400 at 385-400HP?

Why would they do that when the Lexus IS350 is over 300HP? This is why I think they'll keep the 8AR/2GR the same while introducing the "IS400" with the TTV6. Its the cheapest way to do it.
If you increase the power of the IS300, IS350, and also introduce a IS400, it'll cost money to do and cost more for all of the cars. Toyota are a bunch of bean-counters. They'll refuse to do this. The likely more business efficient way is to just introduce the IS400, if they do it.

Yes - we are all dreaming. Not just you - I want a IS400 too. And a TTV6 as well. I would buy it the day of release. However - I'm trying to stay realistic to what Toyota is, which is a slow moving company.
The Germans already passed Toyota/Lexus when Toyota introduced the 3G Lexus IS. When they refused to change the engine in the 2014 model and then barely changed it in the 2016 model. It shows they don't care. It shows they know what their demographics is and what will sell. This is why the Lexus ES for the 2019 model didn't get an "exclusive" Lexus engine and kept the simple V6. (Yes, yes. I know its based on the Camry/Avalon. However - they can still change up the engine for the Lexus model - especially since how they brag about how the Lexus ES will compete against the C300/A4/3 Series in the press release) They didn't change it because they know it'll still sell regardless. Like how the 2014 Lexus IS sold almost the same number of cars with the engine being the same engine as the 2006 Lexus IS. Crazy, right?

No, I said boost the IS200t output to about 270hp Is300 at 300hp IS400 Fsport at 385-400hp and the ISF at 500hp+ but I'm sure the bean counters won't do this.

I may have used hyperbole with "runs circles" but the fact remains that the 428 MSport is supposed to be on the level of the IS200t Fsport (or vice versa being the "entry level" model though a 328msport will prob be better comparison with same results) though that's why I brought up the comparison to the 350 because the lower model BMW (428) already beats the higher Model Lexus (350).

I was going to buy a 2014 IS350 Fsport but couldn't see how it is much better than my 2IS350,theb thought about the RCF but it's a porker. Was waiting on the next ISF or if (please God) they come out with a TTV6 I'll be standing in Line with you! Lol


You are right though lexus doesn't care about the enthusiast as long as blue hair realtors continue to buy their RX and ES models.

 

[Sakura]

No, I said boost the IS200t output to about 270hp Is300 at 300hp IS400 Fsport at 385-400hp and the ISF at 500hp+ but I'm sure the bean counters won't do this.

I may have used hyperbole with "runs circles" but the fact remains that the 428 MSport is supposed to be on the level of the IS200t Fsport (or vice versa being the "entry level" model though a 328msport will prob be better comparison with same results) though that's why I brought up the comparison to the 350 because the lower model BMW (428) already beats the higher Model Lexus (350).

I was going to buy a 2014 IS350 Fsport but couldn't see how it is much better than my 2IS350,theb thought about the RCF but it's a porker. Was waiting on the next ISF or if (please God) they come out with a TTV6 I'll be standing in Line with you! Lol


You are right though lexus doesn't care about the enthusiast as long as blue hair realtors continue to buy their RX and ES models.

I think there is a bit of confusion here. The Lexus IS200T doesn't exist anymore. Its called the Lexus IS300.
Essentially - what Lexus has now is a Lexus IS200T, a detuned V6 IS300 AWD, and a Lexus IS350.

The thing is - we keep looking at it from comparing it to BMW or MB perspective. We have to stop looking at it that way, is where I'm getting at. People are saying Lexus fell behind because BMW line up changed and Lexus should reflect that.
What happened is - BMW's 335i became too fast and turned into the 340i - which is pretty much the "Pre-M car". This left BMW with two voids to fill at the lower end. That's why they created the 320i and 330i for the US market which is the Lexus IS200T(300)/350 competitor. Its like this because Lexus doesn't have a 340i competitor anymore.

If Lexus introduced a IS400, it would effectively compete with the new M340i. The M340i is rumored to have 380hp/369tq. Lexus IS400 can copy that 100% with a detuned TTV6 from the LS.
While at the same time, keeping the Lexus IS350 (with the 2GR engine) as it is to compete with the 330i.
While also at the same time, keeping the Lexus IS300 (8AR turbo) as it is to compete in the entry-level market range. (A4 Ultra, 2.0T Infiniti, and the base-level I4 TLX)

The point is - its likely the 8AR and 2GR will still stay the same because nothing really needs to be done to those to keep it relatively competitive to the low/mid tier options.

Think of the 8AR as the BMW 318i/320i in Europe. The entry-level base model that gets people into the brand. I think we are all pushing ourselves up a tier effectively by comparing the Lexus IS300 to something it never competed against in the first place.
From a price, performance and amenities stand-point, the Lexus IS300 (formerly the 200T) never competed against the 328i/428i. Because they were more similar to the IS350.

 

[joepac]

I think there is a bit of confusion here. The Lexus IS200T doesn't exist anymore. Its called the Lexus IS300.
Essentially - what Lexus has now is a Lexus IS200T, a detuned V6 IS300 AWD, and a Lexus IS350.

The thing is - we keep looking at it from comparing it to BMW or MB perspective. We have to stop looking at it that way, is where I'm getting at. People are saying Lexus fell behind because BMW line up changed and Lexus should reflect that.
What happened is - BMW's 335i became too fast and turned into the 340i - which is pretty much the "Pre-M car". This left BMW with two voids to fill at the lower end. That's why they created the 320i and 330i for the US market which is the Lexus IS200T(300)/350 competitor. Its like this because Lexus doesn't have a 340i competitor anymore.

If Lexus introduced a IS400, it would effectively compete with the new M340i. The M340i is rumored to have 380hp/369tq. Lexus IS400 can copy that 100% with a detuned TTV6 from the LS.
While at the same time, keeping the Lexus IS350 (with the 2GR engine) as it is to compete with the 330i.
While also at the same time, keeping the Lexus IS300 (8AR turbo) as it is to compete in the entry-level market range. (A4 Ultra, 2.0T Infiniti, and the base-level I4 TLX)

The point is - its likely the 8AR and 2GR will still stay the same because nothing really needs to be done to those to keep it relatively competitive to the low/mid tier options.

Think of the 8AR as the BMW 318i/320i in Europe. The entry-level base model that gets people into the brand. I think we are all pushing ourselves up a tier effectively by comparing the Lexus IS300 to something it never competed against in the first place.
From a price, performance and amenities stand-point, the Lexus IS300 (formerly the 200T) never competed against the 328i/428i. Because they were more similar to the IS350.

Ahhh yes right again. I forgot lexus changed their nomenclature.

Yes I think we are on the same page. Lexus needs the TTV6 in the IS lineup to compete but we'll see how it goes.

 

[spwolf]

The competitive set for IS 300 was never 320i, like the competitive set for IS 350 was never 325i/330i. This has just become the case because Lexus has not done anything to help the IS during it's lifecycle.

Next time around, IS needs a refined 2.0T as well as some engine variant with ~400hp. IS with 2.0T will compete against 330i, C300, A4 2.0T, etc. IS with ~400hp will compete against 340i, C43 AMG, S4, etc. IS F needs to have 500hp+ to compete with M3, C63, etc.

So you think that buyers dont compare prices of the cars but rather numbers of the back? So they compare 5k-10k more expensive 3 series to similar numbered 3IS?

Not sure about that...

IS will never be successful as 3/C/A4 because these guys have huge European/German market where they are fleet vehicles like Camry... amount of sales they do, which enables them to do many other things with it, is simply different to IS... Lexus has that with ES, RX and NX... and will likely never have it with IS.

That does not mean that IS cant be good competitor to C/3/A4... New 3 is nothing special at all. If Lexus released a vehicle with such all-plastic interior it would have been called a dead brand, instead you have same people who harp on Lexus for not having enough wood, love silver plastic in new 3. It is weird.

Most of the sales in this market happen on base models with base engines... Sure, Lexus needs to get smarter with PR and do IS500 F-Sport model so every journalist can test it and call it a great car... reality is that that engine, even if priced great vs similar BMW/C, will likely sell 5% of the IS sales.

Watching at Paris how BMW unveils their new 3 series, where every car is not only a top spec, but also with optional equipment and where maybe 1% of them will be like that in Europe, while at the same time Toyota shows new Rav4 mid-spec trips and Corolla with cloth seats... these are companies on completely different level of PR towards their customers.

 

[spwolf]

krew

Rendered: The Next-Generation Lexus IS Sedan

View the original article post

So checked Lexus IS300h in Japan.

New model compared to old:
- 6 hp extra from petrol engine
- 100kg less weight.

 

[bogglo]

if the GS is leaving, maybe we can expect a IS450h.

 

[ssun30]

if the GS is leaving, maybe we can expect a IS450h.

The Crown gets the 500h multistage. I'm 95% confident an IS500h is planned as the flagship (non-F) model outside of US.

 

[Sakura]

So you think that buyers dont compare prices of the cars but rather numbers of the back? So they compare 5k-10k more expensive 3 series to similar numbered 3IS?

Not sure about that...

IS will never be successful as 3/C/A4 because these guys have huge European/German market where they are fleet vehicles like Camry... amount of sales they do, which enables them to do many other things with it, is simply different to IS... Lexus has that with ES, RX and NX... and will likely never have it with IS.

That does not mean that IS cant be good competitor to C/3/A4... New 3 is nothing special at all. If Lexus released a vehicle with such all-plastic interior it would have been called a dead brand, instead you have same people who harp on Lexus for not having enough wood, love silver plastic in new 3. It is weird.

Most of the sales in this market happen on base models with base engines... Sure, Lexus needs to get smarter with PR and do IS500 F-Sport model so every journalist can test it and call it a great car... reality is that that engine, even if priced great vs similar BMW/C, will likely sell 5% of the IS sales.

Watching at Paris how BMW unveils their new 3 series, where every car is not only a top spec, but also with optional equipment and where maybe 1% of them will be like that in Europe, while at the same time Toyota shows new Rav4 mid-spec trips and Corolla with cloth seats... these are companies on completely different level of PR towards their customers.

This. When comparing a car, people think consideration of price, features, and performance. This all makes the thing relative to each other. This is why the Lexus IS200T (300) is seen as a competitor to the 320i. Within that competition, the Lexus IS is a much superior car.

Agreed. The Lexus IS will never be as sucessful as the 3/C/A4 because of the fleet cars you mentioned. Its not just in Europe/Germany. Here in the USA - we have rental 3 Series and C-Class. To match this on top of insane lease deals for stripper models, you'll sell tons.
This is not to say the Lexus IS is not a good car - it just doesn't benefit from fleet sales or good lease deals.
This is why I was saying earlier - Lexus highly doesn't care about the Lexus IS competition relative to the 3/C/A4. Because they know they'll never catch it. They are going to sell what they know they can sell to their target demographic.

Yup. Agreed and also true. A IS400 or IS500 F-Sport will be nothing but a PR and journalist opt. It'll do well in terms of reviews but the sales will be extremely low. This is one of the reasons why I think Toyota will do a IS-F rather than a IS400/500. Both a IS-F and IS400 will net low sales but I think Toyota will more likely produce the IS-F.
Its like - if both draw low sales - make the one that gets the best press.. which will be the IS-F with TTV6.

The thing is - BMW sells their cars like accessories. All of their showcase cars are top of the line while none of them will be at dealerships. Similarity to the Mercedes Benz.
I was a MB dealership earlier this month with my friend because hes car shopping. When he asked for a C300 with near loaded options, the sales rep told him we don't carry cars that are optioned that high.
Majority of MB/BMW cars are optioned very limited at dealers because that's what people buy.